Hi all, i am 95kg and learning gybe using 140l board. Do you think it would be time to downsize to 110l for example or I am better off staying with the current board until I learn the gybe. Is smaller narrower board easier to learn the gybe on?

Probably wont hurt you to keep at it with your current board as you know the board now. Down the road I would think you would have more enjoyable sessions on a smaller board. As for the gybe, learn to look where you are turning, move the front hand over your head as you turn, let go of the back fairly early, use a foil with lots of glide, use a mast that is not too short, when you do touch down gybes keep your feet in a place to keep the board balanced and move your weight somewhat to the tail to pivot the board around, enjoy those moments where you gybe and don't have to swim back to your board again

hey,

for me dropping from a 6foot board down to a 5"8 was a game changer and now im down to 5"3.
you think bigger would make it easier but go smaller it'll change your world !!!

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bspot68 said..
hey,

for me dropping from a 6foot board down to a 5"8 was a game changer and now im down to 5"3.
you think bigger would make it easier but go smaller it'll change your world !!!

That is until you try footswaps.
just do all new skills on a big board until you master it. Then go smaller I'd say. What are the gains of going smaller and smaller if you haven't mastered tacks, gybes and footswaps?

Thank you all, I can manage sometimes to gybe in one direction but never happens in the other direction- having problems steering with the feet, even when doing s turns I have impression that it is more wing that is turning the board rather than the toe or heel. My board is gong lance 140, it is 5'9

Smaller board makes it much much easier. Particularly if you choose boards narrower than wider. Windage and risk of touching rails diminish.
Foot swaps are also far easier with smaller boards than big ones (less real estate to mess up placement).

The only drawback of smaller board is water start and taxing when not on foil. If you go smaller choose to practice with stronger winds which will make take offs easier.

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Andrzej said..
Thank you all, I can manage sometimes to gybe in one direction but never happens in the other direction- having problems steering with the feet, even when doing s turns I have impression that it is more wing that is turning the board rather than the toe or heel. My board is gong lance 140, it is 5'9

Don't use your feet to turn,use your hips,
1:keep the board flat ,equal pressure on both feet
2:stand up straight centered over the board
3: initiate the turn with your hips ,look in the direction u want to go
your hips need to end up roughly 45 to the wind to get around still on foil when learning

I think it's really a toss of the coin. I felt the same when I was learning with a big 130L board. Your big board "may" be making your gybes difficult however your smaller board will definitely be harder to start again once you fall off. When you ask more experienced riders about board sizes I think alot of them forget that although small boards are advantageous in terms of manoverability, a learner will spend a lot of time in the water after every blown gybe trying to get going again. This is very energy sapping.
I think the best board that would benefit you at this stage would be a new DW style longer skinnier board. I think they are the perfect compromise for progression as they are very manouverable & quick to start. Now if you ask an experienced shortboarder about them that has never ridden one you will probably be greeted with scorn.
I am still trying to get my gybes around however my board progression has gone form 130L to 95L & now to a 7' 20inch wide 112L DW board. I find the DW board to be far superior to any I have ridden. They are remarkably agile & carve amazingly well yet start off so easily.

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Andrzej said..
Thank you all, I can manage sometimes to gybe in one direction but never happens in the other direction

I hear you. I also have one good jibe side and a bad one. On the good one, I can get a few flying jibes (including foot switch) in a row in good conditions, but on the bad side, the best I get are "cheater" jibes where the board stops turning when I'm downwind. I've developed the habit to then switch my feet right away, and shift my weight so the board pops right back up and completes the turn. I have no clue why one side works better than the other; I hope that Andy Brandt will see what's going on next week in Corpus Christi.

A few months back, I downsized my board by 25 liters, hoping that it would help me turn better. Sure enough, the smaller board reacts much quicker, but it did not help my jibes progress at all - quite the opposite. I eventually made progress after going back to the big board, and only returned to the smaller board after having some sessions with mostly dry jibes, and many foiled through (some clean, some with minimal water contact). I managed to jibe the smaller board after a couple of adjustment sessions, but I still have the same good side-bad side issue on the smaller board. Michel's tip above sounds about right - if you try to turn with foot pressure, it's very easy to stop turning. Another tip I've heard is to have a close look at what you're doing different on the two sides. Could be something simple like a slightly different foot placement.

When learning to jibe you will crash a lot. If you can keep going back on foil on the smaller board without losing too much energy (you have a good technique or you are very fit ) than a smaller board will make jibing and switching feet much easier.

I see peoples jibes progress when they alter their foil more than when they alter their board. Some foils, commonly beginner foils, are very stiff in the turns and while I ride 700-900cm foils daily, when I test out someones 1600-2400cm foil I often fall on the jibe because the foil moves at an unnatural pace in comparison to my bodies inclination.

So, don't commit to anything right away. Test out a few boards and test out a few foils and see if anything "clicks."

Yes, it's funny about good-side/bad-side. I am naturally left-footed (football, etc. when young). But now I'm 74 and learning wing-foiling, it has come back to me. At present, I'm learning to get up on foil and, blow me down, the problem has shown up again. I'm sure balance is mostly about strength and, because my left leg is stronger than my right, my port-side foiling (left foot forward) is better than my starboard-side. My conclusion was that I needed to strengthen my right leg. which I've been working on (duplicating the on-foil stand-up routine). That has helped narrow the gap between port and starboard. I'm hoping it will be effective when I eventually get to on-foil gybes!

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BWalnut said..
I see peoples jibes progress when they alter their foil more than when they alter their board. Some foils, commonly beginner foils, are very stiff in the turns and while I ride 700-900cm foils daily, when I test out someones 1600-2400cm foil I often fall on the jibe because the foil moves at an unnatural pace in comparison to my bodies inclination.

So, don't commit to anything right away. Test out a few boards and test out a few foils and see if anything "clicks."

I agree with you 100 percent the large axis SES foils or (similar in other brands )will keep the board super stable and with a low stall speed and will give you more time and stability to get consistent with your gybes. The board makes it easy to Re launch and touchdowns cheers Rich

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Andrzej said..
Thank you all, I can manage sometimes to gybe in one direction but never happens in the other direction- having problems steering with the feet, even when doing s turns I have impression that it is more wing that is turning the board rather than the toe or heel. My board is gong lance 140, it is 5'9

The one bit of advice that sorted out my gybes, particularly the steering problem half way round was from one of the youtube instructional videos and it was to imagine a flashlight strapped to your hip and keep pointing that flashlight where you want to go. If ever my gybe looks like not completing i still think of this and i somehow gets me around as you give a little extra twist to your leading hip which seems to do the trick!

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wind driven said..

Andrzej said..
Thank you all, I can manage sometimes to gybe in one direction but never happens in the other direction- having problems steering with the feet, even when doing s turns I have impression that it is more wing that is turning the board rather than the toe or heel. My board is gong lance 140, it is 5'9

The one bit of advice that sorted out my gybes, particularly the steering problem half way round was from one of the youtube instructional videos and it was to imagine a flashlight strapped to your hip and keep pointing that flashlight where you want to go. If ever my gybe looks like not completing i still think of this and i somehow gets me around as you give a little extra twist to your leading hip which seems to do the trick!

Interesting, would you have a link to this video?

Hey Andrzej,
I think a common problem a lot of learners have is not making progress and looking for a change of gear/equipment as the solution. I don't subscribe to this unless your gear is ancient or really poor performing. I've taught a lot of people now and as many in this post have said, changing gear might help, but if it doesn't (and it often doesn't) it will be an expensive experiment. More often than not it's technique related.
If you go to a smaller board, the risk is that the board doesnt make the difference and you end up having to get going on a much smaller and less stable board. You will likely go backwards and get really frustrated.
FWIW I don't think a smaller board makes gybing that much easier anyway. And I also think in some ways, the extra swing weight can be of benefit as it slows down the rotation allowing you to get your head around the gybe manouver with more time - which can be really good for learning. A faster rotating setup does not necessarily mean it will be easier if it's too twitchy for your ability. For advanced riders, yes board swing weight can make it easier. If you are set on a gear change, then I think the foil is a much more important component. Technique is by far the most important thing for gybe success.
Spend the time on your current board. Get your gybes nailed. Get your footswitches down pat. THEN think about changing your gear.

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Andrzej said..

wind driven said..

Andrzej said..
Thank you all, I can manage sometimes to gybe in one direction but never happens in the other direction- having problems steering with the feet, even when doing s turns I have impression that it is more wing that is turning the board rather than the toe or heel. My board is gong lance 140, it is 5'9

The one bit of advice that sorted out my gybes, particularly the steering problem half way round was from one of the youtube instructional videos and it was to imagine a flashlight strapped to your hip and keep pointing that flashlight where you want to go. If ever my gybe looks like not completing i still think of this and i somehow gets me around as you give a little extra twist to your leading hip which seems to do the trick!

Interesting, would you have a link to this video?

That's the old surfing adage. Look where you want to go and the board will follow.

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martyj4 said..
Hey Andrzej,
I think a common problem a lot of learners have is not making progress and looking for a change of gear/equipment as the solution. I don't subscribe to this unless your gear is ancient or really poor performing. I've taught a lot of people now and as many in this post have said, changing gear might help, but if it doesn't (and it often doesn't) it will be an expensive experiment. More often than not it's technique related.
If you go to a smaller board, the risk is that the board doesnt make the difference and you end up having to get going on a much smaller and less stable board. You will likely go backwards and get really frustrated.
FWIW I don't think a smaller board makes gybing that much easier anyway. And I also think in some ways, the extra swing weight can be of benefit as it slows down the rotation allowing you to get your head around the gybe manouver with more time - which can be really good for learning. A faster rotating setup does not necessarily mean it will be easier if it's too twitchy for your ability. For advanced riders, yes board swing weight can make it easier. If you are set on a gear change, then I think the foil is a much more important component. Technique is by far the most important thing for gybe success.
Spend the time on your current board. Get your gybes nailed. Get your footswitches down pat. THEN think about changing your gear.

Solid advice. 100% agree.

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martyj4 said..
Hey Andrzej,
I think a common problem a lot of learners have is not making progress and looking for a change of gear/equipment as the solution. I don't subscribe to this unless your gear is ancient or really poor performing. I've taught a lot of people now and as many in this post have said, changing gear might help, but if it doesn't (and it often doesn't) it will be an expensive experiment. More often than not it's technique related.
If you go to a smaller board, the risk is that the board doesnt make the difference and you end up having to get going on a much smaller and less stable board. You will likely go backwards and get really frustrated.
FWIW I don't think a smaller board makes gybing that much easier anyway. And I also think in some ways, the extra swing weight can be of benefit as it slows down the rotation allowing you to get your head around the gybe manouver with more time - which can be really good for learning. A faster rotating setup does not necessarily mean it will be easier if it's too twitchy for your ability. For advanced riders, yes board swing weight can make it easier. If you are set on a gear change, then I think the foil is a much more important component. Technique is by far the most important thing for gybe success.
Spend the time on your current board. Get your gybes nailed. Get your footswitches down pat. THEN think about changing your gear.

Thank you, makes a lot of sense, i was out today, one of the guys also learning had 110l board, it did not look like the smaller board doing him any good

Continuing on about gybing.....
My breakthrough moment was learning how to go into gybes toeside. So I had to learn the footswitch. Not saying this will definitely work for you but it might?
Going in toeside means that when you exit, youre riding heelside and it feels very easy to exit a gybe that way. Exiting toeside can be tricky as you need to get sail away angles and wing sheeting correct, all in an awkward stance. Find some flat water, and practice foot switches first. Practice riding toeside whenever you can. It's a skill you'll need to have at some point in time, so learn it early and it will assist you with transitions.

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Andrzej said..

wind driven said..

Andrzej said..
Thank you all, I can manage sometimes to gybe in one direction but never happens in the other direction- having problems steering with the feet, even when doing s turns I have impression that it is more wing that is turning the board rather than the toe or heel. My board is gong lance 140, it is 5'9

The one bit of advice that sorted out my gybes, particularly the steering problem half way round was from one of the youtube instructional videos and it was to imagine a flashlight strapped to your hip and keep pointing that flashlight where you want to go. If ever my gybe looks like not completing i still think of this and i somehow gets me around as you give a little extra twist to your leading hip which seems to do the trick!

Interesting, would you have a link to this video?

WING FOIL ACADEMY - Foil Academy (foil-academy.com)

Interesting discussion.

As one who is learning and getting approximately 50% of my gibes, i was curious as to what the experts thought about hand wing selection?
on Sunday i went out in 14 knots (I'm 68kg in my birthday suit) with a 5.5, as the wind crept up to 18 kts i was getting a few gibes but struggling.
I went back out with my 4.2, and i snapped off 5-6 gibes pretty effortlessly, despite being really tired.

When learning gibes, is it better to be slightly underpowered with the hand wing than overpowered?

other gear for interest sake
6'6 board, 125l
75cm mast
hps980, 400p tail ultrashort fuse

Nice to see this discussion still ongoing. Something that helped me A LOT was using the Cabrinha Mantis, the wing seems to make the gybe easier, either that or I am actually getting better! I would recommend trying friends' wings if you can and I highly recommend the Mantis, others may have had similar experiences on different equipment.

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kookfoil4 said..
Interesting discussion.

As one who is learning and getting approximately 50% of my gibes, i was curious as to what the experts thought about hand wing selection?
on Sunday i went out in 14 knots (I'm 68kg in my birthday suit) with a 5.5, as the wind crept up to 18 kts i was getting a few gibes but struggling.
I went back out with my 4.2, and i snapped off 5-6 gibes pretty effortlessly, despite being really tired.

When learning gibes, is it better to be slightly underpowered with the hand wing than overpowered?

other gear for interest sake
6'6 board, 125l
75cm mast
hps980, 400p tail ultrashort fuse

Big wings are certainly more unwieldy. But when you are learning anything new in a wind sport, it's better to be well powered up. So, smaller wings... in decent wind.

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kookfoil4 said..
When learning gibes, is it better to be slightly underpowered with the hand wing than overpowered?

A smaller hand wing makes the wing handling in the jibe a lot easier. That is most pronounced in marginal condition, when the wing may drop in the middle of the turn because the apparent wind disappears. I've had similar experiences to what yours, with better success when just lightly powered.

But on the other hand, if you fall a lot when working on the jibe, you have to get back up on your feet, and then on the foil. For that, a bigger wing makes life easier, especially if balancing is a challenge, e.g. due to chop and/or poor balance. So it depends a lot on your fitness level and conditions. The difference you describe is pretty drastic, which would speak for going smaller.

I think a foil with glide makes a much bigger difference than a board. I started with a chunky foil that needed to always be powered up but bought a new gen foil recently with really good glide. I'm just a beginner but can nail all my gybes if I'm not messing around in waves. I just went out with my foil on a very different rental board and gybes feel the same. As a beginner I don't feel much difference doing gybes with 30" and 22" wide boards. However, I currently only foil in my dominant stance and toeside. Still have to figure out switch and maybe a shorter board with less real estate might be a little easier to figure out foot switches.

Try a smaller demo board or friends board and see how it feels and gybes.. I'd try shorter, not just narrower as per the original post..

Ultimately more time on the water is a good answer, but a shorter board certainly helped me get there quicker.. (10L under my weight)

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bobstx said..
I think a foil with glide makes a much bigger difference than a board. I started with a chunky foil that needed to always be powered up but bought a new gen foil recently with really good glide. I'm just a beginner but can nail all my gybes if I'm not messing around in waves. I just went out with my foil on a very different rental board and gybes feel the same. As a beginner I don't feel much difference doing gybes with 30" and 22" wide boards. However, I currently only foil in my dominant stance and toeside. Still have to figure out switch and maybe a shorter board with less real estate might be a little easier to figure out foot switches.

It's a balance. Foils with the best glide have very high aspect ratios, so they require more effort to initiate the turn, are more affected by turbulence, more technical to get on foil. First gen HA foils are especially unforgiving.

What wing is best for jibes learning? Now there are wings for freefly, freestyle, wave .... and it is too confusing to choose.

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felix1111 said..
What wing is best for jibes learning? Now there are wings for freefly, freestyle, wave .... and it is too confusing to choose.

I'd say try a few, they are so different.. For me the board and the foil made most difference, not the wing. A long handle/boom may help with hand transitions when learning.

Smaller wings are definitely easier to gybe, learning in light wind is harder when using a bigger wing and also staying on foil in the very light conditions, also wind chop/waves makes it harder.

I wouldn't pick a wing purely for it's gybing characteristics, I'd pick one that matches your style of riding and feels good, I have not had any issue gybing a variety of wings (I found tacking can be harder on some wings, but not so much gybing). Try some demo's / friends wings and see what feels good.

Not about board size but this is a brilliant tutorial

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