Regarding volume, do you think that for this type of light wind board (mid-length or DW), we should start with a volume corresponding to our weight + how much more ?

The subject of thickness often comes up with thick boards, which are often considered unstable, but what is the ideal thickness, or rather, how much thicker can we go for to have a stable board? I assume that stability is due to the thickness but also to the shape of the hull and the type of rails (square or with large bevels).

For width, how much should we aim for between minimum and maximum in order to have a good stability/glide ratio ?

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Fatben said..
Regarding volume, do you think that for this type of light wind board (mid-length or DW), we should start with a volume corresponding to our weight + how much more ?

The subject of thickness often comes up with thick boards, which are often considered unstable, but what is the ideal thickness, or rather, how much thicker can we go for to have a stable board? I assume that stability is due to the thickness but also to the shape of the hull and the type of rails (square or with large bevels).

For width, how much should we aim for between minimum and maximum in order to have a good stability/glide ratio ?

Try to aim for 140 liter, 20" wide, 8 feet long and 4" thickness. Let me know what you find.

I do not think stability is due to thickness.

Width/Thickness = what should we call this, your Log Factor? lol.

My 18" board is 5-15/16" thick so 18/5.9375 = 3.03 which is quite tippy.

My 20" board is 4-11/16" thick so 20/4.6875 = 4.27 which is not tippy for me at all.

The lower that width to thickness ratio gets the closer your board is to being a straight up log that is crazy tippy. The higher it is the more your board is like a flat panel with a low center of gravity allowing you to stay balanced.

The problem is the volume that is your friend requires the addition of thickness which is not your friend.

This is why on DW type boards for wingfoil often the boards are either very long (+8') and narrow (19" to 20") or they are a little shorter (7'3 / 7'6) but wider (23" / 24") and generally with thicknesses of around 5"5 to 5"75.
So the volume is either stored along the length or along the width....

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Fatben said..
This is why on DW type boards for wingfoil often the boards are either very long (+8') and narrow (19" to 20") or they are a little shorter (7'3 / 7'6) but wider (23" / 24") and generally with thicknesses of around 5"5 to 5"75.
So the volume is either stored along the length or along the width....

I think you are all over the place with your questions. You don't specify your location, which would help in determining a board available. Then guys keep telling you what they have without much details. You want ultra light winds and high volume. My choice without having a conflict of interest would be the 2024 KT Ginxu Dragonfly Surf 145. It is 8'4" x 22.75 and 6.9kg. That is of course you can get it where you live.

If you don't like a hardboard, the Gong Cruzader HIPE 7'11' 150 liter. I don't know anyone that has one in the USA. Not a fan of inflatables, but it seems that a few large guys like them in Europe. I would like to hear some feedback about big guys riding it and the quality.

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BWalnut said..
I do not think stability is due to thickness.

Width/Thickness = what should we call this, your Log Factor? lol.

My 18" board is 5-15/16" thick so 18/5.9375 = 3.03 which is quite tippy.

My 20" board is 4-11/16" thick so 20/4.6875 = 4.27 which is not tippy for me at all.

The lower that width to thickness ratio gets the closer your board is to being a straight up log that is crazy tippy. The higher it is the more your board is like a flat panel with a low center of gravity allowing you to stay balanced.

The problem is the volume that is your friend requires the addition of thickness which is not your friend.

You don't think stability is due to thickness? The denominator has a delta of 5. It certainly does based on your Log Factor. Let's break it down simply with your examples: The ratio jumps from ~3.03 to ~4.27 mostly because of the thickness drop (from 5.94" to 4.69"). If you only changed the width to 20" and kept thickness the same, it'd only go to ~3.37-not nearly as stable. But dropping thickness alone (keeping width at 18") gets you to ~3.84, which is most of the gain. Thickness is in the denominator, so changes there hit the ratio harder than width tweaks. It's the bigger lever for stability here, even if volume needs it!

I'm in France, 1m89 tall and 110kg+, and I mainly sail on lakes. Currently, I have a 6'4 x 29' Phantom Strato with a 130-liter capacity, which suits me perfectly with my size/level and my progression phase (I can do jibes and foot changes on both sides at +/-75%).

The goal isn't ultra-light wind, which for me is under 10 knots. The ideal would be to be able to sail from 10 knots with much more ease (especially for takeoff) than with my current board, my North Loft Pro 7m? and my big Axis BSC1120.

For the board, I don't want an inflatable board... I want a rigid board, around 7' to 7'8 max, with a volume of at least 130 liters (my weight + 20) and I don't want a width that's too narrow. I was thinking 22" to 24". I'd also like it to have strap inserts (I always ride with the front ones), even though this type of board would be more pleasant to ride without straps according to feedback.

For the models I've seen:

- AK Nomad 7'6 x 24'5 x 5'6, 140 liters
- AK Nomad 2 7'8 x 23' x 5'9, 135 liters
- JP M-Winger 7'3 x 24' x 5'5, 135 liters

Rail shape and how parallel the rails are is at least as important as width.
Thickness makes for poor on water stability and in flight response. Bad place to be chasing volume, which you need less of than you are thinking.

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Fatben said..
I'm in France, 1m89 tall and 110kg+, and I mainly sail on lakes. Currently, I have a 6'4 x 29' Phantom Strato with a 130-liter capacity, which suits me perfectly with my size/level and my progression phase (I can do jibes and foot changes on both sides at +/-75%).

The goal isn't ultra-light wind, which for me is under 10 knots. The ideal would be to be able to sail from 10 knots with much more ease (especially for takeoff) than with my current board, my North Loft Pro 7m? and my big Axis BSC1120.

For the board, I don't want an inflatable board... I want a rigid board, around 7' to 7'8 max, with a volume of at least 130 liters (my weight + 20) and I don't want a width that's too narrow. I was thinking 22" to 24". I'd also like it to have strap inserts (I always ride with the front ones), even though this type of board would be more pleasant to ride without straps according to feedback.

For the models I've seen:

- AK Nomad 7'6 x 24'5 x 5'6, 140 liters
- AK Nomad 2 7'8 x 23' x 5'9, 135 liters
- JP M-Winger 7'3 x 24' x 5'5, 135 liters

If you can do flying jibes and flying foot switches, you have skills that don't require a board that big. If you are looking at 10+ knots, get a midlength around 110l and you will not look back. E.g. something like that in 110l ktfoiling.com/boards/super-k-2-carbon/

I have already tested a mid length of 6'6 x 24'1/2 of 124 liters and I really want something longer especially for the Ligh t!!!

I've been doing my jibes and foot changes since July, the jibes are going at +/-75%, on the foot changes I have a little more waste....
I would really like a "slippery" board and I think, perhaps wrongly, that adding length compared to a mid length would make me gain some.

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Fatben said..
I have already tested a mid length of 6'6 x 24'1/2 of 124 liters and I really want something longer especially for the Ligh t!!!

That's too short, too wide and subsequently far too thick.

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Fatben said..
I have already tested a mid length of 6'6 x 24'1/2 of 124 liters and I really want something longer especially for the Ligh t!!!

Again, you need to disclose which board. It is futile without information.

I am 100kg at 6'2". reasonable level of skill for a 47YO. This is my light wind gear. Make your own calls on how windy you think it is, but I can tell you it was ridiculously light!

Board - Naish Chimera 108L - 6'6" x 22.7" x 5.8"
Wing - Naish ATOM 8m
Mast - 75cm Naish HM
Foil - Prototype 1144cm2 AR10.2

Cross offshore ultra light winds. Boat wash, but flat.

I was absolutely amazed I got up, but even more amazed how much fun I had. Yachts were literally flapping back and forth. I put a lot of it down to the wing/Atom, that thing is amazing, so much forward drive!

?si=_Af76cQzhXQrdVtB

Ride safe,

JB

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Windgenuity said..
I am 100kg at 6'2". reasonable level of skill for a 47YO. This is my light wind gear. Make your own calls on how windy you think it is, but I can tell you it was ridiculously light!

Board - Naish Chimera 108L - 6'6" x 22.7" x 5.8"
Wing - Naish ATOM 8m
Mast - 75cm Naish HM
Foil - Prototype 1144cm2 AR10.2

Cross offshore ultra light winds. Boat wash, but flat.

I was absolutely amazed I got up, but even more amazed how much fun I had. Yachts were literally flapping back and forth. I put a lot of it down to the wing/Atom, that thing is amazing, so much forward drive!

?si=_Af76cQzhXQrdVtB

Ride safe,

JB

+1

JB, I am pleased you said it was fun as I enjoy light wind as well, some guys just don't get it.

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Warwick..some guys just don't get it.

Yep I don't

The big 8.0 and 9.0 m2 wings are like cheating : ) There is a getting going example at 02:15.



As a light weight rider I very much prefer to keep the wing size more realistic, and to have a board that floats me well enough instead, which then makes it possible to build up the board speed even with a relatively small wing. 4.6 m2 wing and 92 L board n this clip, not a windy day. A nice fast foil and a good thin mast is half of the magic of course, and once the apparent wind fills in you feel decently powered, despite the small wing size.



That said, at least on our lake there comes a point where there is enough wind to use a smaller board and why not a bigger wing. But for the days when you expect to sometimes slowly move up to 1 km to a place where there are wind gusts, a board that floats you no problem is better.

An interesting discussion. I am 95kg wringing wet with all of my gear on and I have been trying to decipher the LW options and settled on a Starboard ACE Foil 7'2 (115L x 21.5w), a SAB 1160 (1060cm2) HA foil (glide is amazing at 12.4 AR) and a 6m SMIK wing. With the above gear (and not a lot of skill or experience), I am easily sailing in 11kts.
The interesting point I noted is that the board does not feel large as a lot of the board is behind me. I recommend the extra 20+ litres in light wind. It will save you expending a lot of energy and, if you have to paddle home, the extra floatation is nice.

Thanks for your feedback, I actually had the idea of ??going on a 7'3 to 7'8 board with a volume of at least 130 liters (my weight 110kg + 20).
I'm making a parallel with the SUP that I practice, the more comfortable you are in terms of balance on the board standing up and the more efficient you are at paddling so you take more waves, you spend more time on the water, you get tired less quickly and you progress faster, especially when you are in the progression phase, then for experienced riders with much less miss in the maneuvers, there it is different and the balance/comfort can be more delicate.

SUP and winging are two different sports. I would need way more volume for SUP vs light wind winging.

Yes I agree, the volume is very different in SUP than in Wingfoil, what I wanted to say was the importance in each discipline of having a minimum of comfort and stability for the start and departure which greatly helps to practice longer, get less tired, have more fun and ultimately progress more quickly.

Dimensions and shape matter far more than volume for winging but you keep getting held up on volume after everyone tells you it isn't that important.

Hi Fatben,
I'm a scrawny 70kg, so this might not be so relevant.
For ultra light stuff, I have a Smik DW board for winging in 10 knots of less. Its 7'10 x 22 x 134L. Love it. Super stable in the river where there's lots of slop. Cuts thru the water really well to get up on foil. I could go smaller in vol, but it then becomes more difficult to balance. Bottom shape also seems to play a part. Flatter bottom is more stable but a little 'stickier', than a rounded hull. I've recently used a Duotone skybrid and it also got up very quickly, but a little less stable at 115 litres.
I use a 4m wing as I can pump it much more efficiently than anything bigger. Bigger wings I find I catch the tips, stuffing up the pump on foil. Which is a big factor when you're using lots of energy to get up.
As for foils, I'm using the new PnG V2 1400. I can pump like mad in 9 knots to get going. I can pump the wing and foil to get through 5 knot lulls. It's transformed light stuff into huge fun. I've used the old PnG1300 and the 1400 outperforms it everywhere. You need a black fuse for the 1400. My 2c is don't get an advance fuse unless you want a super loose feel. They're bloody tricky. Think Axis are going to release some not so radical black fuses soon as the original black fuses in longer lengths have been discontinued.

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martyj4 said..
Hi Fatben,
I'm a scrawny 70kg, so this might not be so relevant.
For ultra light stuff, I have a Smik DW board for winging in 10 knots of less. Its 7'10 x 22 x 134L. Love it. Super stable in the river where there's lots of slop. Cuts thru the water really well to get up on foil. I could go smaller in vol, but it then becomes more difficult to balance. Bottom shape also seems to play a part. Flatter bottom is more stable but a little 'stickier', than a rounded hull. I've recently used a Duotone skybrid and it also got up very quickly, but a little less stable at 115 litres.
I use a 4m wing as I can pump it much more efficiently than anything bigger. Bigger wings I find I catch the tips, stuffing up the pump on foil. Which is a big factor when you're using lots of energy to get up.
As for foils, I'm using the new PnG V2 1400. I can pump like mad in 9 knots to get going. I can pump the wing and foil to get through 5 knot lulls. It's transformed light stuff into huge fun. I've used the old PnG1300 and the 1400 outperforms it everywhere. You need a black fuse for the 1400. My 2c is don't get an advance fuse unless you want a super loose feel. They're bloody tricky. Think Axis are going to release some not so radical black fuses soon as the original black fuses in longer lengths have been discontinued.

Title is best choice for light wind. Your 70kg and a board of 134 liter???? Just imagine what the 110 kg poster would have to get?

Yes, it's certain that 70kg with a 2m28 board and 134 liters with in addition a PNG V2 of 1400 you should take off very very early without much effort. At this weight, you should be able to take off just as early with a smaller board and a smaller foil without too much problem...

As many of you mentioned, for me 12-14 kts is already windy - enough to pop up my freestyle board (4'10" ? 21" - 55 L) with a 4.6 wing and my 720S. I weigh 70 kg. For me, light wind means anything from 6 to 10 kts max, and that's where the equipment really makes a difference. In my opinion, the board is the most important element. The longer and narrower it is, the easier it will be to get on foil. Taking 8-10 kts as a reference: - With my downwind board (7'6" ? 17" - 95 L) I can take off with the 720S. - With my midlength (6'2" ? 19" - 72 L) I can take off with the 850S. - With my freestyle board, I can't take off at all. In terms of stability, I'd say it's about 70% from the foil underwater and 30% from the board. Wider-span foils provide plenty of stability. For the board, length and volume matter more than width - and even more so, the hull shape. A sharp, edgy hull offers better stability than a rounded one.

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scheggia said..
As many of you mentioned, for me 12-14 kts is already windy - enough to pop up my freestyle board (4'10" ? 21" - 55 L) with a 4.6 wing and my 720S. I weigh 70 kg. For me, light wind means anything from 6 to 10 kts max, and that's where the equipment really makes a difference. In my opinion, the board is the most important element. The longer and narrower it is, the easier it will be to get on foil. Taking 8-10 kts as a reference: - With my downwind board (7'6" ? 17" - 95 L) I can take off with the 720S. - With my midlength (6'2" ? 19" - 72 L) I can take off with the 850S. - With my freestyle board, I can't take off at all. In terms of stability, I'd say it's about 70% from the foil underwater and 30% from the board. Wider-span foils provide plenty of stability. For the board, length and volume matter more than width - and even more so, the hull shape. A sharp, edgy hull offers better stability than a rounded one.

For some, 12 to 14 knots is light wind, but you weigh 70 kg. If I weighed 70 kg, I would certainly see 12/14 knots differently.
So for you, between a Mid-Length board and a DW board, for the Light, there is a real difference and a gain in taking off earlier.
Indeed, for the influence of length and volume, the longer the board, the more it will float, or rather the less it will sink, the easier it will glide and plane.
Regarding the bottom shape, you therefore recommend a shape with very straight and square rails rather than a rounded shape or one with large bevels !?

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Fatben said..

scheggia said..
As many of you mentioned, for me 12-14 kts is already windy - enough to pop up my freestyle board (4'10" ? 21" - 55 L) with a 4.6 wing and my 720S. I weigh 70 kg. For me, light wind means anything from 6 to 10 kts max, and that's where the equipment really makes a difference. In my opinion, the board is the most important element. The longer and narrower it is, the easier it will be to get on foil. Taking 8-10 kts as a reference: - With my downwind board (7'6" ? 17" - 95 L) I can take off with the 720S. - With my midlength (6'2" ? 19" - 72 L) I can take off with the 850S. - With my freestyle board, I can't take off at all. In terms of stability, I'd say it's about 70% from the foil underwater and 30% from the board. Wider-span foils provide plenty of stability. For the board, length and volume matter more than width - and even more so, the hull shape. A sharp, edgy hull offers better stability than a rounded one.

For some, 12 to 14 knots is light wind, but you weigh 70 kg. If I weighed 70 kg, I would certainly see 12/14 knots differently.
So for you, between a Mid-Length board and a DW board, for the Light, there is a real difference and a gain in taking off earlier.
Indeed, for the influence of length and volume, the longer the board, the more it will float, or rather the less it will sink, the easier it will glide and plane.
Regarding the bottom shape, you therefore recommend a shape with very straight and square rails rather than a rounded shape or one with large bevels !?

A neutral volume midlength is more than enough to get going in true 12-14 knots no matter what weight. You don't need a DW board for winging in 12-14 knots.

Currently with my 6'4 x 29' 130 liter + BSC1120 + 7m? North Loft Pro I can get down to around 11.5/12 knots, but ideally I would like to get down to 10 knots (not necessarily lower) but more easily.
With my intermediate level, I prefer to take a DW with a little more volume knowing that it will be a second "special light wind" board.