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Backlooping in very light winds. Are these displacement foiling boards going to be the future of light wind winging?

It would be more interesting to see some light wind wing start comparisons between long narrow downwind boards and 'conventional' short planing boards. The theoretical advantage being that downwind boards are easier to gain initial speed. Far more relevant to most wingers than jump landings.

From examining my GPS logger (GT-31), I've found I need 5 knots of board-speed for my PNG-1150 to lift my 100kg's when winging.

Theoretically the narrower semi-displacement board should reach this speed earlier (easier?) than the short/wide board, I don't think anyone doubts this. It's what the long/ narrow board feels like once up and winging that is the question for me.

As I'm more likely to loose a session due to light winds rather than being blown out, I think the long/ narrow board makes sense for my winging. The question for me is are they versatile to be the only board I use...

I've tried a 6'8" long 22" wide 90l board, and it was surprisingly fun and easy to turn. I wouldn't jump it, but would enjoy riding waves. I didn't really get to test the low end as there was plenty of wind that day.

The rider is in the middle so the swing weight wasn't too bad. It's not like having an extra 2ft on the front on the board.

There are videos of James Casey winging his 6ft+ DW board in waves: www.instagram.com/reel/CmQidHOpKyh/

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BritWinger said..
I've tried a 6'8" long 22" wide 90l board, and it was surprisingly fun and easy to turn. I wouldn't jump it, but would enjoy riding waves. I didn't really get to test the low end as there was plenty of wind that day.

The rider is in the middle so the swing weight wasn't too bad. It's not like having an extra 2ft on the front on the board.

There are videos of James Casey winging his 6ft+ DW board in waves: www.instagram.com/reel/CmQidHOpKyh/

I'm interested in making a board like this for Sup surfing, do you think that size would be stable to stand up on?
thanks.

I'm getting a board like this made at the moment.

I've got the Armie 6'3" x 18.75" at 85L on order and hope to use it SUP DW (or hand paddle) and wing in shifty/light winds and also prone/sup in small surf (or bigger surf where getting in early is paramount).
I'm 65kgs, so I'm really stressing the low volume and shorter length. If I had any sense, I'd go longer and wider, but it's nice to have the knee/prone as a fall back while I suffer with the SUP portion.
For winging it should be sweet-as. My 60L FG board just can't get up to speed for me in really light winds on many occasions. Those last 1-2 knots of forward speed are so crucial.

I've got the Armie 6'3" x 18.75" at 85L on order and hope to use it SUP DW (or hand paddle) and wing in shifty/light winds and also prone/sup in small surf (or bigger surf where getting in early is paramount).
I'm 65kgs, so I'm really stressing the low volume and shorter length. If I had any sense, I'd go longer and wider, but it's nice to have the knee/prone as a fall back while I suffer with the SUP portion.
For winging it should be sweet-as. My 60L FG board just can't get up to speed for me in really light winds on many occasions. Those last 1-2 knots of forward speed are so crucial.

For those that have one of these longer/skinnier DW boards for winging, I notice not many have handles in the bottom for carrying the board and wing at the same time.

After my current board I'd convinced myself to never buy another board without a handle in the bottom for winging.

Is the 22"/23" width narrow enough to carry like a surfboard or do you miss the bottom handle like I do?

For comparison Ive got a Fanatic sky 5'2" x 25" wing and a "DK E3 type"custom downwind 6'3" x 21", both similar volume. Riding back to back, same day same set up.. mostly low wind 12kts at our launch place then 20kt + in a bay down the lake with twisty tricky strong shifts and chop. I did lots of restarts.
The downwind board has an aerodynamic wing bow shape and feels like it flys very well to windward, has little extra swing weight through tight turns. Touch downs and recovery at speed are more smooth and straight with less bounce and less deflection. Feels like a smooth push through touchdown with less bounce upward. I notice the air affecting flight to windward, it becomes part of the speed trimming. The board flys level and acts like a wing in a good way. That was a nice surprise and repaid my complex shaping efforts. Take off was easier at same wind strength however it pierces the water more easily than the short wide board so at times nose dives are more a thing starting in chop. The Fanatic 5'2" has more nose rocker, the downwind has a foredeck that drops to create the aerofoil bow shape hence less nose rocker.
Re. carry handles. Holes in the bottom are slow! .unless they are properly shaped to create a Venturi and introduce air from the deck.

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Jethrow said..
For those that have one of these longer/skinnier DW boards for winging, I notice not many have handles in the bottom for carrying the board and wing at the same time.

After my current board I'd convinced myself to never buy another board without a handle in the bottom for winging.

Is the 22"/23" width narrow enough to carry like a surfboard or do you miss the bottom handle like I do?

Once the boards get to about 20-21 wide you can arm around it carry but wider than this is still a little awkward I find. Hard to put a handle is a downwind board as that big hole has to cause drag and when you are trying to pump up DW you really don't want any extra disadvantage.

It's funny when we made our EGG boards www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/shop/the-egg these were mostly for DW SUP foiling and waves as they are perfect for this but as winding has now moved into seeing the advantages for boards like this I think it's now a 50% wind wing light wind board now as well, Still not sure I need to put a handle in the bottom unless someone can convince me otherwise but always happy to listen.

Funny even on our wing boards that have a handle in the bottom I myself very rarely use it and prefer to put it on my shoulder or on my head.

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paul.j said..

Jethrow said..
For those that have one of these longer/skinnier DW boards for winging, I notice not many have handles in the bottom for carrying the board and wing at the same time.

After my current board I'd convinced myself to never buy another board without a handle in the bottom for winging.

Is the 22"/23" width narrow enough to carry like a surfboard or do you miss the bottom handle like I do?

Once the boards get to about 20-21 wide you can arm around it carry but wider than this is still a little awkward I find. Hard to put a handle is a downwind board as that big hole has to cause drag and when you are trying to pump up DW you really don't want any extra disadvantage.

It's funny when we made our EGG boards www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/shop/the-egg these were mostly for DW SUP foiling and waves as they are perfect for this but as winding has now moved into seeing the advantages for boards like this I think it's now a 50% wind wing light wind board now as well, Still not sure I need to put a handle in the bottom unless someone can convince me otherwise but always happy to listen.

Funny even on our wing boards that have a handle in the bottom I myself very rarely use it and prefer to put it on my shoulder or on my head.

Handle in the bottom is useful getting in and out of shore dump. Rest of the time shoulder.

www.instagram.com/reel/CkSdfzaonnj/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

This video of balz getting up on a skinny downwind board in basically no wind is definitely proof of concept. Yes it is balz muller whos basically super human but I don't think it would be possible on a short stubby board.

I've been impressed with the Sunova 6'6" x 25" pro. Got it as a cross over board (surf sup/ lake DW). On a trip away I threw in a set of wind wings and was surprised how easy it was to light wing such a long board. Super long tracks have a massive influence in reducing swing weight, making it feel like a much smaller board ( normally wing 4'9" board) So on trips away when I can only take my prone foil board and this SUP board ive now got everything happily covered.

In my Opinion, swing weight is not just by length, if you yaw a lot like surfboard yes, but if you carve like rail to rail, I think narrower board also reduce swing weight, I feel I do have a lot more control over the foil with narrower board also.

Love winging my 8'x19.5" cuda style in light winds. I can go a wing size or 2 less as it foils up sooo easily. Take long tacks out to sea then practice down winding . Using big foils is so cool with them. I feel safe down to 6-8 knots with a 4.5.

I just tried my 6'3" x 18.75" 85L Armie board winging with a 1325 and 5M wing. The acceleration to get on foil is next level. Such a laid back fun way to ride. As Slyde said, upwind to DW is a blast. Longer board actually made linking bumps and pumping easier.

Rail to rail turns and jibes felt amazing. The only negative I really felt was the lack of quick pitch adjustments so I was glancing the nose off of swells more often than my 60 L. I bet if I put the 50 fuse on that would free up that axis a bit more.


I touched down to feel out stability in the knee high 3 second period chop and it wasn't bad. I turned the board downwind and held the wing like a spinnaker and caught a bump in 2 seconds without pumping the wing or board. Just automatic. SUPing was not automatic however haha.

Just sessioned my DW Sup and 4M in 8 to 18knt gusty conditions. First with a biggest wing; 1325HA, then my smallest; 525HA wing. Definitely required a bit more of a steady gust to get up on the 525, but was still a blast to rocket around on. Didn't change a thing on the configuration.50 fuse, 205 tail with two reds and a blue shim at 5 in the box. The 1325 was a couple knee compressions and presto. Went into the session trying to learn switch stance. So freaking hard. Back to square one, except seems harder than learning to foil prone surfing.

I have hardly winged all season as I have been concentrating on downwind paddling.

However I was out yesterday on the river on my 5' One wing board and axis 1050 ( a pretty good light wind setup) but had came in with the last couple of wingers and wind foilers because it had got to the stage I could not get up on foil.

No one else was out but I decided to tried out my downwind paddle set up, my 7' x 23 Sunova Elite with largest downwind foil the Axis 1300 and Smik 6mtr wing.

Was not confident at all but a couple of pumps of wing and board and up it came, definitely the lightest wind I have ever winged in, would love to know what the wind strength was.

The 7' is a bit large to wing on regularly though but I have previously winged on my 6'1 One Egg downwind board and love that for winging.

I've had my DW board a week now. 6'8, 23inches wide and 100l. I weigh 77kg.

For wingfoiling it's great. It's not quite as throw-about as a small board, but for the light wind conditions it's to be used in it's great and fun on a wave. I can tack/gybe/360 it just as easily as my 5ft board. Because the extra length is mostly behind you the extra swing weight isn't huge.

Yesterday we had waist dropping to thigh-high non-breaking groundswell, and the wind was 8kts Gusting 10kts, and at it's higher 9kts Gusting 13kts. Some were out SUP or SUP foiling. Other wingers were getting going in the 13kt gusts (with bigger wings than me), but not in the lighter periods. Paired with a big Sabfoil 1350-L foil, I had a fantastic time. Easily getting up on the foil, riding minute-long waves. The big HA foil makes the waves feel double the size they do on a small foil. The big HA is difficult to start with and requires a good hour to get used to, but once you get comfortable and confident with it, it becomes easier.

I think these displacement boards are perhaps best paired with a bigger HA foil. I didn't find it made as much difference in getting going with a smaller foil, but that could well be my technique (it is subtly different to a smaller board).


For SUP foiling it's a bit of a challenge so far. I can stand on it and paddle onto a wave, but I need more practice to improve my balance. It's going to be brilliant once I have the skills. I could have gone bigger to make it easier for SUP, but wanted something to grow into and that would be fun once up on the foil.

Are there any brands selling narrow light wind boards with larger volume specifically for winging yet? The smaller sizes of the gonna cruzader look great, but they're not hitting the market until may and I'm not sure if gong ships to the US. I've seen boards like the freedom foil nugget, but the largest size is only 50l. I'm looking for more around 100l. I'm trying to keep the length around the 6ft mark so the board will fit in my car.

I recently acquired a used Kalama E3
6'1" x 23" @ 105 litres
I've only used it for winging so far and it is simply awesome, stable to stand on (80kg), gets up and flying easily and turns really well.

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camerongraham said..
I recently acquired a used Kalama E3
6'1" x 23" @ 105 litres
I've only used it for winging so far and it is simply awesome, stable to stand on (80kg), gets up and flying easily and turns really well.

Can you compare your E3 to other boards in similarly light wind conditions?

AFS Blackbird...

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miamiwngr said..
Are there any brands selling narrow light wind boards with larger volume specifically for winging yet? The smaller sizes of the gonna cruzader look great, but they're not hitting the market until may and I'm not sure if gong ships to the US. I've seen boards like the freedom foil nugget, but the largest size is only 50l. I'm looking for more around 100l. I'm trying to keep the length around the 6ft mark so the board will fit in my car.

This board works sick as a wind wing board, it was made for DW 5'10 x 23 x 92L. Small enough to fit in the car, as light as pretty much anything on the market coming in at about 5kg for the carbon model plus they are strong as which is also always nice. Pump up super easy yet still feels like a nice small board on foil.
www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/shop/the-egg

The AFS board was a good recommendation. Had not seen that one before. I still think 21.5 is wider than what I'm looking for. Seems like the latest downwind boards are all sub 20

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miamiwngr said..
The AFS board was a good recommendation. Had not seen that one before. I still think 21.5 is wider than what I'm looking for. Seems like the latest downwind boards are all sub 20

Im thinking of getting something similar made. Personally, I would be aiming for about 80 liters, 6 feet and 20 inches wide with long tracks. Ideally I could use such a board for sub 10 knots up to mid/high teens and maybe try some hand paddle downwinding as well. My primary board is 60L, 4'9" and I'm 80 kg.

The Axis hybrid 90L board is pretty close, but still wider than I would like.

For those of you using these types of boards, any intel on how much smaller a wing you can rig for light wind? For example if I can get up in 8 knots with a 7m wing on my -20 liter standard shaped board (4'9") could I use a 5m with a mini downwind board? How does the efficiency translate to wing size?

Proper just posted a really nice mini 'cuda shape on Instagram. A little too small at 5'6" but almost exactly what I'm looking for.

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Im thinking of getting something similar made. Personally, I would be aiming for about 80 liters, 6 feet and 20 inches wide with long tracks. Ideally I could use such a board for sub 10 knots up to mid/high teens and maybe try some hand paddle downwinding as well. My primary board is 60L, 4'9" and I'm 80 kg.

The Axis hybrid 90L board is pretty close, but still wider than I would like.

As you are not trying to stand on it, at least not without a wing, I reckon you could go quite a bit narrower, 18" or maybe even 17".
I reckon 6" is the perfect length and body weight the perfect volume for the ultimate lightwind + downwind winging board. I've been considering getting one made - or even trying to make one myself - though it needs to be super-light to fully unlock the benefits, definitely less than 5kg.

Velocicraptor said..[/b]

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For example if I can get up in 8 knots with a 7m wing on my -20 liter standard shaped board (4'9") could I use a 5m with a mini downwind board? How does the efficiency translate to wing size?

I reckon for sure. I've got a 6'3" x 23" DW board, I can get it up it in 14 knots with a 3m wing. The difference is at least one wing size smaller than a regular wing board.

6'3" x 23" validates the concept, and it's what I'm using to try learn downwind paddling, but it's in no way optimised for winging.

I reckon it should be winging law that whenever someone gives an opinion they should quote their weight at least.

Oh I can get up foiling on a ### foil in xx knots. Opps didn't I say, I weigh 40 kgs and was using a 7m wing...

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StephenZ said..

Im thinking of getting something similar made. Personally, I would be aiming for about 80 liters, 6 feet and 20 inches wide with long tracks. Ideally I could use such a board for sub 10 knots up to mid/high teens and maybe try some hand paddle downwinding as well. My primary board is 60L, 4'9" and I'm 80 kg.

The Axis hybrid 90L board is pretty close, but still wider than I would like.

As you are not trying to stand on it, at least not without a wing, I reckon you could go quite a bit narrower, 18" or maybe even 17".
I reckon 6" is the perfect length and body weight the perfect volume for the ultimate lightwind + downwind winging board. I've been considering getting one made - or even trying to make one myself - though it needs to be super-light to fully unlock the benefits, definitely less than 5kg.

Velocicraptor said..[/b]

For example if I can get up in 8 knots with a 7m wing on my -20 liter standard shaped board (4'9") could I use a 5m with a mini downwind board? How does the efficiency translate to wing size?

I reckon for sure. I've got a 6'3" x 23" DW board, I can get it up it in 14 knots with a 3m wing. The difference is at least one wing size smaller than a regular wing board.

6'3" x 23" validates the concept, and it's what I'm using to try learn downwind paddling, but it's in no way optimised for winging.

This is great intel. Thank you. Other than width, if you have any other suggestions for "optimizing for winging" I would be very curious to hear. Most of my design thoughts are extrapolated from SUP downwind, but I'm sure there are wing-specific tweaks that I should be thinking of. I think I'm about to pull the trigger on a custom...