Not sure how it works but if a batch of masts were sub standard the only way they can prove this is if they break, can a sail company send back masts that haven't been used on the presumption that they are faulty? or do they just send them all out to the shops and replace them as they break?

how about testig them before they leave the factory

Select to expand quote

stringer said...

how about testig them before they leave the factory

I guess then they would be used masts...also the testing would add to the cost of the mast.

Select to expand quote

legless said...

stringer said...

how about testig them before they leave the factory

I guess then they would be used masts...also the testing would add to the cost of the mast.

What! - with this sort of logic I suppose no one ever buys a brand new car because it's been started in the factory. I don't believe the cost of testing each mast would incur a substantial increase in price (and testing wouldn't mean someone rigging it up and sailing the thing)

It's commendable that Severne put that post up but from what Choc was alluding to, (and I hope this isn't true but) I heard through the grapevine that Severne knew the masts where dodgy but they had to sell them so they could get them warrantied under their agreement with the manufacturer. Hate to think of the consequences if someone was put in serious danger, injured or even died because of this.

The 2012 Enigma Mast Series has been developed in tandem with the REFLEX program. This is the highest performing standard mast built as a premium line with precision manufacture for race and freeride. Every mast will be electronically tested ensuring the bend curve and hand crafted quality meets the standard set by the Severne Hardware Division.

? Integrated UV resin technology
? Acute Angle Carbon Wrap
? Unidirectional High Quality Carbon Pre-preg with 25% extra elongation to the fibres
? Individually tested and certified by our craftsmen
? Matt finish for smooth rigging and de-rigging

What is tested? if the top and bottom fit together... Batch testing is going to quarantine a run before they are released to the public...but to state that they are actually individually tested and certified, something must be pretty wrong in the QA dept!

http://www.severnesails.com/2012/products/mast.php#enigma

Select to expand quote

sausage said...

legless said...

stringer said...

how about testig them before they leave the factory

I guess then they would be used masts...also the testing would add to the cost of the mast.

What! - with this sort of logic I suppose no one ever buys a brand new car because it's been started in the factory. I don't believe the cost of testing each mast would incur a substantial increase in price (and testing wouldn't mean someone rigging it up and sailing the thing)

They do not test crash every new car that comes of the production line....why because it would then be a used and dented car that would not sell. Actually if each individual mast is bent as it comes of the production line it would take time and time costs because you would have to pay someone to do that. I have heard some mast makers do test all their masts but I am sure that test is not a catch all process...maybe the best approach is the Hot Sails Maui mast warranty:

Hot sails Maui offer a 90 day from purchase unlimited guarantee on all our masts. Once the 90 days is exceeded the customer will have the option to purchase replacement parts (top half or bottom half) at 50% discount for as long as Hot Sails Maui make that model of mast.

If your mast is going to break due to manufacturing fault it will do so in the first few months of use. Then if it breaks after that it will only cost you 50% of the cost of the top or bottom which ever broke.

I guess Lamborghini did not test this car when it came off the production line...maybe they were getting their carbon bits from the same factory in Italy severne is using for it's masts!!

Lamborghini bursts into flames during test drive
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8451867/lamborghini-bursts-into-fire-during-test-drive

Select to expand quote

Kimba said...

The 2012 Enigma Mast Series has been developed in tandem with the REFLEX program. This is the highest performing standard mast built as a premium line with precision manufacture for race and freeride. Every mast will be electronically tested ensuring the bend curve and hand crafted quality meets the standard set by the Severne Hardware Division.

? Integrated UV resin technology
? Acute Angle Carbon Wrap
? Unidirectional High Quality Carbon Pre-preg with 25% extra elongation to the fibres
? Individually tested and certified by our craftsmen
? Matt finish for smooth rigging and de-rigging

What is tested? if the top and bottom fit together... Batch testing is going to quarantine a run before they are released to the public...but to state that they are actually individually tested and certified, something must be pretty wrong in the QA dept!

http://www.severnesails.com/2012/products/mast.php#enigma

Well hi-lighted Tim.

One thing that really sticks out for me is the use of the term "handcrafted quality" and "craftsmen" as part of a marketing spiel. For me, anyway, it doesn't instill much confidence to think an object that requires such a high level of machining and precision is somehow superior because it's handcrafted quality is checked by craftsmen. I want my masts bend curve tested and rated and consistant wall thickness verified by mechanical means.

(I know it is sometimes better to bite one's tongue but) Legless, and please don't take this personally but as the HSM dealer in Aus, as you feel the need to promote your product every time you post could you qualify your vested interest. I do like the idea though that they offer you 50% off the cost of the broken half. That's not too bad a deal although what caveats come with that?

PS - hi wind catapulting a mast and breaking it is the equivalent of crash testing a car. Neither are meant to work very well afterwards

Select to expand quote

Kimba said...
• Individually tested and certified by our craftsmen

What is tested? if the top and bottom fit together...

When Ben came around and did his little tour of the shops they mentioned this...

I think people need to realise that testing the bend curve, doesn't equal rig the mast on a sail at full race spec tension, and take it for a test sail. More likely they have a little test rig which will probably only bend the mast just enough to confirm that the bend curve is correct.

Select to expand quote

legless said...
I have heard some mast makers do test all their masts but I am sure that test is not a catch all process...maybe the best approach is the Hot Sails Maui mast warranty:

Hot sails Maui offer a 90 day from purchase unlimited guarantee on all our masts. Once the 90 days is exceeded the customer will have the option to purchase replacement parts (top half or bottom half) at 50% discount for as long as Hot Sails Maui make that model of mast.

90 days seems a bit short if you ask me. A lot of sailers probably would only use a mast a handful of times in that period. I thought 1 year was fairly standard for this kinda thing?

Select to expand quote

swoosh said...

Kimba said...
• Individually tested and certified by our craftsmen


90 days seems a bit short if you ask me. A lot of sailers probably would only use a mast a handful of times in that period. I thought 1 year was fairly standard for this kinda thing?

It is a a unlimited warranty. i am not aware of any other mast brand that offers an unlimited warranty it is usually just am manufacturing fault warranty. so 90 days is pretty good.

I agree swoosh 90days wouldnt be much good for my smaller sizes, im lucky to use my 400 3 times a year here in Qld.

Select to expand quote

sausage said...

Kimba said...

The 2012 Enigma Mast Series has been developed in tandem with the REFLEX program. This is the highest performing standard mast built as a premium line with precision manufacture for race and freeride. Every mast will be electronically tested ensuring the bend curve and hand crafted quality meets the standard set by the Severne Hardware Division.

? Integrated UV resin technology
? Acute Angle Carbon Wrap
? Unidirectional High Quality Carbon Pre-preg with 25% extra elongation to the fibres
? Individually tested and certified by our craftsmen
? Matt finish for smooth rigging and de-rigging

What is tested? if the top and bottom fit together... Batch testing is going to quarantine a run before they are released to the public...but to state that they are actually individually tested and certified, something must be pretty wrong in the QA dept!

http://www.severnesails.com/2012/products/mast.php#enigma

Well hi-lighted Tim.

One thing that really sticks out for me is the use of the term "handcrafted quality" and "craftsmen" as part of a marketing spiel. For me, anyway, it doesn't instill much confidence to think an object that requires such a high level of machining and precision is somehow superior because it's handcrafted quality is checked by craftsmen. I want my masts bend curve tested and rated and consistant wall thickness verified by mechanical means.

(I know it is sometimes better to bite one's tongue but) Legless, and please don't take this personally but as the HSM dealer in Aus, as you feel the need to promote your product every time you post could you qualify your vested interest. I do like the idea though that they offer you 50% of the cost of the broken half. That's not too bad a deal although what caveats come with that?

PS - hi wind catapulting a mast and breaking it is the equivalent of crash testing a car. Neither are meant to work very well afterwards

Nah snags no one here unintentionally promotes gear I see the Nth Korean "Exocet" missle nearly landed on a "Loft full of Sails"

These shonky Italian factories eh........
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/550000-ferrari-recalled-for-fire-risk-20100902-14o6v.html

There can't be much wind back there for this thread to be scratching it's way along.
Conspiracy theories aside, Sxxt happens. Having dealt with some of the mast problems myself, Severne did the right thing.
Have we heard any complaints from the 'victims'? I haven't.


My, the lagoon looks good at this time of day.. especially with a cold Boags.

Cheers.
Jez

NORTH has a 2 year warranty !!

Select to expand quote

legless said...

swoosh said...

Kimba said...
• Individually tested and certified by our craftsmen


90 days seems a bit short if you ask me. A lot of sailers probably would only use a mast a handful of times in that period. I thought 1 year was fairly standard for this kinda thing?

It is a a unlimited warranty. i am not aware of any other mast brand that offers an unlimited warranty it is usually just am manufacturing fault warranty. so 90 days is pretty good.

Select to expand quote

AUS4 said...

NORTH has a 2 year warranty !!

legless said...

What people seem to be missing is it is not the length of the warranty that matters but what the warranty covers. Will North replace a mast you have used for 1 year an six months if you have a wipe out and your mast snaps?

The point of the Hot Sails Maui Warranty is you are covered for 3 months if your mast breaks for any reason (unlimited) which would cover any manufacturing faults and any unfortunate wipe outs. Then after that if it snaps you only have to pay 50% of the cost of replacing the top or bottom. A manufacturer saying you have a 2 year manufacturing warranty means nothing if the mast breaks for reasons other than a manufacturing fault and in most cases you would have to prove it was a manufacturing fault. After the mast has been used for a few months it is going to be hard to prove it was a manufacturing fault,

Hey Magnus Italy also make the Fiat Panda lol. On the mast issue I had a RSR evo 1 which i ran on a 08 X6 for over 3 years with no issues and the second time i used it in a RSS mk 4 it broke. Then I became aware of others suffering the same fate and decided to get rid of the sail. Am now using Reflex 2s and 3s with the blueline and am very happy with performance. Just to add I thought the RSR evo I had was a brilliant sail and loved it, but find the reflex even better.

Anybody else had issues with using an x6 mast in a RSS MKiv?
I've just bought a new 430 x6 (not the latest x65) to use in a 7m mk iv and am feeling nervous about even trying it after reading this thread!! Also have a 400 x65 that I'm using in 6.2 mk iv and 5.5 mk iii.

Select to expand quote

legless said...

AUS4 said...

NORTH has a 2 year warranty !!

legless said...

What people seem to be missing is it is not the length of the warranty that matters but what the warranty covers. Will North replace a mast you have used for 1 year an six months if you have a wipe out and your mast snaps?

The point of the Hot Sails Maui Warranty is you are covered for 3 months if your mast breaks for any reason (unlimited) which would cover any manufacturing faults and any unfortunate wipe outs. Then after that if it snaps you only have to pay 50% of the cost of replacing the top or bottom. A manufacturer saying you have a 2 year manufacturing warranty means nothing if the mast breaks for reasons other than a manufacturing fault and in most cases you would have to prove it was a manufacturing fault. After the mast has been used for a few months it is going to be hard to prove it was a manufacturing fault,

Legless, Severne/Ben in his post stated "RDM Gorillas (2 year unconditional warranty)". Personally I think I'd rather this deal over only 3 months then 50% off, but I do like the idea that HSM offer that reduced cost for ever (whilst the mast is manufactured).

As always though, we are guided by mast/sail manufacturers and their advice on which ones work with each other.

What I have yet to decide is - do I buy a mast that won't be brilliant on the sails I use, but at least I have, for example, a 2 year unconditional warranty? Or, do I buy a quiver of Swats and two RDM Gorillas?

Select to expand quote

rww said...

Anybody else had issues with using an x6 mast in a RSS MKiv?
I've just bought a new 430 x6 (not the latest x65) to use in a 7m mk iv and am feeling nervous about even trying it after reading this thread!! Also have a 400 x65 that I'm using in 6.2 mk iv and 5.5 mk iii.

There's a thread on the SB forum regarding this issue http://www.star-board.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15373

I know dr Cam snapped a brand new X65 the other day with his NP RSR evoII 7.8 - not a happy camper.

Select to expand quote

rww said...

Anybody else had issues with using an x6 mast in a RSS MKiv?
I've just bought a new 430 x6 (not the latest x65) to use in a 7m mk iv and am feeling nervous about even trying it after reading this thread!! Also have a 400 x65 that I'm using in 6.2 mk iv and 5.5 mk iii.

got 6.2/7.0/7.8/8.6 rss mkiv for two seasons all on x6 masts no issues so far
i weigh 116 kg

Used MKIV's, never had any mast issues with them

Select to expand quote

ggf said...

rww said...

Anybody else had issues with using an x6 mast in a RSS MKiv?
I've just bought a new 430 x6 (not the latest x65) to use in a 7m mk iv and am feeling nervous about even trying it after reading this thread!! Also have a 400 x65 that I'm using in 6.2 mk iv and 5.5 mk iii.

got 6.2/7.0/7.8/8.6 rss mkiv for two seasons all on x6 masts no issues so far
i weigh 116 kg

Thanks all.

ggf and elmo... you've made me feel much better. I'm only just over half your weight ggf!!

has anyone had the problem with skinny mast, when the sleeve of the top section starts to crack length ways up the mast been having a few issues with some of my north masts, would cutting it back be alright??

Select to expand quote

jsnfok said...

has anyone had the problem with skinny mast, when the sleeve of the top section starts to crack length ways up the mast been having a few issues with some of my north masts, would cutting it back be alright??

Cut it back too much and it won't go all the way in anymore

Yea, true, but 20mm should be fine

dont cut it rap some glass around the out side it was probably caused from not being all the way together when rigging and put some tape on the join so when you rig you wont have that problem a lot of people have busted mast by that cause because we are all in a hurry 2 get out there !

Select to expand quote

jsnfok said...

has anyone had the problem with skinny mast, when the sleeve of the top section starts to crack length ways up the mast been having a few issues with some of my north masts, would cutting it back be alright??

I've cut an old fibreglass mast that cracked because I used an extension for a smaller dia mast. I cut it back to where I thought the crack ended, but the next time I rigged it on the correct dia extension it split again.
moral of the story, it's very hard to tell where the crack finishes!

I'd go with the fibre glass wrap as long as it isn't near a camber inducer.

And I agree with Stroppo, it's easy to have a gap at the join go unnoticed unless you really check for it. Downhaul doesn't close the gap, because of the bending tension. This will lead to the top section cracking.
Taping the join stops this as well as joint sticking due to sand/grit getting in.

I bought a new Neil Pryde H2 6.7 and Neil Pryde 4.3 mast which broke on my first outing, then the replacement broke on my first gybe with it on Narrabeen lake! Doesn't fill me with confidence and they both broke 200m over the join.

Select to expand quote

Eel said...

I bought a new Neil Pryde H2 6.7 and Neil Pryde 4.3 mast which broke on my first outing, then the replacement broke on my first gybe with it on Narrabeen lake! Doesn't fill me with confidence and they both broke 200m over the join.

I've noticed that if it breaks it's on the first outing