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Jeroensurf said..

Although I like my Fanatic, if I should buy everything again I would go for the Quatro or Naish as they are lighter and have the boxxes a bit further forwards giving you more options with diff foilbrands.

Wait a sec, this is important. So, the way you connect your foil to the board is not standard? Is it a naive thought of mine that all foil mast/plate/board connection are standard?

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jb74 said..

Jeroensurf said..

Although I like my Fanatic, if I should buy everything again I would go for the Quatro or Naish as they are lighter and have the boxxes a bit further forwards giving you more options with diff foilbrands.

Wait a sec, this is important. So, the way you connect your foil to the board is not standard? Is it a naive thought of mine that all foil mast/plate/board connection are standard?

The mounts are standard, in that you can mount any foil to any board. What isn't standard is the balance point of the foils, and the corresponding placement of the mounting tracks.

When looking at the foils from the side, you will see some where the mast mounts close to the front wing (e.g. Naish) and some where the mast mounts much further back (e.g. Slingshot, Fanatic).

As a result, the mount on Naish boards is much further forward on the board, and Slingshot toward the rear.

I have a Naish board and Slingshot foil, and even with the foil mounted as far back as I can get it, I still need my feet well in front of the footstrap holes to balance, so it's definitely something to be aware of.

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Jonesey32 said..

The mounts are standard, in that you can mount any foil to any board. What isn't standard is the balance point of the foils, and the corresponding placement of the mounting tracks.

When looking at the foils from the side, you will see some where the mast mounts close to the front wing (e.g. Naish) and some where the mast mounts much further back (e.g. Slingshot, Fanatic).

As a result, the mount on Naish boards is much further forward on the board, and Slingshot toward the rear.

I have a Naish board and Slingshot foil, and even with the foil mounted as far back as I can get it, I still need my feet well in front of the footstrap holes to balance, so it's definitely something to be aware of.

Hah...I would have never thought about it. Thank you

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Jonesey32 said..

jb74 said..

Jeroensurf said..

Although I like my Fanatic, if I should buy everything again I would go for the Quatro or Naish as they are lighter and have the boxxes a bit further forwards giving you more options with diff foilbrands.

Wait a sec, this is important. So, the way you connect your foil to the board is not standard? Is it a naive thought of mine that all foil mast/plate/board connection are standard?

The mounts are standard, in that you can mount any foil to any board. What isn't standard is the balance point of the foils, and the corresponding placement of the mounting tracks.

When looking at the foils from the side, you will see some where the mast mounts close to the front wing (e.g. Naish) and some where the mast mounts much further back (e.g. Slingshot, Fanatic).

As a result, the mount on Naish boards is much further forward on the board, and Slingshot toward the rear.

I have a Naish board and Slingshot foil, and even with the foil mounted as far back as I can get it, I still need my feet well in front of the footstrap holes to balance, so it's definitely something to be aware of.

Have you gone down the shim route with the stab?

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Clamsmasha said..

Jonesey32 said..

jb74 said..

Jeroensurf said..

Although I like my Fanatic, if I should buy everything again I would go for the Quatro or Naish as they are lighter and have the boxxes a bit further forwards giving you more options with diff foilbrands.

Wait a sec, this is important. So, the way you connect your foil to the board is not standard? Is it a naive thought of mine that all foil mast/plate/board connection are standard?

The mounts are standard, in that you can mount any foil to any board. What isn't standard is the balance point of the foils, and the corresponding placement of the mounting tracks.

When looking at the foils from the side, you will see some where the mast mounts close to the front wing (e.g. Naish) and some where the mast mounts much further back (e.g. Slingshot, Fanatic).

As a result, the mount on Naish boards is much further forward on the board, and Slingshot toward the rear.

I have a Naish board and Slingshot foil, and even with the foil mounted as far back as I can get it, I still need my feet well in front of the footstrap holes to balance, so it's definitely something to be aware of.

Have you gone down the shim route with the stab?

No, I haven't bothered with that yet. I'm enjoying riding strapless at the moment, so it isn't an issue.

With the Slingshot foil, I can also move the mast to another position on the fuselage (more forward) where it would push the balance point back into the range of the Naish box, but give up a bit of stability and early lift. I'll try that again at some point, but I've got it where I'm used to it at the moment.

I was just letting others know that you need to pay attention to that when mixing brands.

My take on this whole volume thing: Been dinging for 18 months reasonably solidly but Im in my 50s so I've been looking for that setup that maximises performance for a weekender who is not super fit but also like to push it as much as possible. I'm 73 kg. Started on a 6'6"115l SMIK SUP. Very easy to learn on. After 6 months moved to 5'2" 100l board, then 6 months later to 5' 80l, then just moved to 60l 4'10.
Seems like alot of expense but I build my own boards so not really for me. as I moved down in size I thought I would lose low end . Not so. In fact with each step down i have found the bottom end is much the same so long as you aren't trying to ride in some stupid light winds. I thought the recent move to a -10l would be significant but again not so. In fact the slight negative buoyancy makes it easier to get on the board and kneel start than the 80l which is a bit corky and tippy by comparison. At the same time I have progressively moved to smaller and smaller foils. As you get better your balance improves and your starting technique improves and your pumping of wing and foil improves so you learn how to make a 60l board perform the same as a 100l board in the same wind range. In fact the 60l waaaaay outperforms the 100l in every way. But had I gone from 115l straight to 60l I would have struggled. There is no doubt in my mind that there is alot more to it than just length and volume. Weight, Rail shape ,rocker ,nose shape, tail shape, volume distribution and box position and strap position all effect performance. The comments about the drawbacks of rear positioned boxes are very true. You want a board that is balanced on take off with your feet in the straps so you can pump it easily. You cant do that on a board with boxes at the very rear. I have a 38l board too but to be honest I have yet to ride it because those conditions that are right for learning to ride a tiny board are just not that common for me. I would also say that I have watched some buddies who are also very competent dingers but heavier than me struggle with -30l boards because for us older guys the energy expenditure with starting this type of board saps you to the point that your session gets cut short by fatigue.
So my current advice re board volume for the average weekend punter who wants a 2 hour session having fun and not struggling the whole time is: Learning +30 to +40l. Intermediate skills +10l. Advanced skills -10l. Expert -you decide
If you are young, athletic and get out alot and live in a place with reliable strong wind then sure go for the little surfboard style if you can. I dont know of any sport where you can go from beginner gear to advanced gear without having to progressively move through intermediate gear so why should dinging be any different?
One other comment. Smaller boards have the advantage that they are easier to turn and by the time you are on a smaller board you usually have all your transitions nailed so the need to start gets less and less as sometimes you ride for an hour or more without falling anyway.

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Jonesey32 said..

jb74 said..

Jeroensurf said..

Although I like my Fanatic, if I should buy everything again I would go for the Quatro or Naish as they are lighter and have the boxxes a bit further forwards giving you more options with diff foilbrands.

Wait a sec, this is important. So, the way you connect your foil to the board is not standard? Is it a naive thought of mine that all foil mast/plate/board connection are standard?

The mounts are standard, in that you can mount any foil to any board. What isn't standard is the balance point of the foils, and the corresponding placement of the mounting tracks.

When looking at the foils from the side, you will see some where the mast mounts close to the front wing (e.g. Naish) and some where the mast mounts much further back (e.g. Slingshot, Fanatic).

As a result, the mount on Naish boards is much further forward on the board, and Slingshot toward the rear.

I have a Naish board and Slingshot foil, and even with the foil mounted as far back as I can get it, I still need my feet well in front of the footstrap holes to balance, so it's definitely something to be aware of.

This speaks exactly to my problem with my Naish 5-7 inflatable and Axis foil! Thanks so much!

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Slyde said..
My take on this whole volume thing: Been dinging for 18 months reasonably solidly but Im in my 50s so I've been looking for that setup that maximises performance for a weekender who is not super fit but also like to push it as much as possible. I'm 73 kg. Started on a 6'6"115l SMIK SUP. Very easy to learn on. After 6 months moved to 5'2" 100l board, then 6 months later to 5' 80l, then just moved to 60l 4'10.
Seems like alot of expense but I build my own boards so not really for me. as I moved down in size I thought I would lose low end . Not so. In fact with each step down i have found the bottom end is much the same so long as you aren't trying to ride in some stupid light winds. I thought the recent move to a -10l would be significant but again not so. In fact the slight negative buoyancy makes it easier to get on the board and kneel start than the 80l which is a bit corky and tippy by comparison. At the same time I have progressively moved to smaller and smaller foils. As you get better your balance improves and your starting technique improves and your pumping of wing and foil improves so you learn how to make a 60l board perform the same as a 100l board in the same wind range. In fact the 60l waaaaay outperforms the 100l in every way. But had I gone from 115l straight to 60l I would have struggled. There is no doubt in my mind that there is alot more to it than just length and volume. Weight, Rail shape ,rocker ,nose shape, tail shape, volume distribution and box position and strap position all effect performance. The comments about the drawbacks of rear positioned boxes are very true. You want a board that is balanced on take off with your feet in the straps so you can pump it easily. You cant do that on a board with boxes at the very rear. I have a 38l board too but to be honest I have yet to ride it because those conditions that are right for learning to ride a tiny board are just not that common for me. I would also say that I have watched some buddies who are also very competent dingers but heavier than me struggle with -30l boards because for us older guys the energy expenditure with starting this type of board saps you to the point that your session gets cut short by fatigue.
So my current advice re board volume for the average weekend punter who wants a 2 hour session having fun and not struggling the whole time is: Learning +30 to +40l. Intermediate skills +10l. Advanced skills -10l. Expert -you decide
If you are young, athletic and get out alot and live in a place with reliable strong wind then sure go for the little surfboard style if you can. I dont know of any sport where you can go from beginner gear to advanced gear without having to progressively move through intermediate gear so why should dinging be any different?
One other comment. Smaller boards have the advantage that they are easier to turn and by the time you are on a smaller board you usually have all your transitions nailed so the need to start gets less and less as sometimes you ride for an hour or more without falling anyway.

Thanks for taking the time for this reply Slyde. Having recently started I found it very informative

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snorton said..

Slyde said..
My take on this whole volume thing: Been dinging for 18 months reasonably solidly but Im in my 50s so I've been looking for that setup that maximises performance for a weekender who is not super fit but also like to push it as much as possible. I'm 73 kg. Started on a 6'6"115l SMIK SUP. Very easy to learn on. After 6 months moved to 5'2" 100l board, then 6 months later to 5' 80l, then just moved to 60l 4'10.
Seems like alot of expense but I build my own boards so not really for me. as I moved down in size I thought I would lose low end . Not so. In fact with each step down i have found the bottom end is much the same so long as you aren't trying to ride in some stupid light winds. I thought the recent move to a -10l would be significant but again not so. In fact the slight negative buoyancy makes it easier to get on the board and kneel start than the 80l which is a bit corky and tippy by comparison. At the same time I have progressively moved to smaller and smaller foils. As you get better your balance improves and your starting technique improves and your pumping of wing and foil improves so you learn how to make a 60l board perform the same as a 100l board in the same wind range. In fact the 60l waaaaay outperforms the 100l in every way. But had I gone from 115l straight to 60l I would have struggled. There is no doubt in my mind that there is alot more to it than just length and volume. Weight, Rail shape ,rocker ,nose shape, tail shape, volume distribution and box position and strap position all effect performance. The comments about the drawbacks of rear positioned boxes are very true. You want a board that is balanced on take off with your feet in the straps so you can pump it easily. You cant do that on a board with boxes at the very rear. I have a 38l board too but to be honest I have yet to ride it because those conditions that are right for learning to ride a tiny board are just not that common for me. I would also say that I have watched some buddies who are also very competent dingers but heavier than me struggle with -30l boards because for us older guys the energy expenditure with starting this type of board saps you to the point that your session gets cut short by fatigue.
So my current advice re board volume for the average weekend punter who wants a 2 hour session having fun and not struggling the whole time is: Learning +30 to +40l. Intermediate skills +10l. Advanced skills -10l. Expert -you decide
If you are young, athletic and get out alot and live in a place with reliable strong wind then sure go for the little surfboard style if you can. I dont know of any sport where you can go from beginner gear to advanced gear without having to progressively move through intermediate gear so why should dinging be any different?
One other comment. Smaller boards have the advantage that they are easier to turn and by the time you are on a smaller board you usually have all your transitions nailed so the need to start gets less and less as sometimes you ride for an hour or more without falling anyway.

Thanks for taking the time for this reply Slyde. Having recently started I found it very informative

Excellent reply slyde, you've mailed a few of my own anxieties about moving down in size. It's hard to give up a winning position for the unknown but it has to be done!

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Slyde said..

So my current advice re board volume for the average weekend punter who wants a 2 hour session having fun and not struggling the whole time is: Learning +30 to +40l. Intermediate skills +10l. Advanced skills -10l. Expert -you decide
If you are young, athletic and get out alot and live in a place with reliable strong wind then sure go for the little surfboard style if you can. I dont know of any sport where you can go from beginner gear to advanced gear without having to progressively move through intermediate gear so why should dinging be any different?

Slyde, I really appreciate the time you spent sharing your experience. Based on the comments I got an overview of what I should look for. 4 boards...ideal world :-) Not everyone can afford that :-( Boards from the most known brands sells around 1100 - 2K+.
"I dont know of any sport where you can go from beginner gear to advanced gear without having to progressively move through intermediate gear" - I fully agree with you....although I have my F-One Bandit kite for almost seven years. I bought different kites along the years for lightwind, for jumping or just for playing around. But the Bandit still absolves several of my requirements. The only reason I'm not using it's because the velcro safety system is outdated. In other words, sometimes one tool fits both for beginners and advanced riders. Board-wise (kite) you have to choose a bit more careful. You need the right toy for the specific play. I assume the same applies for wingboards. But I cannot afford buying 3-4 boards within 2 years. This is why I'm trying to find out whether a 110liter board sinks under a 90kg rider. I have this (maybe fake ) idea, if I have a board under me that does not sink, the rest can be solved/learnt by using my skills....but I may be fully wrong. It's a pity that the COVID over-cut the manufacturers demo days.

jb74 if you are a beginner and 90 kg go for at least 110l, preferably 120-130 and a big foil. there are many second hand foil sups that suffice at a price where u can flick it on and lose very little money. once you are away and flying you will get a feel for what happens next. like it was when we started with regular sups... if you go too small too fast you will regret it. you can still have alot of fun on a 120 l board and i have 90 kg buddies who have no plans to go lower than 120l.

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Slyde said..
jb74 if you are a beginner and 90 kg go for at least 110l, preferably 120-130 and a big foil. there are many second hand foil sups that suffice at a price where u can flick it on and lose very little money. once you are away and flying you will get a feel for what happens next. like it was when we started with regular sups... if you go too small too fast you will regret it. you can still have alot of fun on a 120 l board and i have 90 kg buddies who have no plans to go lower than 120l.

Got it - 110 liter board at least. And yes, I'm looking at 2000-2400cm2 foils.
Thank you Sir

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jb74 said..
I'm looking at the 'wingers' for a while. They slide smoothly in conditions when I have to switch to my 17m kite and a lightwind twintip. Not to mention their upwind ability is enviable. Long story short, after 10 years of kiting I've decided to taste the flavor of wing-foiling. I read a lot about it but I have no possibility to try/rent a gear. So, I'll buy it. Not sure how different are the dings. But I assume the board and foil are more important. I will look for a low aspect front wing with plenty of lift capability.a Naish JET 2000 COMPLETE maybe or something similar. I would need help with the board though. They are pretty expensive (yeah...the foils as well...). From one hand I would like a board that fits for a beginner. On the other hand I don't want a board that I'll outgrow within a short period of time. So, in your experience what board should I look for? My weight is 90kg. I assume I should start with a board that has enough volume and won't sink under my weight. I've read about recommendations like rider's weight +40liter. That sounds a bit too much for me. A 130liter board is pretty bulky. I would use it for wingfoiling only, light, mainly in 13-14 knots, choppy conditions. It depends on the board weight and construction as well, but don't you think a 110liter board would be enough for a 90kg rider? Like HOVER WING/SUP 110 liter? Let me know what's your experience. Thanks

You mentioned choppy conditions. Which makes a big difference when learning.
At 80kg I struggled in wind chop that was up to 30cm/1foot on a lake. But my JP board was 96 litres x 26 wide x 6ft 8". So In my view it's the width of the board that makes a difference in balance. I see most SUP foil boards are still over 26 wide.
If I was in your position I would choose the widest SUP out of my chosen same volume & length boards.
I think 110 to 115 litres will be fine for your 90kgs body weight.

By the way, I have 2 boards I use for both Wing & Surf. I prefer my wider higher volume board for surf foiling without a wing because it helps when standing still & waiting for a wave in fairly choppy swirly water.
But I prefer my narrower low volume board for winging because the board gets quite stable as soon as the wind pushes. And I know that I could go substantially less in board size & volume now for winging.
I still don't do knee starts. I get up & balance, pull the wing to me & start from there. So knee starts would be even more stable.

Select to expand quote

You mentioned choppy conditions. Which makes a big difference when learning.
At 80kg I struggled in wind chop that was up to 30cm/1foot on a lake. But my JP board was 96 litres x 26 wide x 6ft 8". So In my view it's the width of the board that makes a difference in balance. I see most SUP foil boards are still over 26 wide.
If I was in your position I would choose the widest SUP out of my chosen same volume & length boards.
I think 110 to 115 litres will be fine for your 90kgs body weight.

I still don't do knee starts. I get up & balance, pull the wing to me & start from there. So knee starts would be even more stable.

ok, it's obvious that I don't know too much about foiling. So far I thought till the board is on the water, as wider as stable. But when you are already up and foiling, a narrower board is more forgiven, you can correct easier the mistakes. Based on your comment this is not the reality. Thanks for your input

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jb74 said..

You mentioned choppy conditions. Which makes a big difference when learning.
At 80kg I struggled in wind chop that was up to 30cm/1foot on a lake. But my JP board was 96 litres x 26 wide x 6ft 8". So In my view it's the width of the board that makes a difference in balance. I see most SUP foil boards are still over 26 wide.
If I was in your position I would choose the widest SUP out of my chosen same volume & length boards.
I think 110 to 115 litres will be fine for your 90kgs body weight.

I still don't do knee starts. I get up & balance, pull the wing to me & start from there. So knee starts would be even more stable.

ok, it's obvious that I don't know too much about foiling. So far I thought till the board is on the water, as wider as stable. But when you are already up and foiling, a narrower board is more forgiven, you can correct easier the mistakes. Based on your comment this is not the reality. Thanks for your input

JB74. I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was saying. So basically a wider board is more stable when floating on the water. A smaller board when up foiling is basically easier to do harder quicker turns. And maybe easier to rebalance.
So for me as a beginner I feel more comfortable learning on a wider board.
But if I can get a narrow board to go with the wind then its easier to balance the faster I go.
But I can get blown off a narrow board easily when I'm motionless. I can also fall off a narrow board in choppy water when I'm motionless. So it's harder for me to get going in these conditions. Once I'm up on foil then it's easier & all about balancing your foil and wing. But a big board will not be as reactive to your control.
Hope this makes sense as a beginner winger.

Seajuice - makes perfect sense, thank you. I wish I was at a level when using a narrower board :-)

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Seajuice said..

jb74 said..

You mentioned choppy conditions. Which makes a big difference when learning.
At 80kg I struggled in wind chop that was up to 30cm/1foot on a lake. But my JP board was 96 litres x 26 wide x 6ft 8". So In my view it's the width of the board that makes a difference in balance. I see most SUP foil boards are still over 26 wide.
If I was in your position I would choose the widest SUP out of my chosen same volume & length boards.
I think 110 to 115 litres will be fine for your 90kgs body weight.

I still don't do knee starts. I get up & balance, pull the wing to me & start from there. So knee starts would be even more stable.

ok, it's obvious that I don't know too much about foiling. So far I thought till the board is on the water, as wider as stable. But when you are already up and foiling, a narrower board is more forgiven, you can correct easier the mistakes. Based on your comment this is not the reality. Thanks for your input

JB74. I'm not sure if you misunderstood what I was saying. So basically a wider board is more stable when floating on the water. A smaller board when up foiling is basically easier to do harder quicker turns. And maybe easier to rebalance.
So for me as a beginner I feel more comfortable learning on a wider board.
But if I can get a narrow board to go with the wind then its easier to balance the faster I go.
But I can get blown off a narrow board easily when I'm motionless. I can also fall off a narrow board in choppy water when I'm motionless. So it's harder for me to get going in these conditions. Once I'm up on foil then it's easier & all about balancing your foil and wing. But a big board will not be as reactive to your control.
Hope this makes sense as a beginner winger.

One logic based on leverage would make one think a wider board would be easier to turn.
All a bit confusing however most reports indicate small as comfortable is best.

I found the bigger wider board would yaw on the turn but then keep bloody yawing and over. Harder to readjust. I reckon the wind hits them to causing issue. Plus the smaller it is the easier to pump.

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mcross19 said..
What about a Quatro wing drifter Pro? 5'8" is 115L and lighter than the Fanatic 5'8"

I'm 90 kg and I started on 115 l wing drifter. And still on it and it will probably stay with it for reasons of sup surfing foiling and safety - ability to paddle home etc...I sometimes wish I had started on the 105 litre. I came from no foil no kite background but intermediate sup surf. It depends on your previous skills. I could have started smaller. Foil technique and sail handling are the challenge for me.

Question. Does the volume needed change much for fresh water vs salt water?

I'm going to have a wing board made for mainly fresh water. 5'8 x 30" wide, the dimensions seem right for my second board, but the volume is my question. At 90 kg 193cm tall, was thinking 115 liters would be good but after reading this thread I wonder if 105 may be better. My goal with this goal is to have and keep this a easy to use lightweight board for my old man low skill level abilities. Any thoughts?

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Fishdude said..
Question. Does the volume needed change much for fresh water vs salt water?

Density of salt water is 1025 kg per m3, fresh water is 1000kg per m3, so difference to buoyancy is 2.5%. or in other words, you would need to add 2.5 litres to a 100 litre board to get the same immersion in fresh water, so probably no noticeable difference in the feel or performance of the board

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eppo said..
I found the bigger wider board would yaw on the turn but then keep bloody yawing and over. Harder to readjust. I reckon the wind hits them to causing issue. Plus the smaller it is the easier to pump.

I'm on a 5'2" that is 28" wide. It's awesome up to about 20-25kts and then the wind really starts to interfere with it....it flutters around and the worst thing is that the wind pushes the nose up coming out of gybes. I end up taking quite a few metres to shuffle forward, and get it under control again

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Fishdude said..
Question. Does the volume needed change much for fresh water vs salt water?

I'm going to have a wing board made for mainly fresh water. 5'8 x 30" wide, the dimensions seem right for my second board, but the volume is my question. At 90 kg 193cm tall, was thinking 115 liters would be good but after reading this thread I wonder if 105 may be better. My goal with this goal is to have and keep this a easy to use lightweight board for my old man low skill level abilities. Any thoughts?

I would make good light wind option for your weight.

I am 85kg dry and have two boards - both around the same volume 105-108liters.
But one is 6' x 31" and the other is 4'7" x 26.5".

They perform VERY differently from each other, in all the ways you'd expect. The volume of both, however does mean that in light winds I can float comfortably on both.
I really feel like small volume is not the answer. Short length and light weight is.

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Nolipoli said..
I am 85kg dry and have two boards - both around the same volume 105-108liters.
But one is 6' x 31" and the other is 4'7" x 26.5".

They perform VERY differently from each other, in all the ways you'd expect. The volume of both, however does mean that in light winds I can float comfortably on both.
I really feel like small volume is not the answer. Short length and light weight is.

Very nice. How thick is the 4'7"?