I put together some video from the foot slipping out day, in case anyone has any tips. Mostly runs at the beginning, then gybes and then at the very end there is a section of me trying to point upwind.

For "pointing" upwind, I'd say pinch less/foot more for better VMG on a slalom board.

Looking at my polar plots, ~17kts. board speed and ~35deg. seems to be a sweet spot.

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WindFlyer said..
For "pointing" upwind, I'd say pinch less/foot more for better VMG on a slalom board.

Looking at my polar plots, ~17kts. board speed and ~35deg. seems to be a sweet spot.

Cheers. So for pointing should I point as high as I can without coming off a plane, or go a little lower and maintain more speed?

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thedoor said..

WindFlyer said..
For "pointing" upwind, I'd say pinch less/foot more for better VMG on a slalom board.

Looking at my polar plots, ~17kts. board speed and ~35deg. seems to be a sweet spot.

Cheers. So for pointing should I point as high as I can without coming off a plane, or go a little lower and maintain more speed?

There are two techniques. One is to slog upwind slowly with your windward rail down. The other is to gain speed by bearing away to get lift off the fin and once your able to raise your windward rail, then start to climb upwind by powering off your fin. I prefer the latter, but you need to be powered up.

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thedoor said..

Cheers. So for pointing should I point as high as I can without coming off a plane, or go a little lower and maintain more speed?

Depends on the objective.
If one needs to make it back upwind to a precise pre-determined spot, say the launch or the starting point for speed runs in a fairly defined space, then pointing angle (to that spot) would take precedence - even if that means slogging as noted by John340.
If one just needs to make it upwind in general, one looks for the best compromise between angle and speed (VMG) to get there (John340's technique tip - footing - is a good one to get going and/or when power decreases).

Maybe I was under finned today, but I struggled to get upwind today, on my 7.8m I was on Black Project Weed Speed 34cm. I was spinning out if I pushed too hard on the fin

Is there a way to calculate my VMG from my gpx file to compare slogging to planning? Seems like slogging was the winner today.

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thedoor said..
Maybe I was under finned today, but I struggled to get upwind today, on my 7.8m I was on Black Project Weed Speed 34cm. I was spinning out if I pushed too hard on the fin

Is there a way to calculate my VMG from my gpx file to compare slogging to planning? Seems like slogging was the winner today.

The largest sail I've used with my BP 34 WS is 7.1. So I think you were definitely under finned. I'd be using the 38 as a minimum. How wide is your board? Typically I use the 38 with my Falcon 115 and Warp 7.0 and the 34 with my Falcon 97 and Warp 6.2.

agree with John ,weed fins don't point all that great vs pointers ,so try different sizes ,with my 115 Patrik I use a 38 with a 7.0 &7.5 4 cam race sail then next step down is the 34x 2 ,32,27,25 ,
, Delta 24,22 .and 19 ,if you are 96 kgs like me .
every board is different ,and carbon weed fins seem nicer , i have 2 and they are my favourites ,they just seem to be a little bit
nicer when getting overpowered .pretty good vid ,and nice sailing ,maybe just try a 36 ,

I have to do a few pointing runs to get back to the carpark at my favourite spot. With a 20 weed speed I reckon I can point at the same spot whether slogging or planing and railing up. Often I just end up slogging because I have to beer off a bit to get on the plane.

Nice video, out of interest what gopro mounting system have you used?

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Tardy said..
agree with John ,weed fins don't point all that great vs pointers ,so try different sizes ,with my 115 Patrik I use a 38 with a 7.0 &7.5 4 cam race sail then next step down is the 34x 2 ,32,27,25 ,
, Delta 24,22 .and 19 ,if you are 96 kgs like me .
every board is different ,and carbon weed fins seem nicer , i have 2 and they are my favourites ,they just seem to be a little bit
nicer when getting overpowered .pretty good vid ,and nice sailing ,maybe just try a 36 ,

A 28 cm Fangy fin fires upwind . More than enough for a 9.4 m sail and 84 cm wide board .

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John340 said..

thedoor said..
Maybe I was under finned today, but I struggled to get upwind today, on my 7.8m I was on Black Project Weed Speed 34cm. I was spinning out if I pushed too hard on the fin

Is there a way to calculate my VMG from my gpx file to compare slogging to planning? Seems like slogging was the winner today.

The largest sail I've used with my BP 34 WS is 7.1. So I think you were definitely under finned. I'd be using the 38 as a minimum. How wide is your board? Typically I use the 38 with my Falcon 115 and Warp 7.0 and the 34 with my Falcon 97 and Warp 6.2.

Cheers. That board is 71cm

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cald said..
Nice video, out of interest what gopro mounting system have you used?

Thanks. Go pro max. I need to use telemetry overlay software to add the gps. With regular GoPro it auto loads it

Is there a conversion chart for delta weed versus regular weed? One of my spots is pretty shallow.

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thedoor said..

John340 said..

thedoor said..
Maybe I was under finned today, but I struggled to get upwind today, on my 7.8m I was on Black Project Weed Speed 34cm. I was spinning out if I pushed too hard on the fin

Is there a way to calculate my VMG from my gpx file to compare slogging to planning? Seems like slogging was the winner today.

The largest sail I've used with my BP 34 WS is 7.1. So I think you were definitely under finned. I'd be using the 38 as a minimum. How wide is your board? Typically I use the 38 with my Falcon 115 and Warp 7.0 and the 34 with my Falcon 97 and Warp 6.2.

Cheers. That board is 71cm

OK, the same size as my Fanatic 115. I use the following fins with my Fanatic 115 / Warp 7.7 combo
- 38cm or 40cm pointer
- 40cm long x 33cm deep weed speed
- 24cm delta

Your Black Project 34 is 34cm long x 28cm deep. It's a great fin, but way too small for your 7.8m / 71cm board combo. It will work really well with a 62 wide board and 6.2m sail.

I only use the delta at Lake George where it's either very shallow (< 50 cm) or very thick weed.

I use the weed speed when there is floating ribbon weed.

If you want to fly, use a pointer.

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thedoor said..
Is there a conversion chart for delta weed versus regular weed? One of my spots is pretty shallow.

This is my ready reckoner. Note that I weigh 90kgs.

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thedoor said..

Is there a way to calculate my VMG from my gpx file to compare slogging to planning? Seems like slogging was the winner today.

GPS Action Replay PRO can compute VMG. Not sure whether it does that from a .gpx file, but it does so from the files formats of the Locosys and Motion devices.

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John340 said..

thedoor said..

John340 said..

thedoor said..
Maybe I was under finned today, but I struggled to get upwind today, on my 7.8m I was on Black Project Weed Speed 34cm. I was spinning out if I pushed too hard on the fin

Is there a way to calculate my VMG from my gpx file to compare slogging to planning? Seems like slogging was the winner today.

The largest sail I've used with my BP 34 WS is 7.1. So I think you were definitely under finned. I'd be using the 38 as a minimum. How wide is your board? Typically I use the 38 with my Falcon 115 and Warp 7.0 and the 34 with my Falcon 97 and Warp 6.2.

Cheers. That board is 71cm

OK, the same size as my Fanatic 115. I use the following fins with my Fanatic 115 / Warp 7.7 combo
- 38cm or 40cm pointer
- 40cm long x 33cm deep weed speed
- 24cm delta

Your Black Project 34 is 34cm long x 28cm deep. It's a great fin, but way too small for your 7.8m / 71cm board combo. It will work really well with a 62 wide board and 6.2m sail.

I only use the delta at Lake George where it's either very shallow (< 50 cm) or very thick weed.

I use the weed speed when there is floating ribbon weed.

If you want to fly, use a pointer.

Thank you

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WindFlyer said..

thedoor said..

Is there a way to calculate my VMG from my gpx file to compare slogging to planning? Seems like slogging was the winner today.

GPS Action Replay PRO can compute VMG. Not sure whether it does that from a .gpx file, but it does so from the files formats of the Locosys and Motion devices.

downloaded the zip file, but could not get it to install lol

Can kind of see my upwind angles slogging versus planning, but as mentioned above not really a fair comparison as I was underfinned for that 71cm board and 7.8m



PS: this is a different day from the first video in this thread

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thedoor said..
Can kind of see my upwind angles slogging versus planning, but as mentioned above not really a fair comparison as I was underfinned for that 71cm board and 7.8m

PS: this is a different day from the first video in this thread

I never directly compared tracks like that for slogging vs. planing but it verifies that I seemed to point a little higher while slogging unless really lit up on a fin.

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thedoor said..

WindFlyer said..

thedoor said..

Is there a way to calculate my VMG from my gpx file to compare slogging to planning? Seems like slogging was the winner today.

GPS Action Replay PRO can compute VMG. Not sure whether it does that from a .gpx file, but it does so from the files formats of the Locosys and Motion devices.

downloaded the zip file, but could not get it to install lol

Its quite interesting question you raise 'thedoor'....first off, from my understanding you really need GPSActionReplay Pro to find VMG easily from your tracks...(to install, you need Java installed and working before you try to instal..email Yann if any issues, normally quick to respond).

Assuming you get that far, first off it seems irrelevant 'the angle' you can go upwind..I can chug (I.e. no plane) upwind at crazy angles...what seems more relevant is VMG, or how fast you can get upwind. What one 'feels' on the water also seems irrelevant. Until I saw the data I thought/felt/on water fin A was better upwind than fin B but as far as actual upwind ability fin B smashed fin A.

For example I thought my FF22 or FF28 was my absolute best fin to get up wind in high or low wind conditions respectively...turns out the intermediate FF24 smashes both in marginal conditions and is only 'just' equaled in "perfect" conditions by the FF22..(Perfect equals dead flat and as much wind as I can handle which is Albany for WA). In terms of my numbers (totally meaningless as intermediate sailor) the FF24 gives me 10knots VMG averaged over 500m at on water speed of 19knots in really light wind condition of max 14 knots with a 8.6m sail. The bigger fin (FF28) gets me going in far lighter conditions (11-12 knots) but my VMG is 7knots for a speed of 18knots. The FF22 (current fav fin by feel) gives me 8 knots VMG on average unless on 'perfect day' where I get to 11knots+ VMG, linear speed is 18-19knots.

I took a look at a few 'good' sailors...Mr Slowboat (arguably one of the better sailors here in WA at least) does 11.7+ knots VMG over nearly a km but interestingly his speed is only around 18knots, he does this for every track I check....haven't found anyone's tracks beating this VMG including foils (foils seem to be able to get about the same at peak) ....More intriguing is my rookie upwind ability (VMG) in almost no wind is only 2 knots slower than experienced sailor in high wind...how can it be?

If all those words are too much, seems like VMG of 11-12 knots is around maximum for fin or foil??.....hope to be proven wrong. I post mr Slowboat data below on a regular day (last session with dubious wind) as example as best in class. Look at the top red highlighted sections for averages over green highlighted section and red arrow for position on track. Also weird how linear speed is almost same for me versus experienced sailor versus foil in almost all wind conditions with best fin selection. That is speed on water of 18-19knots and VMG 10-11knots.

Is there examples of better VMG?

What is VMG?

VMG = Velocity Made Good. The component of your velocity directly into the wind. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_made_good

You can also read VMG off the polar plot which both GPSSpeedreader and GPSAR Pro can display. Attached is same Slowboat data showing polar plot. Interestingly the polar plot shows Chris has quite a bias in the angle he can truck upwind at for port or starboard. i.e. Starboard (right hand forward) is best and he is sailing at 46deg (angle between true wind and course) but opposite tack is much more offwind at 53deg (not sure if this is true or function of biased polar plot due to sailing location or other factors. He is doing the best VMG in the highest chop area. I suspect bias (or a sudden wind shift) as I managed to find a 100m section where I was doing 13knots VMG...but this was in Albany which is dominated by very long fast runs in one direction and relatively short runs in other direction..will be interesting to see what boardsurfr or other experienced sailors think of polar plots and how reliable they are.

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Flex2 said..
VMG = Velocity Made Good. The component of your velocity directly into the wind. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_made_good

Thanks. I've helmed a lot so I understand the concept but never knew what it was called. I've never really thought of it sailboarding but I suppose you do it automatically.

OK cool, good tip on the Java, I got it to load

1) This is from the day I was under finned at palo alto and struggled to get upwind (looks like I did better VMG slogging?)


2) This if from my quick day at Haskins (planing VMG better?)


3) This is me on freeride windfoil

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Flex2 said..

Thanks for that reference!

Looks like Slowboat and I have generally converged on a sweet spot of board speed and pointing angle:

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WindFlyer said..
Looking at my polar plots, ~17kts. board speed and ~35deg. seems to be a sweet spot.

To clarify when I wrote "~35deg." what I meant was point up ~35deg from straight crosswind heading

So is 60 degrees as good as a sailboard can point? I think we used to get 30-35 degrees on the boat..

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sboardcrazy said..
So is 60 degrees as good as a sailboard can point? I think we used to get 30-35 degrees on the boat..

It depends on what sort of sailboard, but almost all 'Boats' point higher than windsurfers for best VMG.

Raceboard with large Centreboard can point quite high.

Salom board powered up quite a bit lower, but best VMG is at a lower angle and much higher speed.

Speed board: You need to 'foot' and play the gusts and best VMG is at the higher end of the range stated below.

Best VMG at Lake George (flat water to small chop) on most of my smaller slalom and speed boards with 40 degree weed fins and 50 degree Delta type weed fins for me is between 20 and 23 knots precisely (depending on the combo). I know this from listening to real time 'speed talk' feedback while working upwind and observing my gains compared with other sailors and studying my tracks after the sessions. I have refined and leaned this over at least the last 6 or 7 seasons. On weed fins and pointer fins it is different, but not much.

It is interesting to me that back on the 80's and 90's the best upwind VMG speeds (measured with SpeedWatch) were considerably lower, (non weedy water) but the boards and fins were a lot different.

If assume planing is speed on water above 10knots or so looks like I can point at 31 deg to wind direction (i.e. 59 deg upwind from pure crosswind)..attached is my 'best' day in perfect conditions. Best VMG angle seems to be closer to 45 deg. On this plot my best VMG says 13.2knots at the same 31 deg but you can see the whole plot appears to be 'rotated' by roughly 7 deg which I assume is location bias (or some sort of wind shift) which would reduce my actual VMG significantly and spin my heading closer to 40 deg. When chugging and trying to head upwind at 4knots looks like my angle to wind is around 18 deg or so. (not apparent is this chart)

Sailquik, I think you mean your speed on water is 20-23 knots when heading upwind...all realtime feedback systems for windsurfing currently give your speed, not VMG. You only have a couple of tracks shared on KA72 and only one at Lake George but based on the one, your best VMG is a super impressive VMG of 15knots at 45 deg to wind with average speed on water of 22.89 knots (exactly as you state)....there is location bias on the plot which would reduce the actual #'s but still way above others.