Select to expand quote

AUS4 said..

N1GEL said.




Yeah, it figures that the cost would out weight any small gain... and of course that would be passed onto us, the end consumers.

I've always sailed without the inserts, but think I'll try them on my bigger slalom board this summer and make my own mind up based on my scientific expertise

Inserts for the small boards not the bigger ones Nigel.

Ah uh... so better to try it on my 100 ltr than my 115? My 87 doesn't have cutouts. Thanks Rick. Will give it a go.

Select to expand quote

kato said..


This board is an old speed board that I reshaped the bottom on many years ago. About 9' long by 16". Started its new life without the cutouts but I could only manage mid to high 38 5x10 and it felt too sticky on the water. To fix that I added the cutouts, which freed the board up and got it into the 42 5x10 mark.
It was having too much flat that got me into the problem and the cutouts that solved it. Great board on a broad course.

great job kato, the narrow tail makes the fin look much bigger ;), and those cut outs are square compared to the the original post ;)

You're not being smart the way you think.
Windsurfing does not have billions of dollars to throw into theoritical useless testing. It's all done by human experience.

Why do you think RESPECTED shaper's are still in demand in the windsurfing shaping and sail design world? If some dummy on a computer can just CAD the best designs, there would be no need for respected shapers to have work and a good reputation.
Go back to your theory world, stay away from something that is real.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said...

Why do you think RESPECTED shaper's are still in demand in the windsurfing shaping and sail design world? If some dummy on a computer can just CAD the best designs, there would be no need for respected shapers to have work and a good reputation.
Go back to your theory world, stay away from something that is real.

Hey world cup champ, humble pie and chill pill for you...

Back to the subject, always wondered why you would still have plates in some boards, pretty sure the pros (sorry not talking about you LeeD ) use one and only one setting on these boards?

I think it's time to ask Johnny to join the debate ?

Why the animosity?
You do know CAD is useless for board design, but it's great for drawing up the pictures AFTER it's designed.
Or, do you consider colors as board design?

Surely you mean CFD not CAD. If not, that is the stupidest comment I have ever seen on this site.
Which in itself is more impressive than your world cup heroics

Select to expand quote

timm said..
Surely you mean CFD not CAD. If not, that is the stupidest comment I have ever seen on this site.
Which in itself is more impressive than your world cup heroics

Stand by, there is history

I think if you put the world's best computer inside a robot and programmed it to sail a windsurfer, it'd be a perpetual beginner. Until you can get computers up to speed with that task CFD won't be much use. For battleships which just plow on through, taking a minute or two to change a power setting and 6 months to change a trim angle, fair enough.

For sure Ian. The Americas Cup teams spend a fortune on that sort of stuff and still go back to two boat testing to get real results. I may not be great with computers but how do you get a shape cut without using CAD? or is it more accurate to hand mow a blank? please tell Lee

LeeD, I don't think the Seabreeze forum is for you. Time to pack you bags and troll somewhere else.

can someone pass the popcorn?

Just the facts.
Tem Berkestresser of Berky Sailboards, based out of the East Coast of the US, was making cutout tailed, but through to the deck, wide windsurf boards from the late '80's, had pictures to show, had plenty of rider's who used his boards.
Berky boards was the first to use the Stubby concept, slalom boards 8'4" for 100 liters, 7'9" for 85 liters, back in the mid '90's
His cutout boards look just like the very first picture of this thread, minus the angle cutout at the rails.
This thread is about STRAIGHT CUTOUTS, right?
If you can't grasp the concept that everything you do today was done yesterday, then it's YOUR LOSS, good luck.
And yes, Tem did mention he copied the idea from another 15 year's previous, in the days of the long wooden 100 lbs surboards of the 1950's.
Sorry you are too young and dumb to know these FACTS. Look it up, but I doubt Tem was foresighted enough to posts his ideas thru the internet....today or 20 year's ago.

Lee, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. CAD when used properly is an enormously powerful design tool and opens up levels of creativity and accuracy never imagined a few years ago, but it is just that, a tool, the designer still needs to know what they are doing. For board design I believe it is brilliant. I can do all facets of the board design on my computer on the couch while drinking a latte, from my initial concept sketching, the surfacing (shaping), the graphics and visualisation. It can then be built super accurately off that data on a CNC or alternatively I can produce templates so it can be hand shaped.
One of the massive advantages is that I can easily and quickly do multiple variations on that design and always have a baseline to come back to and I can quickly and accurately compare differences between various designs.
I am not criticising the traditional way of hand shaping boards and have an enormous respect for the skilled board builders and shapers we are lucky to have around the globe, however for me as a designer and not a skilled board craftsman CAD is an amazing tool that enables me to create these designs without those hand shaping skills.

To make a blanket statement like "You do know CAD is useless for board design"you are clearly ignorant of how modern CAD works.

Dude, seriously.....
Before CAD, hundreds of thousands of surfboards were cut out BY HAND.
Before CAD, thousands of windsurf boards were cut out and shaped BY HAND.
All CAD does is allow for mass production, close to exact outlines and shapes for repeated usage.
And just about every PROTOTYPE is still shaped by hand. CAD only does what a surfboard/sailboard/kiteboard designer TELLS it, it doesn't create the ideas, dimensions, or shapes, it just copies what it is told to copy.

Obviously, you DO know a bit about CAD shaping, I'll give you that.
But you also know that hand shaping is just as important for initial prototypes, when a mold doesn't already exist.
All this crap talk about precision of CAD. CAD doesn't account for weight and density of the foam, unless it's TOLD to. CAD can't account for the final shaper's extra pass wiith sandpaper. CAD is a TOOL for the shaper to use, one that gives him enhance precision to translate HIS IDEAS onto a blank. CAD doesn't design, it aids the designer.
You KNOW that.
I"m saying, while CAD is a great TOOL for a designer, you cannot create a working sailboard without the actual HUMAN behind the final shapes.
Now look at the first several posts. Some guys here think tank testing, CAD, and science will create the ideal surf/wind board. THAT is the issue that you should be addressing, not attacking someone who's shapes hundreds of surfboards without CAD.

CAD Computer Aided Design
CNC Computer Numerical Control
CFD Computational Fluid Dynamics
CAM Computer Aided Manufacture

(hope that hasn't ruined a good argument)

Mate , read what you first said...... 'You do know CAD is useless for board design" That is total BS and then read what I said...CAD is a tool for designers, where did I say it designed boards by itself? I am also not talking about building boards, yes prototypes have to be hand built or hand finished and all mine are either fully or partially. I am talking about the process that happens before it gets built and for that CAD is a brilliant tool. Yes hundreds and thousands of boards have be designed without CAD, cool, but hey we have these new amazing tools now, why not embrace them rather than be so closed minded to the opportunities they present.

Maybe you need to visit a professional design studio and see how designers are using the power of computers to be amazingly creative.

Select to expand quote

AUS4 said..
LeeD, I don't think the Seabreeze forum is for you. Time to pack you bags and troll somewhere else.

Perhaps back to rec.windsurfing

I was dying for Martin to get involved in this discussion. Kerching!!
Choc top anyone???

I am not actually involved in this topic, I am way off topic!!!!! however could only bite my tongue for so long. I have had a fairly long career in Car design, when I started no creative designers used computers and scorned, laughed at them and I have heard all the anti CAD arguments " they stifle creativity!!!! blah , blah " Now there would not be a creative designer in a car design studio anywhere that does not use CAD tools for the bulk of their creative work.
Back to cutouts...I have my opinions and have tried quite a few different ideas over the last few years, however I am not a physicist or engineer, just an industrial designer so not really qualified to get into the technicalities, I just know the basic theory and the rest has been trial and error....with an emphasis on error

Well said Martin!!!!!. CAD and CNC are perfect tools for our sport.

Eloquently said Mr Love. Was that Mr Lee I saw going out the back door with his tail between his legs.

Yep Craig, I believe they are and open up great opportunities. However I am not going to claim that it is mandatory to design a board on CAD nor that you will by using CAD get a superior product, that would be ridiculous....it comes down to the designer, their skills sets and way they choose to work , CAD is just a tool albeit a great one IMO. I chose to do it this way as that is where my skill sets are and I do see real advantages.
When it comes to CAM.....again I see advantages in using it for at least part of the process but again it comes down to choice , facilities and skill sets...do what works best for you.
However in my day job as I have said I have watched the process change from the initial scepticism and I would go as far as saying fear of CAD/ CAM to the point now where it is the accepted norm....not to say we no longer hand work....we do...and still do full size clay models.....the change being that the mills do all the grunt work and the skilled artisans do the final design iterations and finessing, the stuff that we humans are good at and love doing.

Enough from me...got CAD work to do!!!

I think that one day somebody manage to attach small 4k Camera under the board nose.

It will be quite interesting video to see how exactly board behave once planing full speed 30 -40 knots .

There is some simple project we could do one day.Even scarify a board and drill a hole to attach the smallest camera overlooking the fin and rear end of the board in action.

I could possibly do the technical part but there is another problem : I could not promise to reach the speeds required

Camera will be above the water level, fresh air allow for clear view... should work in my opinion to do some research

Tried that and got nothing useful. Need a very very small camera.

Now this a cutout !

helix ?

Select to expand quote

seanhogan said..
helix ?

Close, Elix