My offer to Dylan to have a look at his oao importer/filter stands.

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JulienLe said..
"Julien and everybody else says, the motion files work fine with all other software."

Ignore XBraun54 / Jan Hendrik de Bruin from GP3S up here. He's moody for other reasons.

Thank you for confirming my post "The easiest way to solve a problem is to deny it exist..."

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Xbraun54 said..
Thank you for confirming my post "The easiest way to solve a problem is to deny it exist..."

Nobody is denying there's a problem, just that the problem is probably not Julien's

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tbwonder said..
Well if there is no plan to get to the bottom of this quickly then I suggest that a note is put on GPSTC to suggest to people not to post using Motions with KA72. There are plenty of alternatives.

OK done, good idea

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tbwonder said..

decrepit said..
Julien says, the motion files work fine with all other software, and Dylan says all other hardware works fine in KA72. Where is the incentive for either of them to disrupt their busy schedule, get together and work out just what is happening.

Well if there is no plan to get to the bottom of this quickly then I suggest that a note is put on GPSTC to suggest to people not to post using Motions with KA72. There are plenty of alternatives.

I thought we has already said that? (Check your KA72 results with other software as they may be incorrect)

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Xbraun54 said..

JulienLe said..
"Julien and everybody else says, the motion files work fine with all other software."

Ignore XBraun54 / Jan Hendrik de Bruin from GP3S up here. He's moody for other reasons.

Thank you for confirming my post "The easiest way to solve a problem is to deny it exist..."

This is Bull**** Xbroun54.

All the other analysis software programs, including GPS-Results which GPS-SS uses, get the correct results. It is only KA72 which is getting it wrong.

It is very clear that the problem exists within KA72 - Period. You clearly have an ulterior motive for this misinformation attack. It's beneath you.

I wear a GW60 for on the water feedback but upload from mini-motion through KA72, later I analyse how I could have done better with GPSResults. So far I haven't seen any significant discrepancies.

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sailquik said..

Xbraun54 said..

JulienLe said..
"Julien and everybody else says, the motion files work fine with all other software."

Ignore XBraun54 / Jan Hendrik de Bruin from GP3S up here. He's moody for other reasons.

Thank you for confirming my post "The easiest way to solve a problem is to deny it exist..."

This is Bull**** Xbroun54.

All the other analysis software programs, including GPS-Results which GPS-SS uses, get the correct results. It is only KA72 which is getting it wrong.

It is very clear that the problem exists within KA72 - Period. You clearly have an ulterior motive for this misinformation attack. It's beneath you.

No need to get offensive @sailquick.... we have some interesting examples of motion data with errors, but based on the very open and constructive feedback regarding questions posted here (and also earlier) not so keen to share them :) But hey, you got to believe what you believe i guess... don't get me wrong, the Motion is a very good device (if you can get one....) , but it's always possible to have room for improvements.... and yes also with GPS-Results we have seen issues, so it's not fair to put all the blame on KA72 it think....

Manfred (GPSResults) reached out to me before Luderitz for a small display issue of negative altitudes and it was fixed in hours. He didn't mention anything else.

I'm sure we'd all like to see these logs. It'll improve the devices for everyone.

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Xbraun54 said..
A bit confused to read this, the fact that this seems to be a known error since september and Julien is already working on a solution for this (that's good ...i think ??) is a bit dissapointing.

You are barking up the wrong tree. There's no indication that the problem is due to the Motion. He has also looked into this issue, but he cannot fix it because the problem in NOT in the Motion firmware. Besides GPSResults and GPS Speedreader, GPS Action Replay Pro also gives the correct results with this file. But the absolute indication that this is a ka72 problem is that ka72 reports a (correct) 100 m speed that is higher than the 2 second speeds. That is not possible in windsurfing (it would require a 1 second speed above 50 m/s, or ~ 100 knots). That proves that ka72.com can read the file just fine, but can not calculate the top speed correctly for this file.

It is quite common for software bugs to show up with only certain data. When that happens, a software developer should thank the person reporting the problem, and use the data to fix the issue. In this case, the software developer is Dylan, not Julien.

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Xbraun54 said..
We have seen previous "glitches" with Motions before and the only strategy around them seems to be to deny issues like hell , no transparency and after a software inprovement (why on earth????) present it like a non issue.....don"t get me wrong, there is no device on earth that's 100% but just be open about it .....

Every software will have bugs. What matters is how a software developer reacts to bug reports. The only thing I have seen when there were problems with the Motion firmware was that the bugs were fixed very quickly.

It is quite obvious that you hold grudges against Julien. Perhaps you have good reasons, but that is no excuse to attack him on a matter that is clearly not Julien's problem. I may not agree with Julien on some things, but in this case, he's gone above and beyond just by looking into this issue, even though all indications are that this is a ka72 problem. But he can't fix problems in the code that runs ka72.com.

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Xbraun54 said..

No need to get offensive @sailquick.... we have some interesting examples of motion data with errors, but based on the very open and constructive feedback regarding questions posted here (and also earlier) not so keen to share them :) But hey, you got to believe what you believe i guess... don't get me wrong, the Motion is a very good device (if you can get one....) , but it's always possible to have room for improvements.... and yes also with GPS-Results we have seen issues, so it's not fair to put all the blame on KA72 it think....

Sailquik was not offensive, he just called out bull**** when he saw it. I use GPSResults and have never had an issue with analysis of Motion logs. The only issue I've had has been analysis of Motion logs on KA72.

I, like many I am sure, use KA72 with their Motion files as it is the easiest method as all is handled simply on the phone. As I am not 'playing for sheep stations' with my results, I will probably just keep uploading to GPSTC through KA72, unless of course, I see the possibility of a PB or an out of the expected result. Then I would usually forward that file to a team member for scrutiny. In view of the above discussion, does this sound reasonable?

Mikey,
Personally I would stop using KA72 until this issue is fully understood. Although the reported cases so far have shown to be lower speeds in KA72, who is to say that some speeds may be over reported.
Best to play safe.

I find it hard to see how the peak 2sec speeds can be wrong, it is the easiest calculation of all.

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tbwonder said..
Mikey,
Personally I would stop using KA72 until this issue is fully understood. Although the reported cases so far have shown to be lower speeds in KA72, who is to say that some speeds may be over reported.
Best to play safe.

I find it hard to see how the peak 2sec speeds can be wrong, it is the easiest calculation of all.

Ok Andrew, thanks. Looks like I better fire up the laptop, download Speed Reader, and learn how to use it. my brain hurts already.

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mikey100 said..
Ok Andrew, thanks. Looks like I better fire up the laptop, download Speed Reader, and learn how to use it. my brain hurts already.

Don't stress Mikey. It's an excellent and very easily used piece of software.

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mikey100 said..

tbwonder said..
Mikey,
Personally I would stop using KA72 until this issue is fully understood. Although the reported cases so far have shown to be lower speeds in KA72, who is to say that some speeds may be over reported.
Best to play safe.

I find it hard to see how the peak 2sec speeds can be wrong, it is the easiest calculation of all.

Ok Andrew, thanks. Looks like I better fire up the laptop, download Speed Reader, and learn how to use it. my brain hurts already.

Shock horror. I did it. And posted to GPSTC.
WELL DONE ME!

Here's my last few sessions where I uploaded through KA72 compared with GPSResults. Three sessions identical to the third decimal place, the last one out by 0.2kn.

If any one wants to download that last log, or get me to send it, to see what is different, be my guest.

Date GPSResults KA72
5/12/2021 36.447 36.447
30/11/21 34.868 34.868
29/11/21 34.718 34.718
10/11/21 32.099 31.827

Here's a session from today where ka72.com shows wrong results: www.ka72.com/Track/t/483326
The giveaway is a 100 m speed that's higher than the 2 second peak. A 100 m run at 32 knots takes about 6 seconds, and therefore must contain a 2 second segment that is at least as fast (and, in reality, always faster).

This time, the 2 second error is less than 1 knot, but the ka72 understates 5x10 by more than 5 knots:
GPS Action Replay gives the same 5x10. I have not checked with GPSResults, but I bet it agrees with GPSAR and Speedreader.

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remery said..
Here's my last few sessions where I uploaded through KA72 compared with GPSResults. Three sessions identical to the third decimal place, the last one out by 0.2kn.

If any one wants to download that last log, or get me to send it, to see what is different, be my guest.

Date GPSResults KA72
5/12/2021 36.447 36.447
30/11/21 34.868 34.868
29/11/21 34.718 34.718
10/11/21 32.099 31.827

Sorry if I have wasted everyone's time, I just had another look and now KA72 and GPSResults are identical to four decimal places. I might have transcribed something incorrectly or KA72 made some adjustments.

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boardsurfr said..
Here's a session from today where ka72.com shows wrong results: www.ka72.com/Track/t/483326
The giveaway is a 100 m speed that's higher than the 2 second peak. A 100 m run at 32 knots takes about 6 seconds, and therefore must contain a 2 second segment that is at least as fast (and, in reality, always faster).

This time, the 2 second error is less than 1 knot, but the ka72 understates 5x10 by more than 5 knots:
GPS Action Replay gives the same 5x10. I have not checked with GPSResults, but I bet it agrees with GPSAR and Speedreader.

It looks to me like your mini-motion track has only 10 points whereas mine has 20.

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remery said..

It looks to me like your mini-motion track has only 10 points whereas mine has 20.

He has it set to log five times a second rather than 10 times a second
So a 2 sec peak is 10 points rather than 20.

Which does raise an interesting point. The errors I am seeing are when using a mini motion at 5 Hz. Is this the issue?
Are other people seeing the error at 5hz logging or 10hz logging?

Could it be that KA72 is looking for 20 data points and averaging them rather than only using 10, when logging is set to 5hz?
Although if this was the case the 2sec speeds would never be correct.

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tbwonder said..
Could it be that KA72 is looking for 20 data points and averaging them rather than only using 10, when logging is set to 5hz?
Although if this was the case the 2sec speeds would never be correct.

ka72 supports all kinds of devices and rates, including watches that record at rates below 1 Hz. In the past, it had no problems with my 5 hz Motion data, and still handles at least some Motion data without problems (I checked this track from today: www.ka72.com/Track/t/483374, and ka72 gets the same results as Speedreader).

Yes most of my 5hz tracks are correct as well. But it would be interesting to see if all the problems are on 5hz or if sometimes it happens at 10z as well

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tbwonder said..

remery said..

It looks to me like your mini-motion track has only 10 points whereas mine has 20.

He has it set to log five times a second rather than 10 times a second
So a 2 sec peak is 10 points rather than 20.

Which does raise an interesting point. The errors I am seeing are when using a mini motion at 5 Hz. Is this the issue?
Are other people seeing the error at 5hz logging or 10hz logging?

Could it be that KA72 is looking for 20 data points and averaging them rather than only using 10, when logging is set to 5hz?
Although if this was the case the 2sec speeds would never be correct.

Sounds like you guys are making some progress on this issue,
With the Motion can the user set 5 or 10hz or is this set within the device firmware ?
I know with GW60 user selects to set to 5hz

The rate can be set in the setting menu

10Hz (with Galileo) is available again in firmwares >= #3038. It's a redo of firmware #3007's core which was more accurate than recent 10Hz (without Galileo) firmwares. Please don't shout on top of roofs about it yet, I'd like its adoption to be progressive. The plan is to ask everyone to upgrade mid-January, along with the other upgrades, if no issues are revealed. So far so good.

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JulienLe said..
10Hz (with Galileo) is available again in firmwares >= #3038. It's a redo of firmware #3007's core which was more accurate than recent 10Hz (without Galileo) firmwares. Please don't shout on top of roofs about it yet, I'd like its adoption to be progressive. The plan is to ask everyone to upgrade mid-January, along with the other upgrades, if no issues are revealed. So far so good.

Hi. Just read this above-"10Hz (with Galileo) is available again in firmwares >= #3038."
I am trialing the 3038 firmware on a mini but in the settings it only shows "10Hz WITHOUT Galileo".
am I missing something?

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tbwonder said..

remery said..

It looks to me like your mini-motion track has only 10 points whereas mine has 20.

He has it set to log five times a second rather than 10 times a second
So a 2 sec peak is 10 points rather than 20.

Which does raise an interesting point. The errors I am seeing are when using a mini motion at 5 Hz. Is this the issue?
Are other people seeing the error at 5hz logging or 10hz logging?

Could it be that KA72 is looking for 20 data points and averaging them rather than only using 10, when logging is set to 5hz?
Although if this was the case the 2sec speeds would never be correct.

I suppose if KA72 throws a couple of points out for some reason, the impact on the 10 points in the 2sec will be greater than the 31 points in the 100m, which might leave the latter higher. I don't have GPSResults at work but looking at the KML it seems the 100m overlaps about half of the 2sec run.

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tbwonder said..
The rate can be set in the setting menu

Thank you Andrew, I see it