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kato said..
>>>>>> 3 kg of water takes up a lot of room in your wet suit or backpack. Lead is much more compact. Sadly John passed away 5yrs ago from the flu

Well if you want to stay buoyancy neutral, the extra flotation need will be just as bulky.
I'm with Dan here being an old light weight, I struggle to fly heavy cambered sails any way, I need plenty of positive buoyancy. I wear a 3l camel pack, with a spare bladder for one of it's pockets when I need more.
But I'm not sure I'd want to dump weight to go upwind.

Hi!
As I'm 65kg you could consider me a lightweight. May I add another dimension to your question?

It ain't your weight that's gonna make the difference

It's your technique and determination

For practise makes perfect, I think you already know the difference between a hard worked for 34kts run and an easy 35.
You'd be better off workin on that perfect stance where you keep max thrust, lock your board on the fin and when you sail into that huge gust let your board fly downwind just a little to gain extra speed before you dive down as deep as possible with just your fingertips on boom.

Yes the extra weight does help to keep your board down, but if you carry that weight on your shoulders and your stance is too much over your board it wil only counter-effect by makin you heavier on your rail
Yes I also wear a (divin) belt with up to 7.3kg on the back which leans on or over my harness to keep weight as low as possible. Only worn on spots known where solid ground is near.
But what if I told you that surfin two days in a row on the same spot with equal conditions and gear, surfin without weight gave me a better avg just because I could keep a better stance? Strand Horst in Holland is comparable to Lake George.
On a 50+kts day in summer I also fill up my wetsuit which helps to get a good startin speed, but there's not much fillin up to do in 25cm water.

As balance is key in this sport you can only make that weight work for you if you regain balance.

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noldus said..
Hi!
As I'm 65kg you could consider me a lightweight. May I add another dimension to your question?

It ain't your weight that's gonna make the difference

It's your technique and determination

For practise makes perfect, I think you already know the difference between a hard worked for 34kts run and an easy 35.
You'd be better off workin on that perfect stance where you keep max thrust, lock your board on the fin and when you sail into that huge gust let your board fly downwind just a little to gain extra speed before you dive down as deep as possible with just your fingertips on boom.

Yes the extra weight does help to keep your board down, but if you carry that weight on your shoulders and your stance is too much over your board it wil only counter-effect by makin you heavier on your rail
Yes I also wear a (divin) belt with up to 7.3kg on the back which leans on or over my harness to keep weight as low as possible. Only worn on spots known where solid ground is near.
But what if I told you that surfin two days in a row on the same spot with equal conditions and gear, surfin without weight gave me a better avg just because I could keep a better stance? Strand Horst in Holland is comparable to Lake George.
On a 50+kts day in summer I also fill up my wetsuit which helps to get a good startin speed, but there's not much fillin up to do in 25cm water.

As balance is key in this sport you can only make that weight work for you if you regain balance.

Hi Noldus. Some interesting opinions in what you have written. Personally I would never wear a dive belt of weights around my waist as 1.) it would strain my lower back and hips, and 2.) it would not give me the leverage against the sail force that carrying the same weight around my chest and shoulders would. Note that my weight is in a jacket that FLOATS independently of me so would never go the dive belt, even in shallow water.
Also, when I slingshot to go for my fastest speed, I follow the lead of some of our fastest speedsailors and try to get my rig as upright as possible and thus find I am over the board more than leaning out, which is opposite to what you appear to do.
I agree technique is king.
PS. Am off to Lk George in a month for a couple of weeks. always interesting discussion with the experts down there.

Sorry, should have mentioned my belt has a harness with straps over shoulders makin it easier carryin. It wasn't the location of weights I referred to, just the addin of weight in general. But I do think that weight on the back helps more as on chest (yes the Luderitz sailors wear it both sides, but do you want to compare yourself to those guys at that moment? I mean trainin, preppin, adernaline..), if your interested.

Yes I love discussions or just listenin to pro's chat and askin my questions or throwin in theories. This has brought up the extra weight topic many times with various outcome from different people where they all agree on the biggest problem for lightweights.

Due to your weight you can only gain a certain speed half wind before you start your run. Your so called entry speed.
Even if you keep your sail as upright as possible you can only gain (let's say) 10kts speed from your slingshot. If your sailin behind a dam and reach 30kts halfwind slingshottin would mean a 40kts run, yet 50m from the dam chop is 30cm and all over. If you'd be 2m tall and 100kg you just hold on, but you and I can't. As soon as you're off balance your board starts to dance under your feet and rodeo is on. Yes if you can keep momentum you can fly over chop, until you loose balance by breakin thrust or react to chop. The big boys reach higher entry speed, and because they can keep longer momentum in chop they potentially can reach higher speeds, the same goes for flat water.

A bigger sail does not automatically give you a higher entry speed or a guarantee for a higher speed downwind. This only works if you can translate that extra power in your sail into forward thrust and limited lift.

Because of this you should not copy the big boys' sailin course where they load up their sail halfwind and take a dive.
You're a lightweight, use it. Lake George is perfect to practise to load up your sail, and actually, your fin, bear off, and whilst doin that start loadin up your sail again by pressin your backfoot down a little harder to make your board go upwind a few degrees and just before your fin wants to throw you out you let it rip as deep as you can, for you as a lightweight can go deeper as the heavy boys. In numbers? Where they can bear off 140 you can do 160-170.

When takin on a downwind course you stand over your board yes, but because of the forces playin you need this stance to keep balance.

Do you understand what I mean by sailors "climbin in their boom" when sailin downwind in lightwind conditions? Often sailors move their upper body closer to the boom in heavy conditions (yes, occasionally guilty yet workin on it) for misinterpreted safety or because them gotten used to it for mostly sailin in lightwind. This does give pressure in the wrong places leadin to scary moments, spin out or tailwalk for starters. Even the wider placin of your hands on your boom in heavy conditions is a sign your sail's too big (for you'll lean forward). This is somethin else as bein able to place your hands a little wider on boom and thus makin that perfect triangle between sail, board and yourself when steerin upwind in such an angle that people ask you afterward where your wind came from for your angle of attack was sharper as they could ever point in that wind, but this is again the benefit of bein lightweight. You can load up your sail in less wind and if you can keep pressure by the right stance you'll sail upwind like a statue where the heavy boys can barely plane.

Now I'm off to bed, gybe practise in cold weather tomorrow..

Edit, your board don't know the u umlaut

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noldus said..
Hi!
As I'm 65kg you could consider me a lightweight. May I add another dimension to your question?

It ain't your weight that's gonna make the difference

It's your technique and determination

Of course you have to have the experience and skills to get the very best out of yourself and your equipment.

But half a lifetime of experience, comparison and observations tell me you are completely wrong about weight and size not making a difference. It is well documented and abundantly obvious that all else being equal, a good big'n will go faster than a good small'n every single time. And the mathematics support it.

Of course there are times when us smaller guys will do well in comparison, because we are in the right place at the right time and get our tuning and strategies spot in. But the science principle still applies. In windsurfing, leverage is the ultimate determining factor and big and heavy is ultimately faster.

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sailquik said..

noldus said..
Hi!
As I'm 65kg you could consider me a lightweight. May I add another dimension to your question?

It ain't your weight that's gonna make the difference

It's your technique and determination

Of course you have to have the experience and skills to get the very best out of yourself and your equipment.

But half a lifetime of experience, comparison and observations tell me you are completely wrong about weight and size not making a difference. It is well documented and abundantly obvious that all else being equal, a good big'n will go faster than a good small'n every single time. And the mathematics support it.

Of course there are times when us smaller guys will do well in comparison, because we are in the right place at the right time and get our tuning and strategies spot in. But the science principle still applies. In windsurfing, leverage is the ultimate determining factor and big is ultimately faster.

Totally agree with Andrew. (Can't argue with a lightweight who has done 47kts+ )

I can't edit the above made post, for really, is this the way Australians do discussions or dismiss other theories?

Kinda Laim to only take the part you can bitch about.

Please Andrew, read my post again and react to what is said
I didn't say his weight don't make a difference. Maybe it is written in such words, but as a long time speed sailor you oughtta know I ment the additional weight of his weight vest.

The theory I speak about ain't new, it's actually 10+yrs old, and you Andrew know the man who came with this idea.
I am not here to discuss whom I know or brag about my achievements.

Too bad you hide behind someone else's words Mike.



Edit, But to prove you wrong, please log in on gp3s, find results for strand horst 31-12-21 and tell me why I am day victor with only 65kg surpassin 85-100kg sailors without extra weight? Please don't give the obvious, but do come up with a proper answer?

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noldus said..
I can't edit the above made post, for really, is this the way Australians do discussions or dismiss other theories?

Kinda Laim to only take the part you can bitch about.

Please Andrew, read my post again and react to what is said
I didn't say his weight don't make a difference. Maybe it is written in such words, but as a long time speed sailor you oughtta know I ment the additional weight of his weight vest.

The theory I speak about ain't new, it's actually 10+yrs old, and you Andrew know the man who came with this idea.
I am not here to discuss whom I know or brag about my achievements.

Too bad you hide behind someone else's words Mike.



Edit, But to prove you wrong, please log in on gp3s, find results for strand horst 31-12-21 and tell me why I am day victor with only 65kg surpassin 85-100kg sailors without extra weight? Please don't give the obvious, but do come up with a proper answer?

Yea. Na!

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noldus said..
I can't edit the above made post, for really, is this the way Australians do discussions or dismiss other theories?

Kinda Laim to only take the part you can bitch about.

Please Andrew, read my post again and react to what is said
I didn't say his weight don't make a difference. Maybe it is written in such words, but as a long time speed sailor you oughtta know I ment the additional weight of his weight vest.

The theory I speak about ain't new, it's actually 10+yrs old, and you Andrew know the man who came with this idea.
I am not here to discuss whom I know or brag about my achievements.

Too bad you hide behind someone else's words Mike.



Edit, But to prove you wrong, please log in on gp3s, find results for strand horst 31-12-21 and tell me why I am day victor with only 65kg surpassin 85-100kg sailors without extra weight? Please don't give the obvious, but do come up with a proper answer?

I am sorry if I misinterpreted your argument Arnold. I do feel you may be over reacting.

But if you are saying that adding extra weight will not make someone faster, everything else being equal, than I still think you are wrong, and I think this has been proven many times. Of course, ultimately, with extra weight, you will still have to be tuned and optimised for that weight, and that may not be a simple matter to achieve, but the physics also say it is correct. I have had many excellent discussions with our mutual friend about speed and sailor weight, but I don't remember him saying that lighter (without weight) is definitely faster, just that there may be certain opportunities and advantages in some situations, which i agree with.

So yes. You and I, and other lightweights have had sessions where we went faster than bigger, highly skilled sailors, but this is the exception that just says either we got everything just right that day (and maybe lucked into the best gust), and/or the other guys didn't get their optimum potential.

I dont quite follow your ideas on the 'slingshot' though. perhaps you could elaborate? I am always open to consider ideas on how we can go faster.

Edit. I tried to search GPS-SS by date but can't make it work. is this the session you refer to? gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2021-12-31&team=129

The point I tried makin is that the addin of weight does not by definition make you go faster.

On a fixed course (Sandy Point, Luderitz, Ouddorp) the big and heavy guys will always win

On an open course (Lake George, Strand Horst), you as lightweight have other options






My posts are to help also you Mike, you guys care for an open minded discussion?

Edit, yes it is. www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=373103&uid=22386
And yes, one sailor was late, one had an off day, but the progression I've been makin while workin on this theory makes it worth while to defend it.

And yes, maybe I over reacted a bit, I'm sorry for that

OK Arnold. I read you post again with what you said in mind. I think I see what you are saying is that there is probably more to be gained by advancing your skills and technique to optimise that, than simply by adding extra weight.

In this situation, you are most likely correct, especially of the sailor has not yet achieved their potential though optimising skills, strategies and equipment tuning.

In the case of Mike, he is already a very highly skilled windsurfer and speed sailor with considerable experience over many many years. He has also practiced with some extra weight which is important to learn and adapt to the difference. I would guess that he will indeed benefit for carrying extra weight when the situation warrants it.

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noldus said..
The point I tried makin is that the addin of weight does not by definition make you go faster.

On a fixed course (Sandy Point, Luderitz, Ouddorp) the big and heavy guys will always win

On an open course (Lake George, Strand Horst), you as lightweight have other options

Ah, yes. There is a difference in the types of venues you list fo sure.

Luderitz is a good example. It has a fixed angle and one has no option but to sail that angle. Size and weight matter very much at such a venue.

On a weedy flat water course like LG, there is quite a lot of skill in solved in finding and sailing the ideal angle, as one can sail any angle that you choose. and the optimum angle will vary with the wind and your equipment. Strategy and skill become very much more important to the results.And I would add that being skilled at sailing efficiently upwind also can become a big factor, allowing you to get more runs and more chances to be in the right place when that good gust comes through.

On the Sandy Point course at it's very best, it is a bit simpler, as it is a curved course and one quickly learns the best angle after a couple of runs on that day. It often become a case of how brave and confident you are to keep the power on as the course gets broader and rougher. And on the epic days, the wind comes through in squalls, so timing your runs to coincide with the squalls becomes a big factor. i can remember many days when we had our smaller fast gear waiting on the bank, and when we saw those black clouds coming with a squall we made a move to try to sail back and grab it to be ready for the squall. My favourite saying/truth is that "to go really fast, you have to be in the right place, at the right time, on just the right gear" This is a very important skill right there, and especially applies to Sandy Point and Lake George. I am sure it also applies very much to Strand Horst.

As time has gone by and so many more sailors have tuned their experience, skills and equipment to the places named, the field has levelled a lot, and more often than not, the speed results very closely correlate to sailor size, but not always, and that certainly keeps things interesting.

Exactly, there is much more to be gained by a lightweight by havin not only the right gear properly tuned, but indeed also on the course he or she sails.

The slingshot I speak about
On an open course,
As stated above, as a lightweight you can only build up a certain speed half wind to start your run.
If you then bear off only half the depth you would normally do you gain a lot of speed,
if you then can keep the pressure in your sail and by pressin with your backfoot on your fin to make your board go upwind a few degrees you again start buildin up pressure. You are still on 115-120degrees off wind and then make the same slingshot you would normally do.

From seen in vids Lake George is a dream to work on this theory, for as a lightweight you can take a 54wide board with 5.6 in wind where the big boys need a 7.8/115.

The less bouyancy you need, the smaller you can go
The better you can let your gear fly on your fin the smaller fin you can sail, the less drag you have.

Mike didn't speak as a newbie, and his input about work-outs and sailin with weight disclosed he's quite fanatic.
I therefor hope you as well Mike, are willin to give this a shot because I am not only slowly startin to prove this works by workin my way through the ranks at Strand Horst, also at Herkingen (behind a dam where you need to slingshot) I can bear off deeper and go faster.

Glad to read the heated discussion cools down a little.

If I may I'd like to add a little personal insight.

On an open course I am trying to gain advantage from my lighter weight (in summer 78 kilo). I may be crazy but feel we lighter riders stand a chance without weight because of our lighter weight.

Many times I use 5.6 when the "giants of speed" are using 7.0 or even 7.8. I remember a session beating Vincent Valkenaers by 4 kilometres peakspeed, while he was on 7.0 and I on 5.6. On average 5x10 I just lost 0.1 of a knot if I recall well. I'm an old fart and I love to finetune for my weight and indeed go much deeper while using slignshot techniques heavier riders mostly cannot go for.

At a fixed course like Luderitz....forget it. Same for spots like La Franqui or in Holland Ouddorp. No chance unless you carry 25 kilo like Patrick did. The more laminar a course is, or the more curved a course is, the smaller the differences but weight will always win at equal skill level.

As I am aging my true passion is with open water, free course sailing, battling it out with others on the same spot. When things get truly hairy the fun starts...

It's clear to me in those conditions all stand an equal chance providing your gear is sorted. I tested being nearly 100 kilo and being 78 and in both cases I could go fast. I just needed to adjust sailingstyle and gear. One thing is sure. I feel much healthier, albeit a lot older now

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noldus said..
Exactly, there is much more to be gained by a lightweight by havin not only the right gear properly tuned, but indeed also on the course he or she sails.

The slingshot I speak about
On an open course,
As stated above, as a lightweight you can only build up a certain speed half wind to start your run.
If you then bear off only half the depth you would normally do you gain a lot of speed,
if you then can keep the pressure in your sail and by pressin with your backfoot on your fin to make your board go upwind a few degrees you again start buildin up pressure. You are still on 115-120degrees off wind and then make the same slingshot you would normally do.

From seen in vids Lake George is a dream to work on this theory, for as a lightweight you can take a 54wide board with 5.6 in wind where the big boys need a 7.8/115.

The less bouyancy you need, the smaller you can go
The better you can let your gear fly on your fin the smaller fin you can sail, the less drag you have.

Mike didn't speak as a newbie, and his input about work-outs and sailin with weight disclosed he's quite fanatic.
I therefor hope you as well Mike, are willin to give this a shot because I am not only slowly startin to prove this works by workin my way through the ranks at Strand Horst, also at Herkingen (behind a dam where you need to slingshot) I can bear off deeper and go faster.

LOL! Not fair Arnold! You are letting the cat out of the bag and telling everyone our secrets!

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Kwibai said..
Glad to read the heated discussion cools down a little.

If I may I'd like to add a little personal insight.

On an open course I am trying to gain advantage from my lighter weight (in summer 78 kilo). I may be crazy but feel we lighter riders stand a chance without weight because of our lighter weight.

Many times I use 5.6 when the "giants of speed" are using 7.0 or even 7.8. I remember a session beating Vincent Valkenaers by 4 kilometres peakspeed, while he was on 7.0 and I on 5.6. On average 5x10 I just lost 0.1 of a knot if I recall well. I'm an old fart and I love to finetune for my weight and indeed go much deeper while using slignshot techniques heavier riders mostly cannot go for.

At a fixed course like Luderitz....forget it. Same for spots like La Franqui or in Holland Ouddorp. No chance unless you carry 25 kilo like Patrick did. The more laminar a course is, or the more curved a course is, the smaller the differences but weight will always win at equal skill level.

As I am aging my true passion is with open water, free course sailing, battling it out with others on the same spot. When things get truly hairy the fun starts...

It's clear to me in those conditions all stand an equal chance providing your gear is sorted. I tested being nearly 100 kilo and being 78 and in both cases I could go fast. I just needed to adjust sailingstyle and gear. One thing is sure. I feel much healthier, albeit a lot older now

Fore sure, I have always had great success by going in much smaller equipment than many other sailors are comfortable with.

Advantages. Less weight on the board and rig = less drag. Smallest sail you can get full power out of is always faster than a bigger one with more power than you can harness and more drag. All this allows a smaller fin, so again less drag. And then of a free course like LG, you can play with angles and gusts to find the limits. And on very flat water, one can take that low drag equation even further.

Some call this max power v's minimum drag.

Great to hear from you mate!

Yes, yet this technique not only not work for the heavy guys,

you need to be willin and able to try out somethin new

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noldus said..
Yes, yet this technique not only not work for the heavy guys,

you need to be willin and able to try out somethin new

I am not entirely sure this technique can not work for the bigger guys. But they have far less incentive to try it.

Interesting reading, will try that, thanks noldus (and the he or she)

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sailquik said..

Kwibai said..
Glad to read the heated discussion cools down a little.

If I may I'd like to add a little personal insight.

On an open course I am trying to gain advantage from my lighter weight (in summer 78 kilo). I may be crazy but feel we lighter riders stand a chance without weight because of our lighter weight.

Many times I use 5.6 when the "giants of speed" are using 7.0 or even 7.8. I remember a session beating Vincent Valkenaers by 4 kilometres peakspeed, while he was on 7.0 and I on 5.6. On average 5x10 I just lost 0.1 of a knot if I recall well. I'm an old fart and I love to finetune for my weight and indeed go much deeper while using slignshot techniques heavier riders mostly cannot go for.

At a fixed course like Luderitz....forget it. Same for spots like La Franqui or in Holland Ouddorp. No chance unless you carry 25 kilo like Patrick did. The more laminar a course is, or the more curved a course is, the smaller the differences but weight will always win at equal skill level.

As I am aging my true passion is with open water, free course sailing, battling it out with others on the same spot. When things get truly hairy the fun starts...

It's clear to me in those conditions all stand an equal chance providing your gear is sorted. I tested being nearly 100 kilo and being 78 and in both cases I could go fast. I just needed to adjust sailingstyle and gear. One thing is sure. I feel much healthier, albeit a lot older now

Fore sure, I have always had great success by going in much smaller equipment than many other sailors are comfortable with.

Advantages. Less weight on the board and rig = less drag. Smallest sail you can get full power out of is always faster than a bigger one with more power than you can harness and more drag. All this allows a smaller fin, so again less drag. And then of a free course like LG, you can play with angles and gusts to find the limits. And on very flat water, one can take that low drag equation even further.

Some call this max power v's minimum drag.

Great to hear from you mate!

Likewise mate

The accelleration you can get from smaller gear is insane compared to being forced to use larger gear when heavier. Especially the split second transition when performed the right way can be mindblowing when lighter and thus having the ability to go small on all gear variables. Masts, by the way, are critical to maximize accelleration potential.

After lettin yesterdays sink in I do feel I should apologize, for I came out of bed wrong way (temp was less and wind even lesser) and readin to get burned on a point I didn't try makin kinda got me.. (writin first two posts cost me several hours writin as clearly as I could what I ment, and it still wasn't clear enough)
I will not however take back my words for you now know I will stand up for what I know is right, (and still in trial and error fase) spent a great deal of time on and whilst doin that provin the theory works.
I do would love to meet you and share a tea/coffee over thoughts because the man described by Kwibai is the same I pictured from readin your posts on gp3s. Yes also a hug is optional

When you asked to elaborate on the slingshot, wasn't that openin the bag?
Yes a heavy weight can benefit from the same strategy, only often they don't for they don't need to or don't make it as deep as they should and thus it don't work.


On topic,
-to those that want to sail with bouyant weight, here they use a 5L camelbag next to lead plates which are easy to change for extra weight.
-even if some don't like the idea of a belt, keep in mind that a belt only strapped around your waist is quickly ditched in times of need.

But I will keep sayin that for the many of sailors, me included, there's more to be gained by workin on their stance to make that perfect 7
When your on a longer downwind run or even a longer stretch halfwind and you think your stance is right, try only pushin your crouch forward and see what happens (as in speakin of growin balls).
Even the fastest speeders, when they launch their slingshot, throw their heads back to achieve the same.


Maybe I just let another cat out, but where theory meets reality it is only your own determination that regains balance.

Thanks Noldus for sharing your knowledge/experience. I will try your technique.

being a lightweight, I used to add 3kg of lead in my backpack when speed sailing.
One day I had a bit of a crash leaving the beach and the lead fell out.
That day (after losing the weight) I did my best speeds ever.
Haven't used the weight since.