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FormulaNova said..

I need to dream up a category I could win. What about for the person that talks the most on Seabreeze?

I think Mark Australia has a good head start there!

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Windxtasy said..

FormulaNova said..

I need to dream up a category I could win. What about for the person that talks the most on Seabreeze?

I think Mark Australia has a good head start there!

Mark is my gybing idol. He do all the jibes , no matter what wind , chop or waves
If he jump into water , so only to cool down.

How about another category -

the Snake Move

Instead of being bored and crossing the 500m distance and gybing - start to improvise, and instead of straight cut through a chop cut a nice regular semi turns using, as a guidance, incoming chop waves.

I think such style could be easy developed into quite fascinating Olympic competition

GPS could measure the total number of snakes

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Carantoc said..

How about another category -

the Snake Move

Instead of being bored and crossing the 500m distance and gybing - start to improvise, and instead of straight cut through a chop cut a nice regular semi turns using, as a guidance, incoming chop waves.

I think such style could be easy developed into quite fascinating Olympic competition

GPS could measure the total number of snakes

Are you talking about my older concept ? 2 years ago ?
Get it try one day and will be surprised how fun it is to perform snake on choppy water.
I still like it but need plenty of wind to do and some gutts to chop the water in the most inconvenient places.
But I am afraid that in not for everybody , damm hard and risky for your sail when done at proper speed.

anyway get yourself a ticket one winter time to the snowy country and see what people do on the ski field.
Domain and signature of the beginner on the slope is going straight and fast down hill, All others try to improvise a bit with " unneceseary" turns

Re Snake I did try sometimes the mooring bouys as slalom poles on our bay. To get at maximum speed at fixed obstacles regardless of actual wave or chop is quite challenging and fascinating.
Definitely could be developed into windsurfing competition but organisation is quite complicated.
Unlike our slalom, there is allowed single sailor at the time. Setting a row of bouys in series also more complicated then one or two. Precise timing complicated

Indeed snake could be developed into GPS competition once more precised GPS will be available,
Counted will be overall speed and amplitude of sinus oscillation. Competitors will perform rhythmical semi turn along main course. Total area drawn on the water could be the best indication of the performance
speed x amplitude x frequency

Hey Macro,can't resist bringing up my idea for the 7th category of speed I have brought up before- Knots/kg

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/7th-measurement-category-for-GPSTC-knotskg/?page=1

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KA360 said..

Hey Macro,can't resist bringing up my idea for the 7th category of speed I have brought up before- Knots/kg

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/7th-measurement-category-for-GPSTC-knotskg/?page=1

KA360 good idea but there is fundamental flow.

Power to weight ratio is much in the favor of the lighter sailor. In absence excess of wind the lighter wins hands down.
There is also another factor to consider. For lighter sailor to put a few kilos is just matter of few extra Suasages and beers or backpack,
for fat person to slim down is terrible torture

It'll be hard to get approval to fiddle with what's been a brilliant idea Macro. My past idea, which fell flat, was a category for "latitude racing". Best time between the even minutes of latitude. A nautical mile if you can go directly north south, a bit longer if the breeze is not quite right. I thought it should appeal to the mathematically inclined geek because of its cartographical elegance. Not completely original borrows, a bit from that other GPS challenge

www.confluence.org/

Maybe we could include the confluences over ocean, the ones currently excluded from this competition?

Maybe suggest having a demonstration category each year, like the Olympics. If there's uproar about losing it at the end of a year, keep it in?

(I think I recall that a couple of blokes on Wallys were first to bag the confluence in one of the Great Lakes)
(edit again, no looks like they've now excluded inland waters www.confluence.org/country.php?id=3&showmap=true )

It's a fascinating site, I've just revisited it, ocean confluences within view of land are included. Here's one not yet bagged, the last one in NSW!
www.confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=-37&lon=150

Wow. And to think all I want to do is enjoy being out there windsurfing regardless of what any numbers tell you..........
Cheers
Marty

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Macroscien said..

KA360 said..

Hey Macro,can't resist bringing up my idea for the 7th category of speed I have brought up before- Knots/kg

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/7th-measurement-category-for-GPSTC-knotskg/?page=1

KA360 good idea but there is fundamental flow.

Power to weight ratio is much in the favor of the lighter sailor. In absence excess of wind the lighter wins hands down.
There is also another factor to consider. For lighter sailor to put a few kilos is just matter of few extra Suasages and beers or backpack,
for fat person to slim down is terrible torture

Your statement about power to weight ratio favoring lighter windsurfers is completely contrary to the overwhelming evidence when it comes to speed sailing. Come to think of it, it is even more contrary to the World Cup Slalom results where tall, heavy (and very skilled and fit) guys dominate.

In the absence of the really strong winds at Luderitz this year during the Pro weeks, the taller, heavier guys still dominated.

In fact, there was a certain sub-6ft, sub 80 KG young French lad that comprehensively out-sped a lot of much larger guys on the very windiest day while I was there. I might add on a day when I was very hesitant to make runs during the peak of the wind! (Gusting 50-60Kts)

www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=135649&uid=5203

That suggests that the smaller guys with lots of skill, confidence and experience (and extremely well tuned gear for their size) can do relatively better in the very strongest winds!

BTW. I calculate my speed to weight ratio after Luderitz is now 0.623. Gautier is on 0.642!!!

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sailquik said..

Your statement about power to weight ratio favoring lighter windsurfers is completely contrary to the overwhelming evidence when it comes to speed sailing.

I hope you had exciting and successful trip, congratulation.
But for convenience of speed sailing we are not going to re-write physics law here.
Doesn't matter - windsurfer, motor bike, drag car, jet plane or rocket ...

if the engine is stronger and mass smaller your ratio increase

what you do with this power and if you are able to control/ handle it that completely different story

now you could post as many red fingers again as you want

... I could propose next competition measuring G forces in windsurfing ( acceleration ratio) ... but that is already more that anybody here could handle...
bye

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Macroscien said..

sailquik said..

Your statement about power to weight ratio favoring lighter windsurfers is completely contrary to the overwhelming evidence when it comes to speed sailing.

I hope you had exciting and successful trip, congratulation.
But for convenience of speed sailing we are not going to re-write physics law here.
Doesn't matter - windsurfer, motor bike, drag car, jet plane or rocket ...

if the engine is stronger and mass smaller your ratio increase

what you do with this power and if you are able to control/ handle it that completely different story

now you could post as many red fingers again as you want

... I could propose next competition measuring G forces in windsurfing ( acceleration ratio) ... but that is already more that anybody here could handle...
bye

Thanks! I had an absolute ball!! (Between brief moments of wide-eyed terror! )

I think you are missing the point as it applies to windsurfers: Taller and heavier actually means more power to weight ratio! The reason is because of leverage. The laws of physics are quite clear on that. BTW, this does not seem to apply at all in Kitesurfing speed where there is no leverage advantage and some of the very fastest guys are quite average in height and weight.

I don't really understand what is wrong with you humans

I proposed something for our community for consideration that seems to be fun and bring additional valour to our windsurfing world.

If you don't like it , that is fine,

but this turned out to be spitting competition and you just seems to enjoying even more then main subject ( windsurfing )
chasing , barking and spitting on extraterrestrial creature (me).

If the same proposal come Kato or Brad you will be screaming in the joy of pleasure.

On every subject , on every neutral word I do say there is at least 2 red fingers.

If there is any place for next such competition ( Red Category) I am seems to be absolute SB champion.

Time for me really to get my f888g saucer and depart from SB....

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sailquik said..

Taller and heavier actually means more power to weight ratio! The reason is because of leverage. The laws of physics are quite clear on that.

This is actually quite interesting/ intriguing topic that could be resolved in the cold , civilized manner .

Power ratio of smaller guy vs. heavier windsurfer (?)

But obviously not for me to participate Doesn't matter if I could come with right mathematical formula or false , both will be spitted in red...

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sailquik said..


In fact, there was a certain sub-6ft, sub 80 KG young French lad that comprehensively out-sped a lot of much larger guys on the very windiest day while I was there. I might add on a day when I was very hesitant to make runs during the peak of the wind! (Gusting 50-60Kts)

www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=135649&uid=5203

That suggests that the smaller guys with lots of skill, confidence and experience (and extremely well tuned gear for their size) can do relatively better in the very strongest winds!

BTW. I calculate my speed to weight ratio after Luderitz is now 0.623. Gautier is on 0.642!!!

I think it has more to do with being French !!!

ha, its alright macro, i wouldn't take any of the forums to heart, its just a website thread,,,,in my experience, your wrong about weight, there is no advantage being lighter in any wind strength in regards to slalom sailing/speed sailing, sure there is plenty of great lighter sailors, but they would be better, faster, if they were heavier. It is weird how upset or offended people get by suggesting a new category. the hr and alpha category are great, there is definitely merit for a weight ratio handicap, personally, i could enjoy another alpha category, one where you can bear off, carve, and then bear off again on the exit run, basically not needing to get within 50m of starting point, since the 500m is the offical distance, it would make sense to have that category, the gpstc fundamentally is only concerned with speed, performance, so maybe a more recreational based category would be good for some. The format as it is, is fine, challenging, if anything was to change, it wouldn't really matter, people will adapt to the new challenges, and focus on them as they do the current challenges. Ha, i dont agree with macros ideas, but good on ya for sharing man, you seem very enthusiastic about your sailing, good luck

are we posting tracks?

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Macroscien said..

sailquik said..

Taller and heavier actually means more power to weight ratio! The reason is because of leverage. The laws of physics are quite clear on that.

This is actually quite interesting/ intriguing topic that could be resolved in the cold , civilized manner .

Power ratio of smaller guy vs. heavier windsurfer (?)

But obviously not for me to participate Doesn't matter if I could come with right mathematical formula or false , both will be spitted in red...

Don't worry about red thumbs Macro, non-thinkers don't understand thinkers. (Maybe seabreeze should have a red thumb trading scheme, you get allocated 50 when you sign up and unless you collect them you run out?)

I disagree Sailquick, the physics is not clear. Sail design being similar across sizes we must first assume that for a given wind there's an optimum sheeting angle for best sail lift to drag. ie. the lift generated by the optimally sized sail, in the hands of a skillful rider, is proportional to the sail size. ( this may not be true, but it's a good place to start)

The drag of a hull though the water should, at first estimate, be proportional to the weight it's carrying.

If you look at the righting moment of the sail vs. the righting moment of a rider you find that as the rider's weight and height go up the relative sized sail that can be counter balanced falls behind. This is because the sail size increases with the square of dimension. So as sail size increases the centre of effort goes up with the square root of sail size. Total righting moment of the sail goes up with the sail area to power of 1.5

This must be balanced by the increased righting moment of the heavier rider. But his dimensions only go up with the cube root of weight.

So total righting moment of the rider is going up with his weight to the power of only 1.33.

It's pretty clear by the physics that for a given wind strength, sail size cannot increase linearly with rider mass. This is pretty clear on the water, you can often find someone half your weight sailing a 4.0 when your maxed out on a 6.0.

So what's going on? Do lighter sailors not sheet in efficiently? Are boards not constant with their drag vs. weight carried? Are sails not constant lift to drag through the sizes?

One thing that does clearly favour heavier riders is the parasitic drag of their bodies. Cross sectional area only going up with mass to the power of 2/3. Heavier sailors can also smash though chop without getting bounced around as much.

Not simple, but the leverage factor weighs against heavier sailors due to the fact that a double weight sailor can't hold down a double sized sail.

the setting of the sail is skilled based, but pure speed is relative to force, more mass, more force, simple, more force, more speed, or potentially more acceleration, there is truly no merit or advantage to being lighter in terms of speed on a windsurfer, which is a measure of force, holding sails down doesnt mean much, its holding boards down, and thats where the mass comes into it

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Macroscien said..

..................

If the same proposal come Kato or Brad you will be screaming in the joy of pleasure.

....

Mmmm, let me think ...... mmmmm ..... nope.

If anyone (let alone Kato or Brad) suggested counting the number of gybes made is measured with a GPS I would assume they had recently hit the sand at 40 knots without a helmet

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Ian K said..

If you look at the righting moment of the sail vs. the righting moment of a rider you find that as the rider's weight and height go up the relative sized sail that can be counter balanced falls behind. This is because the sail size increases with the square of dimension. So as sail size increases the centre of effort goes up with the square root of sail size. Total righting moment of the sail goes up with the sail area to power of 1.5

This must be balanced by the increased righting moment of the heavier rider.

I did come with some idea recently to overcome the need to counter weight sail force.
That is possibly what smaller but skilled guys do already intuitive ( by alternating angle of attack - to verify this theory all we need is to compare mast angle vs waterline in two pictures for smaller guy and heavy lifter. If smaller guy tilt mast more towards the wind but for heavier mast remains more vertical my theory is right) .
Now it comes time to realize this small trick in further hardware design.
Instead of balancing opposing force vectors by body weight of the sailor alone the force should be transferred down to push the board deeper against water. Then we could deal with that by board design or in my new concept fin design.
My new fin concept incorporate small horizontal airfoil to counteract this downward forces. technical challenge in utilizing such concept is with ability of new fin to swivel instead of fixed mounted in power box.
If such design works sailor will not be limited by sail size and wind strength to some extend because the hardware ( board, fin and rig) takes most of the work by them self.
We could compare this to hydraulic power steering in modern cars - when you don't need to straggle any more to turn the wheels.

ha, if your gunna get crazy about it, well, you could just simply have outhaul, downhaul automated, and fin, all three constantly changing depending on force being measured by sail, and board deck, you could even have a sliding weight within in the board that moves up or down the board to help with accleration, ha, adjusting outhaul makes a good difference while sailing, i guess you could have that now done with a motor and you just press up, down button on boom to inch it mechanically,,,, or just go sailing and keep working on taking ownership of the many subtle factors that separate sailors ability, overall the sport is simple, to windsurf is simple, but to be a great sailor, well that is the result of years of mastering and building on many subtle factors, ha, the better i get at gyping, the more subtles just keep on appearing, im working through about twenty different little things that have been developed over time on the water, to do what is a simple move, the gype, ha, windsurfing is awesome, personally, i hope it just sorta stays the way it is, ha, ive got about another million things to figure out yet, good luck all

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KA360 said..

Hey Macro,can't resist bringing up my idea for the 7th category of speed I have brought up before- Knots/kg

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/7th-measurement-category-for-GPSTC-knotskg/?page=1

Sounds great to me! Anders video said the ideal stature for speed sailing is 6'3 and 100kgs.. bad luck if your 5'5 and 64kgs..

When will the magical 53.99 knots (100 km/h) be broken. Maybe next year& A A. Will probably break it.

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sboardcrazy said..

KA360 said..

Hey Macro,can't resist bringing up my idea for the 7th category of speed I have brought up before- Knots/kg

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/7th-measurement-category-for-GPSTC-knotskg/?page=1

Sounds great to me! Anders video said the ideal stature for speed sailing is 6'3 and 100kgs.. bad luck if your 5'5 and 64kgs..

NO doubt that weight divisions would be just as useful or even more useful that age divisions.
Height is important too. Being tall and heavy (muscular but lean) seems to be optimal.
It would be very interesting to work out a formula based on height, weight & speed.

For those engineers out there, we humans are nothing like a car where the power comes from a central engine. Sure heart size is important but the power comes from the muscles and that power is based on the cross sectional area of the muscle concerned. Big = more power. Then there is leverage where again big = more power.

I thick height & weight is only useful if you know how to use it.look at showboat (chris) hes one of the fastest sailors in the world pound for pound lets face it hes not exactly A.A. but lthink hes got the technique happening

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sailquik said..

Macroscien said..

KA360 said..

Hey Macro,can't resist bringing up my idea for the 7th category of speed I have brought up before- Knots/kg

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/7th-measurement-category-for-GPSTC-knotskg/?page=1

KA360 good idea but there is fundamental flow.

Power to weight ratio is much in the favor of the lighter sailor. In absence excess of wind the lighter wins hands down.
There is also another factor to consider. For lighter sailor to put a few kilos is just matter of few extra Suasages and beers or backpack,
for fat person to slim down is terrible torture

Your statement about power to weight ratio favoring lighter windsurfers is completely contrary to the overwhelming evidence when it comes to speed sailing. Come to think of it, it is even more contrary to the World Cup Slalom results where tall, heavy (and very skilled and fit) guys dominate.

In the absence of the really strong winds at Luderitz this year during the Pro weeks, the taller, heavier guys still dominated.

In fact, there was a certain sub-6ft, sub 80 KG young French lad that comprehensively out-sped a lot of much larger guys on the very windiest day while I was there. I might add on a day when I was very hesitant to make runs during the peak of the wind! (Gusting 50-60Kts)

www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=135649&uid=5203

That suggests that the smaller guys with lots of skill, confidence and experience (and extremely well tuned gear for their size) can do relatively better in the very strongest winds!

BTW. I calculate my speed to weight ratio after Luderitz is now 0.623. Gautier is on 0.642!!!

How does one measure this speed to weight ratio?

Select to expand quote

KevinD002 said..


How does one measure this speed to weight ratio?

Your top speed in knots divided by your weight in kg
eg. I have done 37.35 knots and I weigh 64kg
so 37.35 divided by 64 =0.583

The higher the number the better your skill

The holy grail of speedsurfing would be a 1.0 - 1 knot for every 1kg

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..


BTW. I calculate my speed to weight ratio after Luderitz is now 0.623. Gautier is on 0.642!!!

So I would have to beat 39.8 knots to be a better sailor than you.

Select to expand quote

KA360 said..

KevinD002 said..


How does one measure this speed to weight ratio?

Your top speed in knots divided by your weight in kg
eg. I have done 37.35 knots and I weigh 64kg
so 37.35 divided by 64 =0.583

The higher the number the better your skill

The holy grail of speedsurfing would be a 1.0 - 1 knot for every 1kg

sailquik said..


BTW. I calculate my speed to weight ratio after Luderitz is now 0.623. Gautier is on 0.642!!!

So I would have to beat 39.8 knots to be a better sailor than you.

Holly **** !! If that mean I need to hit 85 ktn ?? With my score 0.36 I have a lot of room for improvement
Even if that technically possible one may needs a lot of gutts to do so...

If speed riders have special harness lines to disconnect in the case of accident ? I can't imagine catapult at 50 ktn

Select to expand quote

Macroscien said..

KA360 said..

KevinD002 said..


How does one measure this speed to weight ratio?

Your top speed in knots divided by your weight in kg
eg. I have done 37.35 knots and I weigh 64kg
so 37.35 divided by 64 =0.583

The higher the number the better your skill

The holy grail of speedsurfing would be a 1.0 - 1 knot for every 1kg

sailquik said..


BTW. I calculate my speed to weight ratio after Luderitz is now 0.623. Gautier is on 0.642!!!

So I would have to beat 39.8 knots to be a better sailor than you.

Holly **** !! If that mean I need to hit 85 ktn ?? With my score 0.36 I have a lot of room for improvement
Even if that technically possible one may needs a lot of gutts to do so...

If speed riders have special harness lines to disconnect in the case of accident ? I can't imagine catapult at 50 ktn

For me the words of Everybody's Free (to Wear Sunscreen) apply to the idea of a speed per weight rating:
"Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind
The race is long and in the end, it's only with yourself"

Read more: Baz Luhrmann - Everybody's Free (to Wear Sunscreen) Lyrics | MetroLyrics

Select to expand quote

Ian K said..

Macroscien said..

sailquik said..

Taller and heavier actually means more power to weight ratio! The reason is because of leverage. The laws of physics are quite clear on that.

This is actually quite interesting/ intriguing topic that could be resolved in the cold , civilized manner .

Power ratio of smaller guy vs. heavier windsurfer (?)

But obviously not for me to participate Doesn't matter if I could come with right mathematical formula or false , both will be spitted in red...

Don't worry about red thumbs Macro, non-thinkers don't understand thinkers. (Maybe seabreeze should have a red thumb trading scheme, you get allocated 50 when you sign up and unless you collect them you run out?)

I disagree Sailquick, the physics is not clear. Sail design being similar across sizes we must first assume that for a given wind there's an optimum sheeting angle for best sail lift to drag. ie. the lift generated by the optimally sized sail, in the hands of a skillful rider, is proportional to the sail size. ( this may not be true, but it's a good place to start)

The drag of a hull though the water should, at first estimate, be proportional to the weight it's carrying.

If you look at the righting moment of the sail vs. the righting moment of a rider you find that as the rider's weight and height go up the relative sized sail that can be counter balanced falls behind. This is because the sail size increases with the square of dimension. So as sail size increases the centre of effort goes up with the square root of sail size. Total righting moment of the sail goes up with the sail area to power of 1.5

This must be balanced by the increased righting moment of the heavier rider. But his dimensions only go up with the cube root of weight.

So total righting moment of the rider is going up with his weight to the power of only 1.33.

It's pretty clear by the physics that for a given wind strength, sail size cannot increase linearly with rider mass. This is pretty clear on the water, you can often find someone half your weight sailing a 4.0 when your maxed out on a 6.0.

So what's going on? Do lighter sailors not sheet in efficiently? Are boards not constant with their drag vs. weight carried? Are sails not constant lift to drag through the sizes?

One thing that does clearly favour heavier riders is the parasitic drag of their bodies. Cross sectional area only going up with mass to the power of 2/3. Heavier sailors can also smash though chop without getting bounced around as much.

Not simple, but the leverage factor weighs against heavier sailors due to the fact that a double weight sailor can't hold down a double sized sail.

Hi Ian, I thought we might see you along in this thread soon. I know these are the sort of scientific questions you love to get your teeth into.

As to your analysis..........um.......you lost me somewhere there in the ... um....maths part.

Allow me to quote Slowy again from the original thread on speed to weight ratios:
( www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/7th-measurement-category-for-GPSTC-knotskg/?page=1 )

A question: Why would all of the fastest professional windsurfers in the world wear weight in speed competitions (even Dave White) if it wasnt an advantage?

I can think of two possible answers

1) they are all stupid
2) heavier is faster for them

Leverage is important for power/weight Weight is important for generating more leverage and for dynamic stability.

Both of these things help to make things more efficient if you are tuned.

For me, I have found consistently that adding weight makes me faster, as long as I can still hang on and feel balanced.