I was just wondering on what the top speed would be on a foil and what we think the it will get up to in the future as well as what gear would be needed for high speed runs.

I am using the Patrik foil comp 91 and the Patrik racing foil with a 8m Patrik sail

Probably will be with a 300 sq cm foil or smaller, that needs 25 mph boats peed to start to fly, topping out near the mid 40's.

Nico just did 37.83 knots

not sure how fast he's actually going but still pretty awesome stuff

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Cluffy said..
not sure how fast he's actually going but still pretty awesome stuff

Now that's balls to the wall!! Committed! Sure makes me keen to jump on a foil now

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DarrylG said..
Nico just did 37.83 knots

Close to AA nautical mile standing record that is somewhere around 30/31 and change. It also seems where foils are topping out ... and the 34.44 over 500 is almost 20 knots below Luderitz speeds, and a good 10 below a lot of results in other locations by riders far from being world champions!

Still, doing 34 on a foil is kind of very very very scary ...

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duzzi said..

DarrylG said..
Nico just did 37.83 knots

Close to AA nautical mile standing record that is somewhere around 30/31 and change. It also seems where foils are topping out ... and the 34.44 over 500 is almost 20 knots below Luderitz speeds, and a good 10 below a lot of results in other locations by riders far from being world champions!

Still, doing 34 on a foil is kind of very very very scary ...

Yes still slower than current records and foil may never reach those speeds. what I find impressive is these speeds are in 20 to 25knots of wind. Where the Luderitz speeds are in 50knots of wind

I wonder about foil speeds.
I have maybe 30 days on a 600 sq cm front foil.
Foils up in 14 knot breeze with a 5 meter sail...maybe 11 knot boat speed. For me, tops out in around 19-22 mph at 17 knot breeze with 5.0 sail.
That is lighter wind than my Isonic 111 with a 7.4 sail...and less top speed.
So, maybe a 400 sq cmfoil would get up in 15 knot boardspeed and go a bit faster?
Maybe a 300 sq cm front wing?

Phantom has a speed setup for sale. It's the R line which is the expensive stuff. Most of us mere mortals go with the X series.
www.phantom-windsurfing.com/foils/p/iris-r-speed-pro

The thing I like about foil speed sailing is the accessibility. Sure you still need a low drag foil but I think you will use it more than a 60 litre speed board. And you don't need gale force winds and mirror smooth water to do it. You do however need big bronze balls to put the hammer down on a foil and I start soiling myself at about 22 knots lol.

There IS a 145 lbs. windfoiler at Berkeley who uses a 550 sq cm foil with 6.5 slalom sails in 10-20 mph wind when I am using a 4.2 and 600 sq cm foil.

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Cluffy said..


The thing I like about foil speed sailing is the accessibility. Sure you still need a low drag foil but I think you will use it more than a 60 litre speed board. And you don't need gale force winds and mirror smooth water to do it. You do however need big bronze balls to put the hammer down on a foil and I start soiling myself at about 22 knots lol.

I am not so sure about foil accessibility ... I can easily brake 30 knots with my smaller 80 to 95 liters slalom boards, and all the people I talk to do too with all kinds of slalom set ups and conditions. But I'd be terrified to do 30 knots on a foil ... might just be an age thing

Still the gap is there. I quoted before AA results from last year. He did a 30/31 and change foil record on the nautical mile, but in the same conditions he did 41 and change on a windsurf ...

Speed will always be limited by the drag created by the hydrofoil, reduce that and you go faster. There comes a point where the reduced span creates handling problems and the whole setup gets very twitchy, as you can see in Goyards video. Maybe it's time to get rid of the fuselage and stabiliser in the quest to go over 40 knots.

You mean 2 separate foils?
Or maybe a 150 cm fuze, 250 sqcm front foil, and narrow thin tapering mast?

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DarrylG said..
Yes still slower than current records and foil may never reach those speeds. what I find impressive is these speeds are in 20 to 25knots of wind. Where the Luderitz speeds are in 50knots of wind

Windsurfers now very regularly do 37-40 knots in only 25 knots of wind on nice flat water.

eg: This one was a 39kt x 2 sec. 80L x 59cm slalom board and 5.7m sail.

This season Spotty was doing high 30's Kts on a Formula Board and 7.7m sail at Lake George in perhaps around 20 knots of wind.

Yes I seem to remember Sloweeee saying once he needed 28 knot gusts to do 40 knots. This may have dropped slightly due to equipment and sailing conditions. I am looking forward to seeing the PWA slalom guys in action to see where the real world crossover is. 15 ? 20 knts?
The foils are certainly efficient in the lower winds. ( again Nico had a session 3/4/21 - only 32.78 2 sec but also 28.58 1/2 hour in 15/18knots wind)
Below is Nico's latest session. 18 to 30 knot with a 4.3m sail. Slight 2 sec improvement. 37.98 knots.

~40k wipeout... OUCH!

And hooked in

And a metre up

Still the technology and design has come so far in the last year or two... good effort Phantom and Nico!

Interesting comparison with a slapper on the same day

Wow! That's very impressive..... and very scary!!

It is quite interesting that it looks as though in what would be considered rough water conditions for slalom or speed gear, that a foil may be approaching being faster.

Probably should move this thread to the foiling section, because it's going start annoying the GPS fin sailors when Nico starts cracking into the 40s

Boston, that's exactly what foils were originally designed to do on larger high speed powerboats.
It's only recently that 'lightwind' has become a major attribute for foil design.

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tonyk said..
Probably should move this thread to the foiling section, because it's going start annoying the GPS fin sailors when Nico starts cracking into the 40s

I think We are just comparing, nothing annoying about the ac75 doing what they did in the American cup!

But to be honest to call sustaining 40 knots for 1" ... breaking the 40 knots barrier is a bit ... unusual. The gold standard is the average speed over 500 meters. 40 knots over 1" means that you are sustaining that speed for ... 20 meters ... nothing to get very excited about.

AA 40+ knots windsurf record over the nautical miles last year means an average of 40 knots over 90" ...

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duzzi said..

tonyk said..
Probably should move this thread to the foiling section, because it's going start annoying the GPS fin sailors when Nico starts cracking into the 40s

I think We are just comparing, nothing annoying about the ac75 doing what they did in the American cup!

But to be honest to call sustaining 40 knots for 1" ... breaking the 40 knots barrier is a bit ... unusual. The gold standard is the average speed over 500 meters. 40 knots over 1" means that you are sustaining that speed for ... 20 meters ... nothing to get very excited about.

AA 40+ knots windsurf record over the nautical miles last year means an average of 40 knots over 90" ...

Local wa sailor did 40knot Nm in Albany last yr. not just the pros

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BSN101 said..

duzzi said..

tonyk said..
Probably should move this thread to the foiling section, because it's going start annoying the GPS fin sailors when Nico starts cracking into the 40s

I think We are just comparing, nothing annoying about the ac75 doing what they did in the American cup!

But to be honest to call sustaining 40 knots for 1" ... breaking the 40 knots barrier is a bit ... unusual. The gold standard is the average speed over 500 meters. 40 knots over 1" means that you are sustaining that speed for ... 20 meters ... nothing to get very excited about.

AA 40+ knots windsurf record over the nautical miles last year means an average of 40 knots over 90" ...

Local wa sailor did 40knot Nm in Albany last yr. not just the pros

The point I am making is that Nicolas Goyard saying that "40 knots are getting closer and closer" because some 1" (or 2") runs are touching 40 knots is a bit optimistic. Nobody measures speed records over 1" or 2". All you are looking at over 1" or 2" runs are random fluctuations around a burst of speed. Over 500 meters NG is doing 29 knots, yes, faster than Pascal Maka 27.82 windsurfing record from ... 1982

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duzzi said..

BSN101 said..

duzzi said..

tonyk said..
Probably should move this thread to the foiling section, because it's going start annoying the GPS fin sailors when Nico starts cracking into the 40s

I think We are just comparing, nothing annoying about the ac75 doing what they did in the American cup!

But to be honest to call sustaining 40 knots for 1" ... breaking the 40 knots barrier is a bit ... unusual. The gold standard is the average speed over 500 meters. 40 knots over 1" means that you are sustaining that speed for ... 20 meters ... nothing to get very excited about.

AA 40+ knots windsurf record over the nautical miles last year means an average of 40 knots over 90" ...

Local wa sailor did 40knot Nm in Albany last yr. not just the pros

The point I am making is that Nicolas Goyard saying that "40 knots are getting closer and closer" because some 1" (or 2") runs are touching 40 knots is a bit optimistic. Nobody measures speed records over 1" or 2". All you are looking at over 1" or 2" runs are random fluctuations around a burst of speed. Over 500 meters NG is doing 29 knots, yes, faster than Pascal Maka 27.82 windsurfing record from ... 1982

Nico has done plenty of 35 plus 500m. where he got the 39 peaks was on the phantom photo shoot. Unfortunately the spot was not suitable for longer runs

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DarrylG said..

duzzi said..

BSN101 said..

duzzi said..

tonyk said..
Probably should move this thread to the foiling section, because it's going start annoying the GPS fin sailors when Nico starts cracking into the 40s

I think We are just comparing, nothing annoying about the ac75 doing what they did in the American cup!

But to be honest to call sustaining 40 knots for 1" ... breaking the 40 knots barrier is a bit ... unusual. The gold standard is the average speed over 500 meters. 40 knots over 1" means that you are sustaining that speed for ... 20 meters ... nothing to get very excited about.

AA 40+ knots windsurf record over the nautical miles last year means an average of 40 knots over 90" ...

Local wa sailor did 40knot Nm in Albany last yr. not just the pros

The point I am making is that Nicolas Goyard saying that "40 knots are getting closer and closer" because some 1" (or 2") runs are touching 40 knots is a bit optimistic. Nobody measures speed records over 1" or 2". All you are looking at over 1" or 2" runs are random fluctuations around a burst of speed. Over 500 meters NG is doing 29 knots, yes, faster than Pascal Maka 27.82 windsurfing record from ... 1982

Nico has done plenty of 35 plus 500m. where he got the 39 peaks was on the phantom photo shoot. Unfortunately the spot was not suitable for longer runs

Aaawww come on, do a smokin Alpha and come back. Lol. It's totally amazing. 22 knots scares me still.

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DarrylG said..

duzzi said..

BSN101 said..

duzzi said..

tonyk said..
Probably should move this thread to the foiling section, because it's going start annoying the GPS fin sailors when Nico starts cracking into the 40s

I think We are just comparing, nothing annoying about the ac75 doing what they did in the American cup!

But to be honest to call sustaining 40 knots for 1" ... breaking the 40 knots barrier is a bit ... unusual. The gold standard is the average speed over 500 meters. 40 knots over 1" means that you are sustaining that speed for ... 20 meters ... nothing to get very excited about.

AA 40+ knots windsurf record over the nautical miles last year means an average of 40 knots over 90" ...

Local wa sailor did 40knot Nm in Albany last yr. not just the pros

The point I am making is that Nicolas Goyard saying that "40 knots are getting closer and closer" because some 1" (or 2") runs are touching 40 knots is a bit optimistic. Nobody measures speed records over 1" or 2". All you are looking at over 1" or 2" runs are random fluctuations around a burst of speed. Over 500 meters NG is doing 29 knots, yes, faster than Pascal Maka 27.82 windsurfing record from ... 1982

Nico has done plenty of 35 plus 500m. where he got the 39 peaks was on the phantom photo shoot. Unfortunately the spot was not suitable for longer runs

Of course he goes fast! He is Nicolas Goyard!!!!!!! But when he does 40 knots on a foil over 500 meters, then he will have broken the 40 knots barrier (a barrier that was broken by a windsurf back in 1988, 40.48, Erik Beale).

I think it does show that the 40 knots are coming in sight. I have very fond memories of the place he went over 39: it is beautiful, but not really a place for records. Its geography makes it extremely gusty with gusts that would hardly ever last long enough for a reasonable speed over the 500m.
I don't think one would get anywhere near this speed on a finned board there.

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BSN101 said..
Local wa sailor did 40knot Nm in Albany last yr. not just the pros

Yep. Let's get a bit of perspective here.

Tony Wynhoven did over 41 kt NM at Lake George many years ago. (2012?)

Spotty did over 40 kt NM as well at the same time.

And they did it is considerably less wind than last years Euro sailors.

Spotty and I did over 40 knots on wave boards even before that.

In the GPS-TC, 375 sailors have cracked a 2 second 40Kts. Roughly another 100 have done over 39Kts. A dozen have done over 50 knots.

Lets not get precious about cracking 40 knots not being over 500m either. 40 is 40, even if it is only for a few seconds. 500m is just a random distance chosen for the WSSRC record long before windsurfing, video timing systems and GPS were even invented. It means nothing else, and places where top 500m averages can be scored are very few and quite exclusive. When the 500m was chosen for the WSSRC 'Record', hand timing by stopwatches was the only way, with a very high error margin!! They had to have a huge distance to try to get some reasonable accuracy. Modern, best tech consumer GPS can give accuracy of less than 0.1 knots over 2 seconds, and an order of magnitude better over 500m (comparable to video timing).

I think it's quite clear now that 40 will be broken soon on a windsurfing foil, and probably a few other sailors will do it as the equipment and technique is developed, but I would say the 40 knots on a foil is more comparable to the 50 knots on a fin.