Both Reedin and Takuma are attempting to address the "bag-out" issues with the introduction of a lighter X-ply. The Reedin goes full throttle while the Takuma RS goes the hybrid route. I suspect we're going to see more and more experimentation with "better" materials. The big issues are weight and expense.

To be fair wing companies are trying, just that there's so many aspects which people want in their wings
-light weight
-powerful
-packs down small
-flags out neutral
-tight canopy
-windows vs no windows
-rigid or soft handles
-tight upwind angles etc

if your mainly doing wave riding a lighter wing will be a good option, however as you go lighter the canopy material is thinner and will bag out quicker.

for flat water a reedin xply wing or similar, may be better. I've tried the reedin, it's heavier when our taxiing and have to pump to get up however, once in the air it's as light as any other and absorbs gusts so well, then you also have the issues with packing up a large wing that's the size of a board bag that you have to look after delicately.

maybe an international wing association makes a class requirement for a standard shape or cloth weight that makes brands use a certain shape, as right now the sport is still developing so much.

Select to expand quote

oliverp said..
To be fair wing companies are trying, just that there's so many aspects which people want in their wings
-light weight
-powerful
-packs down small
-flags out neutral
-tight canopy
-windows vs no windows
-rigid or soft handles
-tight upwind angles etc

if your mainly doing wave riding a lighter wing will be a good option, however as you go lighter the canopy material is thinner and will bag out quicker.

for flat water a reedin xply wing or similar, may be better. I've tried the reedin, it's heavier when our taxiing and have to pump to get up however, once in the air it's as light as any other and absorbs gusts so well, then you also have the issues with packing up a large wing that's the size of a board bag that you have to look after delicately.

maybe an international wing association makes a class requirement for a standard shape or cloth weight that makes brands use a certain shape, as right now the sport is still developing so much.

You'll probably find a box rule for when the racing series heads to the olympics. Akin to that of foil kiting, but I doubt you'll see anything for free ride and wave riding.
Everyone wants to save money, some manufacturers are very good at marketing low quality cloth as luxury. It would be good to see this remedied, but then they'll just convert the expense back to buyers.

A wing doesn't cost much to make, but manufacturers have teethed price elasticity which consumers have accepted.

I think the bagged out effect is over stated. They still work, just lose 5 or 10% of bottom end. Some riders demand only the best and are willing to pay for that edge. Others willing to give up a little. But do agree about winging being hard on the gear vs kiting. Not as bad as early years though.

Winging can be done affordably with.some strategy...buy new and sell for 75% of cost within 6 months, or buy the 75% ones and selling a year for 50%. If you roll over gear before it is destroyed you can recoup much of cost.

Select to expand quote

juandesooka said..
I think the bagged out effect is over stated. They still work, just lose 5 or 10% of bottom end. Some riders demand only the best and are willing to pay for that edge. Others willing to give up a little. But do agree about winging being hard on the gear vs kiting. Not as bad as early years though.

Winging can be done affordably with.some strategy...buy new and sell for 75% of cost within 6 months, or buy the 75% ones and selling a year for 50%. If you roll over gear before it is destroyed you can recoup much of cost.

I was wondering about this. I've noticed in other hobbies/sports that I pursue that for many, anything less than the best is judged as unworthy. Not saying that's the case in this sport but it has crossed my mind that the bagging effect could be overstated.

As a noob, and having had no wind sport or foiling experience, I guess knowing what to look out for in used gear is the challenge.

Select to expand quote

smitts said..

juandesooka said..
I think the bagged out effect is over stated. They still work, just lose 5 or 10% of bottom end. Some riders demand only the best and are willing to pay for that edge. Others willing to give up a little. But do agree about winging being hard on the gear vs kiting. Not as bad as early years though.

Winging can be done affordably with.some strategy...buy new and sell for 75% of cost within 6 months, or buy the 75% ones and selling a year for 50%. If you roll over gear before it is destroyed you can recoup much of cost.

I was wondering about this. I've noticed in other hobbies/sports that I pursue that for many, anything less than the best is judged as unworthy. Not saying that's the case in this sport but it has crossed my mind that the bagging effect could be overstated.

As a noob, and having had no wind sport or foiling experience, I guess knowing what to look out for in used gear is the challenge.

No this is actually an issue. A bagged out wing is very clear, it'll loose enough of its performance to annoy you and when lighter cloth is used, it'll bag even quicker.

If you don't care for performance, this isn't an issue. If you're riding big low aspect foils, this will never bother you. You're never chasing the same demand from your gear as others are.
Everyone wants something different from this sport, if you're only looking to mow the lawn and are on a big 130L board. You're after something different to the guy on a 30L sinker. A bagged out wing could be the difference between making a breaking a session.

King Crash: yup, I know it's a thing. And agree that a 5% performance difference can be decider between making the 30L sinker work in medium wind. But as you say, that's not really the goal for many, probably most, riders, where the 5% difference may well make little or no difference. The people I sold my old wings to are still getting out and enjoying them, making them work, and getting on the water affordably, having fun.

Smitts: just giving a contrary opinion / perspective check so you can weigh pros/cons and make an informed decision. There's some tendency in this sport towards fussy perfectionism, eg where a tiny scratch on a foil wing is a disaster....and also throwing serious money at the latest and greatest. That perspective tends to be over represented on these forums, vs the average joe at the beach who just wants to ride on a windy sunday and doesn't obsess online (and yes that includes me ;-). I may also have a contrary opinion in that I see winging as maybe the least technical of the various wind disciplines....I see it as mainly a wave riding vehicle, more or less a personal tow in for wave foiling....the best parts of winging is when you actually aren't even using the wing at all, it's luffed while you surf. If it was strictly about flat water riding, going super fast, doing big tricks, then I'd still be kiting.

Select to expand quote

juandesooka said..
King Crash: yup, I know it's a thing. And agree that a 5% performance difference can be decider between making the 30L sinker work in medium wind. But as you say, that's not really the goal for many, probably most, riders, where the 5% difference may well make little or no difference. The people I sold my old wings to are still getting out and enjoying them, making them work, and getting on the water affordably, having fun.

Smitts: just giving a contrary opinion / perspective check so you can weigh pros/cons and make an informed decision. There's some tendency in this sport towards fussy perfectionism, eg where a tiny scratch on a foil wing is a disaster....and also throwing serious money at the latest and greatest. That perspective tends to be over represented on these forums, vs the average joe at the beach who just wants to ride on a windy sunday and doesn't obsess online (and yes that includes me ;-). I may also have a contrary opinion in that I see winging as maybe the least technical of the various wind disciplines....I see it as mainly a wave riding vehicle, more or less a personal tow in for wave foiling....the best parts of winging is when you actually aren't even using the wing at all, it's luffed while you surf. If it was strictly about flat water riding, going super fast, doing big tricks, then I'd still be kiting.

I don't have rights to "like" posts yet, but appreciating the read King Crash. It's all worthwhile information for me.

Juandesooka: It sounds like my motivations for getting into this sport are identical to the way you use it. It's when the wing is not being used and the person is riding with the momentum of the water that excites me; not so interested in speed/tricks at this stage (though I reserve the right to change my mind as I gain experience!!).. I am imagining getting on a sizeable unbroken swell out off Point Lonsdale and riding 1km all glass, back into shore .. Dunno if I'm dreaming or it's a real thing, but looks like people do that kind of thing on the YouTube vids I've watched! haha ... Long way down the track obviously I am prone to getting quite obsessed with my hobbies/interests so I understand, but I have no option but to start with cheaper gear!

Select to expand quote

smitts said..

,

I don't have rights to "like" posts yet, but appreciating the read King Crash. It's all worthwhile information for me.

Smitts,. You should start a thread for your gear search. Not griping at ya but that way this can stay on topic.

This forum (and even me lol) is so friendly that we will divert a conversation to help a new person so it starts with " yeah I wondered how long these last" and then it's, "I want to ride these waves on this board" and then you have your own thread but it's in the middle of the thread on wing longevity. ??

Sorry if this seems harsh, was not meant that way, just offering some perspective on how forums work. Let me know if you don't have new thread privileges yet and I'll start you one. We all will pitch in for sure and likely someone will pipe up and offer you a deal. (I'd sell you a cheap 5m I have if I weren't in the US. ( Damn seppos!!)

Select to expand quote

surfcowboy said..

smitts said..

,

I don't have rights to "like" posts yet, but appreciating the read King Crash. It's all worthwhile information for me.

Smitty's,. You should start a thread for your gear search. Not griping at ya but that way this can stay on topic. This is a big concern and lots of developing info here.

This forum (and even me lol) is so friendly that we will divert a conversation to help a new person so it starts with " yeah I wondered how long these last" and then it's, "I want to ride these waves on this board" and then you have your own thread but it's in the middle of the thread on wing longevity. ??

Sorry if this seems harsh, was not meant that way, just offering some perspective on how forums work. Let me know if you don't haynew thread privileges yet and I'll start you one. We all will pitch in for sure and likely someone will pipe up and offer you a deal. (I'd sell you a cheap 5m I have if I weren't in the US. ( Damn seppos!!)

Yep, no worries at all surfcowboy and no offence taken!

Happy for mods to delete this and previous posts to keep the thread clean!

I really should be focusing on my work atm I'll see if I can start a thread later on and will reach out if I don't have the privileges. Cheers

Select to expand quote

smitts said..

juandesooka said..
King Crash: yup, I know it's a thing. And agree that a 5% performance difference can be decider between making the 30L sinker work in medium wind. But as you say, that's not really the goal for many, probably most, riders, where the 5% difference may well make little or no difference. The people I sold my old wings to are still getting out and enjoying them, making them work, and getting on the water affordably, having fun.

Smitts: just giving a contrary opinion / perspective check so you can weigh pros/cons and make an informed decision. There's some tendency in this sport towards fussy perfectionism, eg where a tiny scratch on a foil wing is a disaster....and also throwing serious money at the latest and greatest. That perspective tends to be over represented on these forums, vs the average joe at the beach who just wants to ride on a windy sunday and doesn't obsess online (and yes that includes me ;-). I may also have a contrary opinion in that I see winging as maybe the least technical of the various wind disciplines....I see it as mainly a wave riding vehicle, more or less a personal tow in for wave foiling....the best parts of winging is when you actually aren't even using the wing at all, it's luffed while you surf. If it was strictly about flat water riding, going super fast, doing big tricks, then I'd still be kiting.

I don't have rights to "like" posts yet, but appreciating the read King Crash. It's all worthwhile information for me.

Juandesooka: It sounds like my motivation for getting into this sport are identical to the way you use it. It's when the wing is not being used and the person is riding with the momentum of the water that excites me; not so interested in speed/tricks.. I am imagining getting on a sizeable unbroken swell out off Point Lonsdale and riding 1km all glass, back into shore .. Dunno if I'm dreaming or it's a real thing, but looks like people do that kind of thing on the YouTube vids I've watched! haha ... Long way down the track obviously I am prone to getting quite obsessed with my hobbies/interests so I understand, but I have no option but to start with cheaper gear!

At the end of the day here. People gain fun in different ways.
To some, they get gratification riding the smallest plank of foam, 18L, 3"3 board. This sort of rider demands a bit more perfection.

As you guys mentioned, mowing the lawn and being stoked to be up and surfing is all you're after. Neither is more fun, as this is an entirely subjective aspect to the sport.

Designers can do their best to scale shapes to cover everyone, but at the end of the day. Not everyone will be happy.
To race you want a small HA foil and big wing.
To cruise on surf you want a bigger HA foil and medium size wing.
Everyone wants something different and we all have to respect everyone goals.

I'll add that I have an old bagged Swing 5m and a newer Strike 5m increased the low end of my range.

But my old swing still got me up and going in most situations. I tend to walk the line between performance and price. But I will say that I've learned that there are times and places where a little budget should be applied. I stayed too long on my old foil wing and it held me back. So make your own decisions.

Select to expand quote

King Crash said..

oliverp said..
To be fair wing companies are trying, just that there's so many aspects which people want in their wings
-light weight
-powerful
-packs down small
-flags out neutral
-tight canopy
-windows vs no windows
-rigid or soft handles
-tight upwind angles etc

if your mainly doing wave riding a lighter wing will be a good option, however as you go lighter the canopy material is thinner and will bag out quicker.

for flat water a reedin xply wing or similar, may be better. I've tried the reedin, it's heavier when our taxiing and have to pump to get up however, once in the air it's as light as any other and absorbs gusts so well, then you also have the issues with packing up a large wing that's the size of a board bag that you have to look after delicately.

maybe an international wing association makes a class requirement for a standard shape or cloth weight that makes brands use a certain shape, as right now the sport is still developing so much.

You'll probably find a box rule for when the racing series heads to the olympics. Akin to that of foil kiting, but I doubt you'll see anything for free ride and wave riding.
Everyone wants to save money, some manufacturers are very good at marketing low quality cloth as luxury. It would be good to see this remedied, but then they'll just convert the expense back to buyers.

A wing doesn't cost much to make, but manufacturers have teethed price elasticity which consumers have accepted.

ye for sure, I've seen people online who make the wings from china and cost as little as $200 for one unit and price drops more with large bulk orders with full wing customisation. Hopefully prices drop more to make the sport more accessible as it has so much potential.

I have Switch 4m and 5m wings that I bought in late 2020. I learned to wing during lockdown in Melbourne.

The two wings have a total of 250 hours from 190 sessions. The hours and sessions for each wing are roughly equal. The canopies look a little less tight towards the trailing edge, but other than that they're fine. I expect to ride them through 300 hours each unless something irresistible comes along.

I buy Switch wings because they're very good and very cheap. The wings cost about $950 each. Switch are selling their newer version for about $850 each. You need to watch the web site and buy during their frequent 50% off sales.

The original version had too soft handles. The new version has better handles and harness line attachment points. I have the old version and a DIY handle upgrade that worked out really well.

I am the classic older advanced intermediate rider. I don't see anybody else at my level doing any better on more expensive wings.

Select to expand quote

juandesooka said..
I think the bagged out effect is over stated. They still work, just lose 5 or 10% of bottom end. Some riders demand only the best and are willing to pay for that edge. Others willing to give up a little. But do agree about winging being hard on the gear vs kiting. Not as bad as early years though.

Winging can be done affordably with.some strategy...buy new and sell for 75% of cost within 6 months, or buy the 75% ones and selling a year for 50%. If you roll over gear before it is destroyed you can recoup much of cost.

I would agree, at least for my Naish S25's. Used for two seasons and they still work just fine. Was out riding the 3.6 the other day and still made it back upwind in three reaches after the two mile downwind repeatedly just as it always has. For me though it's less of a sailing sport and the wing is just a tool to be able to ride waves downwind. If I wanted top sailing efficiency or to just mow the lawn I would move over to wind foiling gear. The top guys here really make it look fun.

I often hear wingers say their wings have a huge range, they can hold them in heaps of wind. But how much damage does holding a wing in too much do to the canopy regarding stretching?

Select to expand quote

airsail said..
I often hear wingers say their wings have a huge range, they can hold them in heaps of wind. But how much damage does holding a wing in too much do to the canopy regarding stretching?

From my experience, when im overpowered im not fully powering the wing. I'm modulating the wing to only partially power up. It's not ideal because it's inefficient and it requires adjusting technique but it's not like it's bagging out the wing. Riding like this does flap the trailing edge more - which isn't good for longevity.
Getting pounded by waves is probably the most damaging thing I have found for a wing. It stresses the canopy much more than riding overpowered.

YMMV

I log my miles on all my gear. I have 513 miles on my echo 6m (my first wing) and 330 on my slick 4.5m. Both are visibly blown out. It's easier to tell on the slick, since I can tighten the echo using the boom. I feel like the echo is pretty great in that regard and it's something I'll miss.

I have no idea how it effects performance. If it's just like loosening the boom on my echo then it just means more power at the expense of upwind and high wind ability.
I would need to ride a brand new identical wing to really find out the difference.
Has anyone on this forum actually ridden a bagged out wing and a new wing side by side?

I'm rough on my gear and use it daily, mostly in waves.

I've found wings to be the most delicate of sails. Kites easily last years and still perform great. Wings last months for me.

It's not completely a fault of material science, the physics of winging is just brutal on the device! Central tension without any real support, hitting the board regularly, occasional foil nicks, rolling in waves occasionally, constantly wet and sandy.

It sure is fun though!

Select to expand quote

Icebergmansion said..
I'm rough on my gear and use it daily, mostly in waves.

I've found wings to be the most delicate of sails. Kites easily last years and still perform great. Wings last months for me.

It's not completely a fault of material science, the physics of winging is just brutal on the device! Central tension without any real support, hitting the board regularly, occasional foil nicks, rolling in waves occasionally, constantly wet and sandy.

It sure is fun though!

Out of interest how often are you changing wings, buying new every time? Ive had Ensis score about 9months and a lot of bagging but still working well. Defo different characteristics to when it was new.

Select to expand quote

Gorgo said..
I have Switch 4m and 5m wings that I bought in late 2020. I learned to wing during lockdown in Melbourne.

The two wings have a total of 250 hours from 190 sessions. The hours and sessions for each wing are roughly equal. The canopies look a little less tight towards the trailing edge, but other than that they're fine. I expect to ride them through 300 hours each unless something irresistible comes along.

I buy Switch wings because they're very good and very cheap. The wings cost about $950 each. Switch are selling their newer version for about $850 each. You need to watch the web site and buy during their frequent 50% off sales.

The original version had too soft handles. The new version has better handles and harness line attachment points. I have the old version and a DIY handle upgrade that worked out really well.

I am the classic older advanced intermediate rider. I don't see anybody else at my level doing any better on more expensive wings.

Thanks for the heads up about Switch Gorgo, they are ridiculously cheap compared to the mainstream brands
Any other experiences out there with these?
Particularly for Australian peeps
I note the comment got a few likes so assuming there are other Switch users out there
Thanks in advance

How long will a wing last? I guess it depends. If you use it in the surf and you aren't very lucky then not long!

My estimation is that current wings will last about a season in "optimal using condition" aswell. I have had a 5m strike for about half a year now as my only wing (use it in 10-35+ knots), and in truth it could already do with a replacement (say it has a rough 30-50 2h sessions under its belt). Having said that, after a year a wing is far from unusable. Sure its stretched, and especially at speed you feel it starts to stall earlier, but for freeriding I dont really see the problem. Upwind angles are great regardless and more a matter of choosing the right foil than the right wing in my experience. Most peoples early flying can be improved way more with technique than with a new wing from what I see around me on the water. Stretch doesnt really seem to impact drift on the flagging handle, so for waveriding its fine. I dont feel a noticable difference in pop & lift when doing jumps. Might feel some decrease in performance in backwinded sailing and aerial rotations, but if you're doing that you're no longer the average freerider.

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..
My estimation is that current wings will last about a season in "optimal using condition" aswell. I have had a 5m strike for about half a year now as my only wing (use it in 10-35+ knots), and in truth it could already do with a replacement (say it has a rough 30-50 2h sessions under its belt). Having said that, after a year a wing is far from unusable. Sure its stretched, and especially at speed you feel it starts to stall earlier, but for freeriding I dont really see the problem. Upwind angles are great regardless and more a matter of choosing the right foil than the right wing in my experience. Most peoples early flying can be improved way more with technique than with a new wing from what I see around me on the water. Stretch doesnt really seem to impact drift on the flagging handle, so for waveriding its fine. I dont feel a noticable difference in pop & lift when doing jumps. Might feel some decrease in performance in backwinded sailing and aerial rotations, but if you're doing that you're no longer the average freerider.

This.
Exact same experience with my Strikes (oldest and most used 4.2 is from Nov 2020, one of the first batch)