There should be one more category in our GPS Team challenge competition.

Amount of the gybes ( or tacks) made

Beach starts/ water starts doesn't counts.

Or even more complicated formula something like

amount of gybes (tacks) x average speed on the turn

For obvious reason nice , fast planing gybe is more "valuable " then making turns on the Starboard GO carrier.

Alphas and Hours come to mind.
Alphas measure your gybe speed
Hours measure (in part) to the amount of sucessful gybes completed and speed of those gybes.

To keep it simple: 5x alpha average like we do 5x10 sec , maybe alpha 250 metres instead of 500 to isolate more the turning section

No that is not the same.
You could do one turn in that day to have excellent alpha.
You could sail one hour in one direction on one tack.

Smooth and fast gybing is another skill that could be measured.

There is difference between sailor doing 1 of 20 gybes without landing in the water and another that stay dry for an hour or two.

If we could have category that shown clearly that you are able to do say

99 gybes at speed on 100 that means something for me.

That will be element of slalom racing incorporated into our GPS speed windsurfing.

We already have that category in the 1 hr.

All the best hours have many, many gybes. Before Lake George, one of my best at Sandy Point had 50 gybes!! And I stayed dry!

I don't know of any good ones that have less than a half dozen or so. Ok, maybe a couple from the Swan River would go close.

GPSTC: Don't mess with it, it ain't broken.

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sailquik said..

We already have that category in the 1 hr.

All the best hours have many, many gybes. Before Lake George, one of my best at Sandy Point had 50 gybes!! And I stayed dry!

I don't know of any good ones that have less than a half dozen or so. Ok, maybe a couple from the Swan River would go close.

GPSTC: Don't mess with it, it ain't broken.

well, it is not intended as messing up
it is just next cool thing that we could add one day to add more attraction to our challenge.
I do really appreciate those that could perform fast gybe without failure one after another.

there should be some rewards for those that could.

If we have competition that rewards sailing 100 km why not to reward those that do 100 gybes without falling down ?

Come up to Lake Cootharaba on Sunday Macro and test yourself in 1Hr with heap of crew sailing in the same conditions as you will be.
Stick your GPS card in our computer at the end of the day you will know where you stand on the scoreboard.
Do as many or as few gybes as you like!

macro have you heard the saying....if it aint broke dont try and fix it....

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ratz said..

macro have you heard the saying....if it aint broke dont try and fix it....

Have you heard about innovations ? evolution ? or still using rock hummer and bow with arrows ?

There is nothing wrong with GPS Challange ( I love it) but could be made even more exciting.
Nothing need to change but one more table with one more results.

Most of you guys have long runs going into many km. We have sometimes as short as few hundred meters.
Nothing else and better to do that practicing gybes on the chop or on the flat.
But doing 100 turn in row without falling could be as much exciting as making 10 km in straight line for others.

The question only for Dylan and other admins if they could create such a filter to recognize proper gybes from our track log.
Algorithm that calculate amount of consecutive gybes without falling and stops?

macro i think your avatar is correct you really are from another planet.

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Macroscien said..

You could sail one hour in one direction on one tack.

I gather you've never sailed for even 15minutes on one tack...try it one day and then make the same statement. Here's a 25minute per leg session I did recently just for perspective.
gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2013-10-07&team=20

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Macroscien said..

If we have competition that rewards sailing 100 km why not to reward those that do 100 gybes without falling down ?

Yes the GPS Team Challenge rewards those that sail fast and complete numerous gybes without falling in - it's called the Hour category. Nothing's stopping you from starting your own website "Macro's 100xGybe Team Challenge".

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Macroscien said...
No that is not the same.
You could do one turn in that day to have excellent alpha.
You could sail one hour in one direction on one tack.

An hour on one tack?! Somebody's not sailed hours before :-P

Changing subject slightly, but is there any reason why there is not a 500m category ?.

The alpha, one hour and distance really measure your ability to gybe. Obviously other factors also come into play, but you won't do well on any of those if you aren't good at gybing.

Actually the number of consecutive gybes without falls or stops would be interesting and challenging, and useful for those who are just mastering gybing to gauge their improvement. I lose track of how many I've done in a row. I can't count and sail

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bc said..

Changing subject slightly, but is there any reason why there is not a 500m category ?.

Simon,
I recall this was discussed previously and will try to hunt down the thread. My recollection was any distance measurement from time based devices (GPS) comes with inaccurracy - that's why we have time based categories i.e. 2sec 10sec 1hour. (Your Nm speed is never exactly 1852m either). Also I think adding an extra category to the data base that Nebs programmed comes with added complication (table formats etc). I personally can't think of an existing category that could be eliminated for a 500m category.

It is a valid question though so maybe we should discuss it in a new thread in lieu of this train wreck

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sausage said..

bc said..

Changing subject slightly, but is there any reason why there is not a 500m category ?.

Simon,
I recall this was discussed previously and will try to hunt down the thread. My recollection was any distance measurement from time based devices (GPS) comes with inaccurracy - that's why we have time based categories i.e. 2sec 10sec 1hour. (Your Nm speed is never exactly 1852m either). Also I think adding an extra category to the data base that Nebs programmed comes with added complication (table formats etc). I personally can't think of an existing category that could be eliminated for a 500m category.

It is a valid question though so maybe we should discuss it in a new thread in lieu of this train wreck

I knew somebody super clever like you would know the reason

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sausage said..

bc said..

Changing subject slightly, but is there any reason why there is not a 500m category ?.

Simon,
I recall this was discussed previously and will try to hunt down the thread. My recollection was any distance measurement from time based devices (GPS) comes with inaccurracy - that's why we have time based categories i.e. 2sec 10sec 1hour. (Your Nm speed is never exactly 1852m either). Also I think adding an extra category to the data base that Nebs programmed comes with added complication (table formats etc). I personally can't think of an existing category that could be eliminated for a 500m category.

It is a valid question though so maybe we should discuss it in a new thread in lieu of this train wreck

Spot on Sausage, with our current 1sec intervals at 25knots you're doing about 13m between measurements, so worse case scenario the 500m could only be 487m, and this is going to be different every run.
If it gets to the stage we all have 10hz units then maximum discrepancy will only be 1.3m.
This is probably acceptable, but still leaves the problem of which category to leave out.
Personally I'm more than happy with it as it is.
GP3S does keep track of 500m scores so if you don't want to set up your own database you can post there.

As for Macro's idea, yes some people might find it useful, but as above I wouldn't want it to replace any existing categories.
And from previous attempts to add/change how it is, Ben's not in favour of change and he's far to busy to do it.

I reckon that the GPS Team metrics we have now are pretty good and the alpha and 1 hour is a pretty good indicator of how your gybes are going.

Macro, you need clock up lots of sessions to understand your sailing and you will see there is lots to challenge you to give you an opportunity to improve.

I win!





Just kidding, I am sure that some mad guy down at Sandy Point has probably done tonnes more, and with LED lights to boot!

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FormulaNova said..

I win!





Just kidding, I am sure that some mad guy down at Sandy Point has probably done tonnes more, and with LED lights to boot!

Yep but I fell in twice

At LG I think I only stuffed up half a doz jibes for the 14 hrs but I did stop a few times

See what this LG season brings

there should be a distance travelled to sail category

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FormulaNova said..

I win!





Just kidding, I am sure that some mad guy down at Sandy Point has probably done tonnes more, and with LED lights to boot!

At least we have one in common, Formula, we both like gybing, I think. But again you in calm water I in a bit choppy

If proposed competition category require continuous non stop sailing and gibing then every stop or fall reset that daily counter.
Even slow down too much at that turn and counting starts from zero.
I understand that such category could be such stressful for some, so could be completely voluntary for those willing to participate.
Even more. This category could conflict with others so in order to achieve max score one may need to scarify ie distance , nautical mile etc.
Within our teams some may specialize then in some categories and other sailors may opt for gybing competition.




This is example I took yesterday. 1 hour constant sailing ( but one miss-heap when powered boat almost run me over and I duck into water in last second)

Current categories of the alpha and one hour cover most of what you are talking about. It's impossible to get a good result in either category without doing decent gybes and consistent sailing.

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Mobydisc said..

Current categories of the alpha and one hour cover most of what you are talking about. It's impossible to get a good result in either category without doing decent gybes and consistent sailing.

Alpha .
Good alpha means one good gybe. Done.
1Hour
As Sausage above shown 1 leg 25 minutes - either 5 minutes more and still one gybe ( even beach start will do the same at such distance).
That means that poor on not gyber at all could beat hands down gybe master doing 100 planing gybes at same time.

Why would you need a GPS to count how many gybes you do without falling in ?

Couldn't you just count them ?

Use 1 for the first one, 2 for the second, 3 for the third, 4 for the fourth, etc.

If need help with what comes after 4, then I am sure somebody here could publish a table right up say 999.

You may find it hard to memorise the right order to count in, but with a bit of practice I am sure you could master it.

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Carantoc said..

Why would you need a GPS to count how many gybes you do without falling in ?

Couldn't you just count them ?

Use 1 for the first one, 2 for the second, 3 for the third, 4 for the fourth, etc.

If need help with what comes after 4, then I am sure somebody here could publish a table right up say 999.

You may find it hard to memorise the right order to count in, but with a bit of practice I am sure you could master it.

Mathematical formula for proposed category

'gybes at speed'

both counts

Amount of successful continues gybes x averaged speed at gybe alone ( doesn't matter what you do between gybes 1 meter or 1 km distance or what speed between )

There is a lot of tactics ( and skills) involved to get the best results in this competition.

Example.

If you took big beginner board and starts spinning around - definitely you could crack hunderds without falling into water.
But your results will be very poor because when you do multiply each gybe by relevant speed factor.
Sum of all this will be low, you score poorly.

If you are great alpha sailor but distance between gybes too big total amount of gybes will again reflect poorly on your result.

To get good results you need to perform maximum number of gybes at best / optimal speed.

One wrong move, not even your fault - something like another sailor or kiter on the way and you may starts counting from scratch again .
Stressful ?

We can add additional requirements for gybe to count - say achieve planning speed between gybes - say 15 ktn min.

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Macroscien said..

Mobydisc said..

Current categories of the alpha and one hour cover most of what you are talking about. It's impossible to get a good result in either category without doing decent gybes and consistent sailing.

Alpha .
Good alpha means one good gybe. Done.
1Hour
As Sausage above shown 1 leg 25 minutes - either 5 minutes more and still one gybe ( even beach start will do the same at such distance).
That means that poor on not gyber at all could beat hands down gybe master doing 100 planing gybes at same time.

Sure, just jump on your board, sail out 500m or whatever it is, pull off a gybe and sail back. Alpha done. In reality people will do it 10 or 20 times and not stop once they get a good one.


If there was going to be a new category in the GPSTC, it would mean one of the existing ones would have to go. Which one would it be?

Anyway some windsurfers like to tack.

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Mobydisc said..

If there was going to be a new category in the GPSTC, it would mean one of the existing ones would have to go. Which one would it be?

Why is that ?

If there is not enough room on the web to add one more table with results for one more or even more competitions ?

There is nothing to change in existing program and our sailing habits.

New results are calculated for the same track log, pop up automatically into new table.

Say if you don't want to compete computer calculate that you managed to pull 5 gybes that day anyway then multiply each be averaged speed at turn and put your score. Nothing to change and unless somebody concentrate to get the highest score results could be mediocre. For some others pulling alphas now, score in this category appear already high without any additional effort.


One more catch. Some people do right turn some left good. None of those will show in alpha 500m.
In this category you better be prepared to do both turns well.

Hi Macro Just a reminder that as a member of the windwanderers club you have the opportunity to post your tracks to our online comp. We currently have 8 categories, 7 of which are different to the GPS team challenge (only one the same is the total distance). You are welcome to post any potential new categories/ideas/suggestions you have to our club website forum and members can decide/vote/consider if we want to implement this. Dylan loves a challenge as is always open to new ideas. You also have the chance to win great prizes at our end of season party. Everyone that uploads a file throughout the season is eligible to win.

I love the GPSTC but after 5 years of participating in the exact same categories it is great to try some new challenges including a 2 hr division, straight line (Sausage being the masters here [;)) 5m alpha 2 nm (Peter C the master of this category )etc and of course being able to have your own Kingdom! Only takes 1 more mouse click to then post your session from windwanderers to GPSTC (via KA72) simple and loads of fun! As well as our points based comp we still have our trophy room running each month which includes a 500m, 5x10 and challenge division. Check it out herehttp://www.windwanderers.org.au/Events/GPSSeries/TrophyRoom.aspx

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ka72 said..

Hi Macro Just a reminder that as a member of the windwanderers club you have the opportunity of post your tracks to our online comp. We currently have 8 categories, 7 of which are different to the GPS team challenge (only one the same is the total distance). You are welcome to post any potential new categories/ideas you have to our club website forum and members can decide/vote/consider if we want to implement this. Dylan loves a challenge as is always open to new ideas.

I love the GPSTC but after 5 years of participating in the exact same categories it is great to try some new challenges including a 2 hr division, straight line (Sausage being the masters here [;)) 5m alpha 2 nm (Peter C the master of this category )etc and of course being able to have your own Kingdom! Only takes 1 more mouse click to then post your session from windwanderers to GPSTC (via KA72) simple and loads of fun! As well as our points based comp we still have our trophy room running each month which includes a 500m, 5x10 and challenge division. Check it out herehttp://www.windwanderers.org.au/Events/GPSSeries/TrophyRoom.aspx

I love the idea , sure, nobody is forced to compete but if we find a number of members willing to participate in this or another competition why not to try ?
If idea will catch up whole world will look at Aussie pioneers and will participate or imitate similar competition.
Thank you KA72.
BTW I didn't promoted this idea just because I am master gyber and needs to improve my individual score in the rankings.

There are plenty of talented sailors that really should be / could be proud of their gybing skills but so far don't have obvious means to show it to the world.

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kato said..

FormulaNova said..

I win!

Just kidding, I am sure that some mad guy down at Sandy Point has probably done tonnes more, and with LED lights to boot!

Yep but I fell in twice

At LG I think I only stuffed up half a doz jibes for the 14 hrs but I did stop a few times

See what this LG season brings

Hey, how did you know I was talking about you? Fell in twice? Okay, you are now removed from my heroes in windsurfing chart!

That day in Safety Bay that is shown on the picture, I got so sick of gybing. It was like "oh, another gybe", "another gybe", "another gybe". I think I need to get out of the pond and find some rougher water.

I think sailing in Sandy Point has an inbuilt reason to not fall in. Has anyone else noticed that the water down there is cold or is it just me? In Safety Bay, you want to jump in after a while just to cool down.

I need to dream up a category I could win, but I think I would be flat out thinking of something so artificial. What about for the person that talks the most on Seabreeze?