After some crowdsourced advice. Currently riding 85cm V2 mast + 60cm fuse which dates back to kiting days. Keen to change down to a shorter mast and shorter fuse, and probably grab the dart 120 tail. Use case is downwinding with parawing and occasional winging.

First question - given that I'm basically replacing everything but the front wing, if I was to switch brands now would be a logical time. I know its a question that is asked a million times but is there a better option balancing cost + performance compared with Armie (riding HA880)

Second question - is the performance carbon mast worth an extra grand? In a shorter mast with a not huge weight (I'm 75kg) is there enough improvement to get excited about?

A better mast is something you wont appreciate until you have it. Once you've had it, you can't go back.

As far as brands go, the big question is what style of riding are you doing and what do you want from your foils? That answer will lead you to the right brand.

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BWalnut said..
A better mast is something you wont appreciate until you have it. Once you've had it, you can't go back.

As far as brands go, the big question is what style of riding are you doing and what do you want from your foils? That answer will lead you to the right brand.

Downwinding in typical Perth conditions, I guess you'd say preferring a skate-style ride. If i could get similar glide performance to the HA880 but something that allows a bit more aggressive hack and slash turning I'd be down to clown with that.

i ask myself the same question. i have thousands of dollars invested in Armstrong foils, but when i see something like the Unifoil and how stiff it all is compared to the loose connections of the Armstrong gear, i wonder if it's worth a change. I know selling the Armie stuff will get me pennies on the dollar. For now, I just cannot justify it, but if you aren't as vested, I'd seriously look at the comp.

I will say the performance mast was not a game changer for me. I'm not particularly technical about my riding or my gear, but I really didn't notice any difference between my older masts and the performance ones. I'm about 90 kgs, so these masts supposedly would be more noticeable for me, and yet...not.

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beached57 said..
i ask myself the same question. i have thousands of dollars invested in Armstrong foils, but when i see something like the Unifoil and how stiff it all is compared to the loose connections of the Armstrong gear, i wonder if it's worth a change. I know selling the Armie stuff will get me pennies on the dollar. For now, I just cannot justify it, but if you aren't as vested, I'd seriously look at the comp.

I will say the performance mast was not a game changer for me. I'm not particularly technical about my riding or my gear, but I really didn't notice any difference between my older masts and the performance ones. I'm about 90 kgs, so these masts supposedly would be more noticeable for me, and yet...not.

If your mast / wing connections have loosened up due to wear overtime, there are ways to fix that - start by spraying thin layers of clear coat on the fuse.

If Armstrong could license the new Slingshot Surloc design, I'd be game to buy that in a second. Over time, the wear just results in a slightly shorter fuse. And no screws.

Agree with the prior comment regarding mast stiffness. Always go for the stiffest mast you can afford or you will regret it later.

My first criteria for any brand are (1) mast stiffness, and (2) how solid are the various connections. If a brand cant offer a very stiff mast and very solid connections, I can't consider them. A brand can offer the best foils on the market, but if the system has any discernable flex or slop the performance of those foils can't be appreciated. I don't have a lot of experience riding Armstrong, and while I have no doubt that they offer a very stiff mast, I really don't like the engineering of their connections, particularly the wing to fuse connection. Ive seen some very sloppy armstrong fitment, and the way that the connection is engineered, the bolts just don't exert force to tighten it up. YMMV

Loose connections on Armstrong foils????
What???

I find mine very stiff. Nothing is moving and the whole thing is plenty stiff

Particularly when compared to the likes of F-One, Sab, Duotone, North....

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..

BWalnut said..
A better mast is something you wont appreciate until you have it. Once you've had it, you can't go back.

As far as brands go, the big question is what style of riding are you doing and what do you want from your foils? That answer will lead you to the right brand.

Downwinding in typical Perth conditions, I guess you'd say preferring a skate-style ride. If i could get similar glide performance to the HA880 but something that allows a bit more aggressive hack and slash turning I'd be down to clown with that.

Yeah that "skate-style ride" is what I was looking for.

I have not heard reports of that being a defining characteristic of Armstrong. They have their strong points but I don't typically hear people raving about that element so you're probably thinking the right way.

Almost all I do is skate style riding downwind and I am really critical of my kit so here is what I'd say:

First off measure the chord of your mast. The shorter that chord is the more skate-style your ride will be, especially on foil spans 900mm and wider (I was looking at a friends Armstrong mast yesterday and thought wow, that's a really deep chord). I ride AFS and the chord on my mast is 100mm and 12.8mm thick for the majority of the length. I can ride the Silk 1050 in a huge range of conditions and with small third party tails that foil and mast combo can keep up on all my DW runs in the Gorge. BUT, I don't know if that foil, even with the right tail and mast would keep up in the open ocean. AFS Enduro would probably be the right call but I don't have experience on it yet to say if it's skatey.

If you are willing to roll the dice on a third party mast I'd go www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/one-foils/p/hm-foil-mast and that 84cm mast paired with a Code adapter will give you a crazy thin, fast mast, with a dramatically reduced chord vs the Armstrong for more skate performance. Then slap on an 850s or 980s with the short fuse and a small tail and I'd expect your mind would be blown.

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SlowlyButSurely said..
Loose connections on Armstrong foils????
What???

I find mine very stiff. Nothing is moving and the whole thing is plenty stiff

Particularly when compared to the likes of F-One, Sab, Duotone, North....

I think exactly the same. if there is 1 brand stiff with good connexion is armstrong. With which other brand it would possible to navigate without the screws of the mast/fuselage and front wing?.

I was thinking along the same lines a few months ago and was on HA1125 and HA925 as well as MAs and HS. Had not actually tried the HAv2. Managed to get a rental of the AFS UHM Mast and Enduro 900 set up while I was on Fuerteventura and had a really good wing wave day on it. Almost pulled the trigger but it was going to be a lot of money to move to AFS so held off.
Then found a second hand HA980 on eBay so gave it a go and am very pleased with it, not a massive difference in performance to the Enduro900 and a much cheaper option. Now looking for the HA780 and maybe 1180 for a set.
I also found a DW775 on eBay and bought that, wow, that foil is something else and am looking forward to finding some DW swell on it this summer. It's noticably harder to get the best out of it than the HAv2 though, more like the HAv1 in character.
I'm on the 795 HP mast and for sure it makes all of the Armstrong foils perform better, you can feel the foil under your feet much better than the old A+ mast and its much more reliable in white water or transitions.
As a brand on here Armstrong gets more than its fair share of flak for one thing or another, often from riders who have limited experience on the foils. Not sure why that is. It's common to see 'Armstrong Fanboy' used in a obvious disparaging way or that the foil has too many bolts or 'loads' of play. I have thousands of hours on my kit now and have only just replaced my 60cm fuselage for wear.
There is a huge range of front wings to choose from and all fit on the same system so you can try out secondhand stuff relatively cheaply. If it has play in the front wing to fuse its usually because its old, worn an little and hasnt been tightened up properly since new. If you put it together properly it takes a very long time to wear out.
If you can, try and get a demo of the HP mast and if the HAv2 is feeling a bit pedestrian maybe try the DW755 on it before spending a fortune on another brand often with less choice of wings and stabs.
I have found the HAv2 to be so easy to use that it lacks excitement compared to the HAv1 but for sure its a great foil.

if you have both a Unifoil and an Armstrong setup in front of you, and you wiggle the front and/or rear wing on both, you'll notice a considerable difference in tightness, with the Unifoil feeling far more solid. I've had a couple of friends switch over from Armstrong and they're quite happy. But honestly, I'm quite happy with Armstrong overall and really like the new HA wings (1180 and 780 for me). All I was saying is that if I didn't have so much money invested in Armstrong, I'd certainly be open to looking at alternatives. I personally haven't ridden the Unifoil so i don't know if i'd like it any more or less; I only know it feels more solid than my gear (which isn't that old).

For DW / proning the performance mast is a must - massive change. I will still on the 725/925/1125 when i changed to the PM which really highlighted the difference. Eaxh brand has its cons and pros to be honest. the HA is a good allrounder we prone, sup, wing and DW them. For DW they are particularly good for surf style carving, could do with some more glide at times but tails can help with that. Also you can ride a much smaller size than you'd ever think. You should try the 780 at a bare minimum. Very noticeable my better roll, carve and speed.

As far as sloppy connections - i challenge most to how many hours we have spent on the water last two years infact i racked up so far 1589km just for DW this summer - never had connection issues. I do think there are better connection systems out there (i do like say the AFS system) but it works well enough. I also know there are other tails and front wings in the pipeline.

Best to try other brands and see - but you can't compare them using the older A plus mast though - that's not a levelling playing field.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. Demo everything you can get your hands on.

Would like to add that the Cedrus Evo mast is actually a really good option for Armstrong. The aluminium fuse has a very tight fit with the front wings. The 3x M8 bolts for the mast-fuse connection make it really solid as well. Would dare to say that this Armstrong fuse connection is almost better than the original Armstrong connection? And you keeps options open if you want to try out something else in the end.
The mast itself is a bit less stiff than anticipated when it arrived. But I came to peace with that and it really feels smooth and 'invisible' with the foils I use (max span: HA880/DWP685).

When I watch 'JD follow cam' looks like over half the riders are always on Armie gear and that's in GF territory!

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FarNorthSurfer said..
I was thinking along the same lines a few months ago and was on HA1125 and HA925 as well as MAs and HS. Had not actually tried the HAv2. Managed to get a rental of the AFS UHM Mast and Enduro 900 set up while I was on Fuerteventura and had a really good wing wave day on it. Almost pulled the trigger but it was going to be a lot of money to move to AFS so held off.
Then found a second hand HA980 on eBay so gave it a go and am very pleased with it, not a massive difference in performance to the Enduro900 and a much cheaper option. Now looking for the HA780 and maybe 1180 for a set.
I also found a DW775 on eBay and bought that, wow, that foil is something else and am looking forward to finding some DW swell on it this summer. It's noticably harder to get the best out of it than the HAv2 though, more like the HAv1 in character.
I'm on the 795 HP mast and for sure it makes all of the Armstrong foils perform better, you can feel the foil under your feet much better than the old A+ mast and its much more reliable in white water or transitions.
As a brand on here Armstrong gets more than its fair share of flak for one thing or another, often from riders who have limited experience on the foils. Not sure why that is. It's common to see 'Armstrong Fanboy' used in a obvious disparaging way or that the foil has too many bolts or 'loads' of play. I have thousands of hours on my kit now and have only just replaced my 60cm fuselage for wear.
There is a huge range of front wings to choose from and all fit on the same system so you can try out secondhand stuff relatively cheaply. If it has play in the front wing to fuse its usually because its old, worn an little and hasnt been tightened up properly since new. If you put it together properly it takes a very long time to wear out.
If you can, try and get a demo of the HP mast and if the HAv2 is feeling a bit pedestrian maybe try the DW755 on it before spending a fortune on another brand often with less choice of wings and stabs.
I have found the HAv2 to be so easy to use that it lacks excitement compared to the HAv1 but for sure its a great foil.

average Armstrong fanboy response

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beached57 said..
i ask myself the same question. i have thousands of dollars invested in Armstrong foils, but when i see something like the Unifoil and how stiff it all is compared to the loose connections of the Armstrong gear, i wonder if it's worth a change. I know selling the Armie stuff will get me pennies on the dollar. For now, I just cannot justify it, but if you aren't as vested, I'd seriously look at the comp.

I will say the performance mast was not a game changer for me. I'm not particularly technical about my riding or my gear, but I really didn't notice any difference between my older masts and the performance ones. I'm about 90 kgs, so these masts supposedly would be more noticeable for me, and yet...not.

Very much wondering that as everyone raves about the performance mast but not sure if i'll notice, particularly if i'm dropping down to a shorter mast. the HA880 is my biggest foil so don't see that i'm putting that much load into it. But then everyone says its amazing...

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FarNorthSurfer said..

If you can, try and get a demo of the HP mast and if the HAv2 is feeling a bit pedestrian maybe try the DW755 on it before spending a fortune on another brand often with less choice of wings and stabs.
I have found the HAv2 to be so easy to use that it lacks excitement compared to the HAv1 but for sure its a great foil.

Similar experience, the HAv2 is great but going from the 925 to the 880 I missed the skittish behaviour a bit!

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eppo said..
For DW / proning the performance mast is a must - massive change. I will still on the 725/925/1125 when i changed to the PM which really highlighted the difference. Eaxh brand has its cons and pros to be honest. the HA is a good allrounder we prone, sup, wing and DW them. For DW they are particularly good for surf style carving, could do with some more glide at times but tails can help with that. Also you can ride a much smaller size than you'd ever think. You should try the 780 at a bare minimum. Very noticeable my better roll, carve and speed.

As far as sloppy connections - i challenge most to how many hours we have spent on the water last two years infact i racked up so far 1589km just for DW this summer - never had connection issues. I do think there are better connection systems out there (i do like say the AFS system) but it works well enough. I also know there are other tails and front wings in the pipeline.

Best to try other brands and see - but you can't compare them using the older A plus mast though - that's not a levelling playing field.

Do you use the 780 as a daily driver? I always feel like smaller than the 880 I might be struggling putting together a full run in Perth, but that could be user error to some degree.

If you need to swapp almost everything, the new KT stuff is something to considder.It's significantly less expensive and what I hear back from mates who have a lot of experience with both is that they sail pretty much the same.
Everyone thought the Carbon KT mast was stiffer and felt better than the Performance mast.

(I,m fully into AFS and really happy with it, but if my garage with gear burns down, I would probably go the KT route just because the pretty neat prices).

Recently upgraded my Armstrong kit (inc mast) and found it easy to sell on my old Armstrong stuff. Not sure how easy it will be to sell on Unifoil kit (at least here in the UK).I'm very happy with my new Armstrong gear but ease of selling on was also a consideration ..Armstrongs longer cycle for upgrades helps a lot. Brands that upgrade the spec every year make it harder to move kit on after a couple of seasons.

If newest is best, then new Cabrinha foils (in collaboration with Mikeslab!) coming later this year.

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..
Do you use the 780 as a daily driver? I always feel like smaller than the 880 I might be struggling putting together a full run in Perth, but that could be user error to some degree.

93kg and must be over 100kgs easy in the 6mm winter suit plus impact etc the HA980 has become my daily driver and often it feels a little too big. So what Eppo says about HAv2 go smaller than you think you need is spot on.
But again the DW755 is a little insane next to the 980, when its up and running it feels as big as the 980, just takes a bit more speed and effort to get it to fly and puts the twitch back in the flow!

Fanboy out...

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Jeroensurf said..
If you need to swapp almost everything, the new KT stuff is something to considder.It's significantly less expensive and what I hear back from mates who have a lot of experience with both is that they sail pretty much the same.
Everyone thought the Carbon KT mast was stiffer and felt better than the Performance mast.

(I,m fully into AFS and really happy with it, but if my garage with gear burns down, I would probably go the KT route just because the pretty neat prices).

if you see my answer to the other thread on this i agree. AFS and KT were the stand outs this summer to me. Axis fireball is also damn fine. That being said i had a quick go on a unifoil 155 evolution in the surf yesterday on someone's DW Sup board mind you (as the guy wanted to try my ML armie 45) and that is a super easy and intuitive front foil. Nice glide and pump and links super well. So many good options. Then i got back on my 780 HA with the 140 tail and had a blast as well.

and on the KT - mate was out on his 790 yesterday - damn it looked so good I declined the offer to try it - especially as people have said they are like a refined armie HA!! Just closed my eyes and said the lord's prayer

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CH3MTR4IL5 said..

eppo said..
For DW / proning the performance mast is a must - massive change. I will still on the 725/925/1125 when i changed to the PM which really highlighted the difference. Eaxh brand has its cons and pros to be honest. the HA is a good allrounder we prone, sup, wing and DW them. For DW they are particularly good for surf style carving, could do with some more glide at times but tails can help with that. Also you can ride a much smaller size than you'd ever think. You should try the 780 at a bare minimum. Very noticeable my better roll, carve and speed.

As far as sloppy connections - i challenge most to how many hours we have spent on the water last two years infact i racked up so far 1589km just for DW this summer - never had connection issues. I do think there are better connection systems out there (i do like say the AFS system) but it works well enough. I also know there are other tails and front wings in the pipeline.

Best to try other brands and see - but you can't compare them using the older A plus mast though - that's not a levelling playing field.

Do you use the 780 as a daily driver? I always feel like smaller than the 880 I might be struggling putting together a full run in Perth, but that could be user error to some degree.

For prone yes. For DW it SHOULD be my daily driver but being only my first season for DW i pussy out a lot and use the 880 - because it's so easy to use now. It's good having both to be honest - can mix match with tails and really hone in on the conditions.

Honestly mate if you are on the A plus mast I'm sorry you aren't riding Armstrong gear yet lol. Nor can you compare with other brands. There is a significant difference in stiffness but also glide. If you don't notice it now you will eventually and you will def notice it with larger span wings.

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AUS220 said..

FarNorthSurfer said..
I was thinking along the same lines a few months ago and was on HA1125 and HA925 as well as MAs and HS. Had not actually tried the HAv2. Managed to get a rental of the AFS UHM Mast and Enduro 900 set up while I was on Fuerteventura and had a really good wing wave day on it. Almost pulled the trigger but it was going to be a lot of money to move to AFS so held off.
Then found a second hand HA980 on eBay so gave it a go and am very pleased with it, not a massive difference in performance to the Enduro900 and a much cheaper option. Now looking for the HA780 and maybe 1180 for a set.
I also found a DW775 on eBay and bought that, wow, that foil is something else and am looking forward to finding some DW swell on it this summer. It's noticably harder to get the best out of it than the HAv2 though, more like the HAv1 in character.
I'm on the 795 HP mast and for sure it makes all of the Armstrong foils perform better, you can feel the foil under your feet much better than the old A+ mast and its much more reliable in white water or transitions.
As a brand on here Armstrong gets more than its fair share of flak for one thing or another, often from riders who have limited experience on the foils. Not sure why that is. It's common to see 'Armstrong Fanboy' used in a obvious disparaging way or that the foil has too many bolts or 'loads' of play. I have thousands of hours on my kit now and have only just replaced my 60cm fuselage for wear.
There is a huge range of front wings to choose from and all fit on the same system so you can try out secondhand stuff relatively cheaply. If it has play in the front wing to fuse its usually because its old, worn an little and hasnt been tightened up properly since new. If you put it together properly it takes a very long time to wear out.
If you can, try and get a demo of the HP mast and if the HAv2 is feeling a bit pedestrian maybe try the DW755 on it before spending a fortune on another brand often with less choice of wings and stabs.
I have found the HAv2 to be so easy to use that it lacks excitement compared to the HAv1 but for sure its a great foil.

average Armstrong fanboy response

So if someone promotes their experience on code, F one etc etc this is a fan boy response? AfS riders must really be fan boying out this summer then - hottest ticket in town. Contribute.

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eppo said..

AUS220 said..

FarNorthSurfer said..
I was thinking along the same lines a few months ago and was on HA1125 and HA925 as well as MAs and HS. Had not actually tried the HAv2. Managed to get a rental of the AFS UHM Mast and Enduro 900 set up while I was on Fuerteventura and had a really good wing wave day on it. Almost pulled the trigger but it was going to be a lot of money to move to AFS so held off.
Then found a second hand HA980 on eBay so gave it a go and am very pleased with it, not a massive difference in performance to the Enduro900 and a much cheaper option. Now looking for the HA780 and maybe 1180 for a set.
I also found a DW775 on eBay and bought that, wow, that foil is something else and am looking forward to finding some DW swell on it this summer. It's noticably harder to get the best out of it than the HAv2 though, more like the HAv1 in character.
I'm on the 795 HP mast and for sure it makes all of the Armstrong foils perform better, you can feel the foil under your feet much better than the old A+ mast and its much more reliable in white water or transitions.
As a brand on here Armstrong gets more than its fair share of flak for one thing or another, often from riders who have limited experience on the foils. Not sure why that is. It's common to see 'Armstrong Fanboy' used in a obvious disparaging way or that the foil has too many bolts or 'loads' of play. I have thousands of hours on my kit now and have only just replaced my 60cm fuselage for wear.
There is a huge range of front wings to choose from and all fit on the same system so you can try out secondhand stuff relatively cheaply. If it has play in the front wing to fuse its usually because its old, worn an little and hasnt been tightened up properly since new. If you put it together properly it takes a very long time to wear out.
If you can, try and get a demo of the HP mast and if the HAv2 is feeling a bit pedestrian maybe try the DW755 on it before spending a fortune on another brand often with less choice of wings and stabs.
I have found the HAv2 to be so easy to use that it lacks excitement compared to the HAv1 but for sure its a great foil.

average Armstrong fanboy response

So if someone promotes their experience on code, F one etc etc this is a fan boy response? AfS riders must really be fan boying out this summer then - hottest ticket in town. Contribute.

Foils from all brands are pretty good now (and they clearly take inspiration from each other, ha ha). What really sets them apart are connection systems (some are stiffer, some are more reliable, some are both) and availability.

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eppo said..

Honestly mate if you are on the A plus mast I'm sorry you aren't riding Armstrong gear yet lol. Nor can you compare with other brands. There is a significant difference in stiffness but also glide. If you don't notice it now you will eventually and you will def notice it with larger span wings.

Yeah i think all things considered for the cost of transition I reckon I'll be getting the shorter performance mast and the 120 tail and then a smaller HA down the track. The devil you know...

Its a hard choice hey as the commitment cost is so big...

Easy to get caught up in the HYPE, I have ridden Axis, Armstrong, back to axis then back to armstrong, tried Code, AFS, F-One, Uni and I'm still sticking with Armstrong !!

SIMPLES Enjoy what you have.

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Wingman WA said..
Easy to get caught up in the HYPE, I have ridden Axis, Armstrong, back to axis then back to armstrong, tried Code, AFS, F-One, Uni and I'm still sticking with Armstrong !!

SIMPLES Enjoy what you have.

That's exactly what I needed to hear!

I have also tried Code and went back to Armstrong.
They're all very similar with their strengths and weaknesses, but at the end of the day Armstrong is still very good.

The Performance Mast isn't only about stiffness - it has a different foil section and does not ventilate as easily as the A+