www.severneshop.com

Nice.

4 batten S1?
That must've been that proto ben S was using in some videos.
I'm guessing they're discontinuing the swat and combining it with the S1 for the 2013 S1

No, pretty sure the swat is still available but remains the same sail.

....any description of the key changes?

More importantly any rumors on prices? Up, Down or roughly the same?

That's all i know.

Gawd more 4 batten stuff

More about trends than what suits the average sailor.

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Mark _australia said...

Gawd more 4 batten stuff

More about trends than what suits the average sailor.

Blade still looks 5 batten to me and it's their 'power sail'? The S1 was 5 batten, it's now 4, I honestly don't believe Severne would have done this if it wasn't an overall improvement.

Got to love the red thumbs!

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CJW said...

Mark _australia said...

Gawd more 4 batten stuff

More about trends than what suits the average sailor.

Blade still looks 5 batten to me and it's their 'power sail'? The S1 was 5 batten, it's now 4, I honestly don't believe Severne would have done this if it wasn't an overall improvement.

Hope they aren't chasing weight to make the world's lightest production sail for the sake of the world's lightest production sail, rather than chasing the world's best all round sail for people like me (like the S1 used to be).

Nothing wrong with 4 battens in principal I wouldn't have thought. And nothing new about 4 battens either. I found a picture of myself from 1991 on a Hot Sails Maui Grid-lock (or something) with 4 battens. Argh memories, back in those days ......

wow!! never thought they would be Red!!

CJW you firmly believe the 4 batten will be more stable OR softer feeling for the same stability, as previously?

Let's go back to sails with 2 battens of 3/4 length. Or, geez my old Stuart Bell sails had an asymmetric pocket thing so it was like a full batten on one tack and softer luff on the other. Maybe that will be 2015? Everything old is new again.....

C'mon peeps we all know Severne makes fkn awesome sails, but you can't tell me after the Fly (disaster) followed by Fly2 (slightly less of a disaster but still not as well liked as others) then suddenly Naish have a 4 batten wave sail, then that North (Hero?) thing, then NP Wizard etc that this is not just trendy for the sake of it?
Manufactuers have constantly gone away from 4 batten wave sails between about 2006 - 2010 due to low sales, then suddenly they are "in" again



Given that average people need wind range (ie: stable foil), then 4 batten wave sails are not as practical as 5, unless you sail cross off perfect consistent wind a lot, or only use small sizes.

I think it will harm S1 sales, but those users may go to the Blade to stay with Severne.


EDIT: dunno why Scotty Mac got a red thumb fpr bringing a new release to our attention. If this isn't the place, where is

have to agree, im much less likely to buy a 2013 S1 now if its only in a 4 batten, as im not convinced its so "useful" ie lower range, less rigid, better for small sails or light people? i recall the Boardseeker article on 4 batten sails (with designer input) said as much??

However, i get the ***impression*** each year the Blade is getting more refined and more like the older S1 anyhow...i mean the gap is less....lighter, less about pure power, much more allround...for down the line as well as onshore mush??

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Mark _australia said...

CJW you firmly believe the 4 batten will be more stable OR softer feeling for the same stability, as previously?

Given that average people need wind range (ie: stable foil), then 4 batten wave sails are not as practical as 5, unless you sail cross off perfect consistent wind a lot, or only use small sizes.

I think it will harm S1 sales, but those users may go to the Blade to stay with Severne.

I think with the current state of windsurfing tech, it is perfectly doable to build sails up to maybe 6m with only 4-battens without significantly sacrificing performance. Anything below 5m, I don't think 5 battens is necessary at all.

Considering that Severne already have a 4-batten wave sail in the SWAT, it doesn't make sense to me that they would intentionally make the S-1 a worse sail just for another 4-batten sail. I'm sticking with S-1's above 5m, and SWATs below.

Either way there are plenty of brands building them, and whilst some of the initial first generation sails were duds.. there are definately good 4 batten sails out there.

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HAIL said...

wow!! never thought they would be Red!!

There is blue.

Ya reckon the world needs more euro lolly-pop colored sails Hail?

Mark you got no idea about sails if you think the fly2 is a disaster, best wave sail I have ever used!

Its interesting that the S1 and the Blade fundamentally differ on sailing styles / rider feel / geometry. Its quite a signifigant difference in feel.

However i reckon as a brand this message probably hasnt got through to the market as well as it could have

The S1 has a higher centre of effort for more lift out of the lip - so this lends itself very much to new school progressive wave riding where tricks out of the lip are the goal. The tighter , more engaged leech gives instant and direct rotation when moves are initiated. Very much reflecting the way Ben likes to Sail.

Perhaps a little bit freestyley.

The S1 a concept sail and really is never expected to sell in anything like the volume that the Blade sells. But for new school sailors who havent tried one - especially with all the correct hardware components - prepare to have your mind Blown!



This new school high lift and instant rotation / move initiation comes at the expense of a tiny bit of wind range compared to the Blade. However when i have been out on the Blade and Ben is on same size S1 - he still seems to handle the windy stuff pretty well.

The Blade has a lower centre of effort for more low down power delivery - this is awesome for rail driven turns - basically classic wave slaying.

Scott Mckercher is an awesome example of this style of sailing.

And guess what - the Blade is PROBABLY what 80% of the Market probably should be riding because i dont see many riders trying goitres and takas -most of us are just trying to do the best reo and link up turns we can with the limited skills (compared to Jaeger Stone, Dany Bruch, Phillip Koster, Brawzinho) that most real world sailors have.

The Blade is an incredibly refined product with excellent low end power and feel - along with Fantastic top end control. Consistently gets good reviews and feedback from demos / back to back comparisons. Getting the Blades into the hands of riders has been a key factor in why there are so many red sails on the water around Australia right now - the simply feel amazing. I dont expect you to take my word for it though - go try one.

Many shops around OZ have demos available.

The 4 batten Swat was back to back tested with some other brands 4 batten offerings by a group of talented sailors on the east coast last summer - as i recall a large order of Swats was placed the next day. The Swats feel great but really are a super value for money price point sail. The Swats were so good in light feel that i suspect they funnelled some benefit into the S1 design brief.

Interestingly i saw a VERY high profile wave sailor at the Severne loft last summer having his sail repaired after getting steamrolled at Margs.

- lets call him Killip Foster -

with a VERY interesting expression on his face after his sail was weighed on the scales and compared to the same size Blade - his hardware was also weighed and compared to a RDM wave Grenade carbon extension / Enigma boom/red line mast

The difference could be measured in multiples of kilograms - much of it made up by sticky back cloth in place for graphic / aesthetic purposes...

The guy frickin rips though!

Whooo hoo, was hoping they would go with 4 battens, love my S1s but being a relative light weight at 70kg I always though 5 battens were overkill for the smaller sizes.

Tried a 2012 4 batten 5.2m Swat last summer and nearly switched, really liked the softer feel compared to the S1's which can be a bit twitchy.

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Mark _australia said...

Gawd more 4 batten stuff

More about trends than what suits the average sailor.

Yep, gotta be cautious of those trends... like short wide boards, multi fins, camber inducers, carbon booms etc etc.

Aus 301 haha really hope your being sarcastic. Gold

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aus301 said...

Mark _australia said...

Gawd more 4 batten stuff

More about trends than what suits the average sailor.

Yep, gotta be cautious of those trends... like short wide boards, multi fins, camber inducers, carbon booms etc etc.

Yes good point with a couple of those - but you are forgetting when boards got too short as they all copied each other - and then they came back again to a "short but not too short" sort of area.
Or when the wide point of waveboards moved back and back and back until it was just crap - now it is right up forward again.
Or that thrusters were all the rage in about 1995 ish then they went away but as soon as one multifin board was made a few years back they all copied each other, and in the first year or two of multifins they really didn't work well at all. (In the mean time Stone made awesome thrusters the whole time - if he was a big euro manufacturer they'd all have been copying him)

Yes I am being pessimistic, but when one mob brings out a 4 batten wavesail and proclaims it to be the shazzizle and all of a sudden the others do too it kinda looks bad.
Like Northy says - boardseeker didn't rate 4 battens as a sail for the masses - rather more a niche market.
Like reflex says above it is maybe for 20% of the market.
Maybe why I saw a LOT of Blades on the beach but not many Swats
Maybe why we see a sh!tload of Zones and Combats on the beach but not many Flys

etc

Not dissing the product, Severne is awesome - just saying I believe it is a market trend and people need to think about what suits them, not just buy it cos it is new and shiny

Mr Reflex is right, i have tried a few 3 batten sails over the years, probally the best feeling one i tried was the swat followed by the North last years cant remember the name. I am old school and tend to set up my gear best for wave riding. I find the blade and 5 batten sails feel best for this, plenty of juice off the bottom in prep to a big hack or what ever. Not plans for grand aerial manouvers, leavin it for young bones...
Rekon the short luff length sails can feel a little gutless off the bottom, especially the smaller sizes. So its blades for me.

Just because a certain design didn't work previously doesn't mean it won't work now, technology improves which makes previously crappy concepts highly workable upon re-visitation. The push for 4 batten wave sails has really been brought about by the style of moves they are pulling off in the surf these days which benefit from low swing weight and soft feeling sails; almost all brands now have a 4 batten wave sail in the lineup. As Reflex says they tend to have more lift and a higher CoF than 5 batten sails I notice this with SWAT vs the S1.

The only real disadvantage of a 4 batten sail in my opinion is top end stability but with each year this is getting less and less of an issue. I have 2011, 2112 SWATs and 2012 S1. Now the 2011 SWATs have amazing low end but their top end stability is pretty bad, the 2012 SWAT was a MASSIVE improvement to the point where it wasn't really an issue; not S1 stability but close. I've also sailed a Fly2 and it was also a nice sail, although heavy; I agree with you the Fly1 always looked like a bucket of ****.

I admit that once you get to a certain size, probably > 5.6m 5 battens is a must as the panel size just gets a bit too big...but if you think about it logically the 'batten to sail area ratio' of a 4.7 with 4 battens is similar to say a 6.0 with 5 battens. Makes sense then eh.

I think we might all be sort of agreeing with each other and disagreeing at the same time - so each to his own.

Your point about a 4x batten 4.7 being the same as a 5x batten 6.0 (as far as panel support is concerned) is valid, never thought of it like that.

OTOH that means reduced wind range and for the average punter he'd rather have 4 or 5 wave sails, than have 5 or 6.
But that takes me back to the sails being built for flyweight 19y/o pro's in Hawaii and Gnaraloo argument that I whined about with Naish calling a 5.7 an "XL" so I'll shut up now

What technologies have changed in sails in the past ten years? Have I missed something? I have seen designs change slightly to suit board changes and more progressive moves but I haven't seen technology in wave sails change in the slightest. I think these 4 batten sails are now working due to board changes and ongoing refinements to get the tension and profile balanced.

no changes in sail technology in the last 10 years...

A 10 year old sail and a good example of today's sail feel vastly different to me.
Start with the reduced weight , then consider the vastly increased strength of todays product -

does the introduction of RDM masts to rid us of the mast breakfest that was wavesailing pre 2002 count ? It took 5 years of getting the word out to get the market to come around to rdm masts totally. So in 2006 the market was receiving the benefit of what we knew in 2001 - think of all the lost years...

Try selling an sdm wave mast today


Or the fact that you can now have that sort of durability today but in a 1.4 kg mast instead of a 2kg one? At a price that -adjusted for inflation- is cheaper.

Do new materials come under technology?
Or new and clever ways of creating wings with more stability at less weight and tons more durable than the 10 year old design?
Refining techniques of interacting with mast tensions to create shape - trickle down shaping lessons learned from race sail advances?
Or refined shaping techniques that dont require mast tension when its not desired?

Or techniques of constructing sails so that the heavier bits arent where the swing motion of the sail is -resulting in much more sail handlie-ability through radical movements ?


Or does technology just refer to producing sails using humans with sewing machines - and rigging them using downhaul and outhaul ? - in which case the game is very similar i suppose. Maybe its all semantics - but i know that windsurfing is easier, more fun and rangier today than it was 10 years ago. And look at the performance level increase from the top stars in the sport - its gone nuts!

Not so much about sails but in regards to changes my prediction is that in about 2 years Quads will be largely replaced by thrusters. From what most people who are great sailors have told me they find the additional range they get out of thursters vs quads make up the slight reduction in performance.

Don't agree about quads to be repalced by thrusters. You need to understand how quads work and vs how a thruster does, its more than just an extra fin. Grab a 5 fin boxed surfboard and play with fin set ups and you can see the total difference in feeling. Different set ups work in different conditions. I rekon the choice is great so it woukd be a big step backwards to only have one choice of fin set up. Quads here to stay in the surfing world so I cant see it changing for windsurfing. Me personally, id never buy a thruster windsurfer but would buy twin or quad.

Reflex, I guess my question was referring to actual changes in materials rather than how they are utilised. I totally agree that designs have changed but if you took a current design and used the materials available ten years ago you could make exactly the same product. Masts may be lighter but RDM's have been around and readily available since before 2000.

Yes - i figured it was a matter of definition

But how much would that product weigh and would it stand up to wavesailing pressures like the rigs of today - which just pop up time after time on massive wipeouts

Its gotten to the point where i expect to see my sail pop up from the mast high wave that just smashed it.

10 years ago you would expect to be derigging and swimming in

Many of the materials used nowadays make x ply and monofilm look pretty old school (these laminate materials like E5 and E3 are a lot more expensive too)

RDMs werent any good till 2001 or so - i remember seeing them back in 93- however the fibrepsars simply put people off due to their snappage rate.

Then Powerex and No Limits came along and did it right. And we all started spending a lot less money on masts

Let's have a look to some real pics of the new toys.

A FREEK!!!

Here is the Blade, noice blueish color

The S1, looks quite different from the previous years to me, but I've never owned one of these light sails.