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decrepit said..
Interesting that the F7 is in sync with the motions, but the 255 has that delay

The delay is a funny one as it is sometimes present and sometimes not on both the FR and fenix. I have also seen the delay change mid-session, although that is really quite rare.

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remery said..
I don't mind a random +/- error of 0.3 knots or so. Systematic errors of 1.0 knots+ ruins the challenge.

I suspect this is true for most people, hence the acceptance of these newer watches and the rejection of the older ones.

My second GW60 band is held together with inner tube patches, super glue and cable ties.

I've seen a few like that, I'm sure some of them are now on the bottom of the estuary somewhere!

In response to K888's statement:
"The most robust measure is the 5 x 10 seconds because any discrepencies will often be averaged out."
would it also be true that a 500m speed would be more accurately measured than a 2 second speed and should we add this to the GPSTC criteria (and maybe remove the 2 sec speed if need to just have 6 parameters, particularly if it's a measurement more prone to errors) seeing as it's used in the measurement of world records?

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TopcatRacing said..
In response to K888's statement:
"The most robust measure is the 5 x 10 seconds because any discrepencies will often be averaged out."
would it also be true that a 500m speed would be more accurately measured than a 2 second speed and should we add this to the GPSTC criteria (and maybe remove the 2 sec speed if need to just have 6 parameters, particularly if it's a measurement more prone to errors) seeing as it's used in the measurement of world records?

I am going back a LONG way now and stretching my memory a bit, and I am sure there are others who were present at the time who can fill in further details.

But think 500m as a category in the Team Challenge was rejected in favour of the 10 secs for a number of reasons.

Firstly, when GPS-SS begun, we could only measure time accurately. Some of the GPS devices recorded only once every 2 seconds. Looking at individual points, even @ 1 second showed up large discrepancies between points. Remember that results were only recorded using position back then (Pre Doppler) and it was subject to a large amount of error. So they decided that their rankings would be best based on at least a 10 second run, and then averaged over the 5 runs which should give a reasonably realistic number and cancel out a lot of possible errors. I think this was a very astute decision! .

It's worth noting that at the very beginning there was not even any analysis software as we know it today! You didn't have to resort to working it out with a pencil and paper, but it wasn't much more sophisticated.

RealSpeed (Mal Wright) and GPSAR (Yann Mathet) were the very first software analysis programs that appeared a few months later, followed by GPS-Results (Manfred Fuchs) a little later again.

The GPS-TC was set up a bit over a year later and discussions were held about what categories to use. Because conditions and opportunities vary so much over the venues in Australia, it was logical to have a pretty wide range of categories.

The 2 sec max speed has always been of great interest to sailors, despite it being arguably the least accurate. It's the first thing most sailors look at and what they brag about to their mates. It's a lot of fun. .

The 5 x 10 sec was included as it was a very good gauge of overall speed performance, and as mentioned above, it has the great effect of reducing any errors in the GPS.

Distance was included, for fairly obvious reasons. We all like to see how far we can sail and in places where high speeds are not commonly available, it gave a category alternative for some teams to be more competitive.

Alpha 500 was included as it is a just a very fun thing to strive for and could be done at almost any venue. It has proven to be a very popular category.

1Hour was included as the whole idea was to encourage people to sail more and together. It has also turned out to be a popular category, and very different challenge from outright speed.

Nautical Mile was included as it is again quite a different challenge, and some venues had the possibility of running a straight NM, unlike some of the venues which had a potential advantage on top speeds and 10 seconds, but were not long enough for the NM.(Like Sandy Point for example, which in those days was dominating top speeds)

As I recall it, 500m was discussed and rejected because the 10 seconds run is around 250-300m and that distance for a speed run is accessible at a LOT more venues, and already included in the 5 x 10 sec division. Also, it was virtually impossible to get an exact 500m in the early days with 1 or 2 second recording. The runs would always end up longer to hit a full second. later on, the software guys included interpolation in their analysis programs, but really wasn't until we got 10Hz recording that we could get very close to measuring the 500m reasonably accurately. (It was deemed that for the NM, as discrepancy of the added few meters didn't really make much difference.)

The other important thing to remember is that the GPSTC is primarily a Team competition. One of the most fundamental, and great things about it is that it aimed to get people together and foster social interaction. The results that count are averaged over the two best sailor results in the team on the day. And over all the categories, this has the effect of cancelling out small errors in all the categories, including the 2 sec Max.

In my Humble opinion, the creation of the GPSTC community is one of the greatest things that has happened in the windsurfing world, especially in Australia, and is a great credit to Joseph, who came up with the whole brilliant concept, and Ben, who volunteered to make it a reality by building the website. IMHO, these two guys deserve and AOA!

That's how I remember it Andrew,
I see no need for 500, even if we can measure it with our 10hz devices, we've just approved a 1hz device!
500m is good for a measured course, but not so much for a timed course.

I remember when the GPSTC started, it took some people to realise that a GPS competition was a different kettle of fish.
The expected it to simulate ordinary racing. There really was no need for it to do that, and come up with something suboptimal.
Instead it was designed to use the differences in GPS timing to it's best advantage.

I think the categories and rules are extraordinarily well thought out and have stood the test of time. Every now and then I have a thought bubble as to how the competition could be improved, but with a little more thinking I realise my idea wouldn't work.

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sailquik said..

In my Humble opinion, the creation of the GPSTC community is one of the greatest things that has happened in the windsurfing world, especially in Australia, and is a great credit to Joseph, who came up with the whole brilliant concept, and Ben, who volunteered to make it a reality by building the website. IMHO, these two guys deserve and AOA!

What I would prefer instead of recognition is some Marnee, Ka-ching, Greenbacks, Euros, some more bread man, some buckaroos, some spondulicks, dosh or dough, even some shekels, or a bit of boodle will do, or maybe even a bit of bitcoin? The AOA Medal for Meritorious Service is of little value to me as it will not facilitate the purchase of any new toys! Ps. I owe windsurfing more than I could ever do for the sport. I just gave a tiny bit back!!

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hardie said..

What I would prefer instead of recognition is some Marnee, Ka-ching, Greenbacks, Euros, some more bread man, some buckaroos, some spondulicks, dosh or dough, even some shekels, or a bit of boodle will do, or maybe even a bit of bitcoin? The AOA Medal for Meritorious Service is of little value to me as it will not facilitate the purchase of any new toys! Ps. I owe windsurfing more than I could ever do for the sport. I just gave a tiny bit back!!

Why didn't you tell us sooner Hardie. Please send you name, address, bank account details, and passwords and I'll have the money wired from Nigeria. Many thanks for you service!

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decrepit said..
There's another aspect to this, that isn't readily shown up in our testing.
When I do my tests, I wear the reference device in the best place for the test.
Not all sailors do this, I've seen devises worn in the most inappropriate way, GT31s on the chest, motions slipped down to underarm. At least with watches, the position doesn't change. I don't think the wrist is the most accurate place to wear a device, but it's heaps better than under the arm or on the chest.

Yes I'd like it better if it was 10hz, (gives better 2s and alphas) and had an accuracy readout.
As long as you don't put any over it, like wetsuit sleeve. the accuracy will be good enough for our purposes.

So what happened with all the speed accuracy stuff (sAcc) ??? No need for this anymore ? by my knowledge the Garmin watches don't provide this.... always had the impression this was a key factor for GPTSC ???

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Roo said..

hardie said..

What I would prefer instead of recognition is some Marnee, Ka-ching, Greenbacks, Euros, some more bread man, some buckaroos, some spondulicks, dosh or dough, even some shekels, or a bit of boodle will do, or maybe even a bit of bitcoin? The AOA Medal for Meritorious Service is of little value to me as it will not facilitate the purchase of any new toys! Ps. I owe windsurfing more than I could ever do for the sport. I just gave a tiny bit back!!

Why didn't you tell us sooner Hardie. Please send you name, address, bank account details, and passwords and I'll have the money wired from Nigeria. Many thanks for you service!

I actually got scammed the other day, I got careless, but I trust you Roo, so I have sent you all my private details.

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hardie said..

Roo said..

hardie said..

What I would prefer instead of recognition is some Marnee, Ka-ching, Greenbacks, Euros, some more bread man, some buckaroos, some spondulicks, dosh or dough, even some shekels, or a bit of boodle will do, or maybe even a bit of bitcoin? The AOA Medal for Meritorious Service is of little value to me as it will not facilitate the purchase of any new toys! Ps. I owe windsurfing more than I could ever do for the sport. I just gave a tiny bit back!!

Why didn't you tell us sooner Hardie. Please send you name, address, bank account details, and passwords and I'll have the money wired from Nigeria. Many thanks for you service!

I actually got scammed the other day, I got careless, but I trust you Roo, so I have sent you all my private details.

Would $100,000 RooDesian (I think it may be called Zimbabwe now) dollars be enough to tide you over? My Nigerian uncle (Mr. Hotentott) will send it out later today. Feel free to share the wealth around Man and Woman Durah!

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Roo said..

hardie said..

Roo said..

hardie said..

What I would prefer instead of recognition is some Marnee, Ka-ching, Greenbacks, Euros, some more bread man, some buckaroos, some spondulicks, dosh or dough, even some shekels, or a bit of boodle will do, or maybe even a bit of bitcoin? The AOA Medal for Meritorious Service is of little value to me as it will not facilitate the purchase of any new toys! Ps. I owe windsurfing more than I could ever do for the sport. I just gave a tiny bit back!!

Why didn't you tell us sooner Hardie. Please send you name, address, bank account details, and passwords and I'll have the money wired from Nigeria. Many thanks for you service!

I actually got scammed the other day, I got careless, but I trust you Roo, so I have sent you all my private details.

Would $100,000 RooDesian (I think it may be called Zimbabwe now) dollars be enough to tide you over? My Nigerian uncle (Mr. Hotentott) will send it out later today. Feel free to share the wealth around Man and Woman Durah!

How much windsurfing gear will that buy me?

Better get back onto the GPSTC Garmin issue. As I am replacing Decrepit on the Advisory Committee, as long as the techs say it will give valid results then I'm all for it, as my original intention was for the GPSTC was inclusiveness, so we dont want to be excluding people because there arent enough approved GPS devices available.

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CarlosSainz said..>So what happened with all the speed accuracy stuff (sAcc) ??? No need for this anymore ? by my knowledge the Garmin watches don't provide this.... always had the impression this was a key factor for GPTSC ???

Answering somebody that's just trying to find fault is a pointless exercise, so this is all you'll get from me.
I'm quitting now anyway.
Somebody else may deign to take it up

Thank you for your hard, and sometimes unappreciated, work Decrepit.

Yes thank you for all the work you have done Mike, GPSTC is the best thing to happen to windsurfing in a long time and a happy new year to you and Dot.

..

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CarlosSainz said..

decrepit said..
There's another aspect to this, that isn't readily shown up in our testing.
When I do my tests, I wear the reference device in the best place for the test.
Not all sailors do this, I've seen devises worn in the most inappropriate way, GT31s on the chest, motions slipped down to underarm. At least with watches, the position doesn't change. I don't think the wrist is the most accurate place to wear a device, but it's heaps better than under the arm or on the chest.

Yes I'd like it better if it was 10hz, (gives better 2s and alphas) and had an accuracy readout.
As long as you don't put any over it, like wetsuit sleeve. the accuracy will be good enough for our purposes.

So what happened with all the speed accuracy stuff (sAcc) ??? No need for this anymore ? by my knowledge the Garmin watches don't provide this.... always had the impression this was a key factor for GPTSC ???

Really, that's all you have gotten from this topic!

Given I'm volunteering to get back onto the GPSTC Admin, let me tell you where I'll be coming from.

My philosophy is more about pragmatism, and not idealism. Do what works most of the time and for the most people. This I know can be very frustrating for the idealists.

I believe you need to have data integrity or the data base of our speeds and records is meaningless. I know the technical committee has worked really hard over the years in trying to maintain data integrity standards, and I have a lot of trust in our tech/data guys. Anyone that expects 100% perfection in any endeavour involving humans is being unrealistic. The Garmin decision is about pragmatism.

Next the GPSTC is about building community, belonging, inclusiveness and last of all a healthy way to have fun, this is the main reason I developed a team based competition. That to me is the best part, not the data, its the friendships, the community, the travel, the belonging.

Re the negativity that gets thrown at the GPSTC = Firstly Yes OK its just another part of life, I'll just have to suck it up. 2nd we arent playing for sheep stations. 3rd maybe the critics could have a go at setting up a new web based wsurf competition and get a feel for whats involved and how its impossible to please 100% of people 100% of the time, and if you somehow create a roaring success then thats brilliant if the windsurfing community benefits from it. 4th the GPSTC is basically like all humans = it is imperfect, and it has its flaws. 5th Overall the feedback I've been given over the last 18 years is that its pretty special, and has made a positive difference to many peoples lives. 6th Dont fix what isnt broken. Some things need to change and evolve because when we know better we can do better. Somethings are like the traditions that are worth keeping forever. Maybe just maybe, the GPSTC falls into a tradition that benefits most of the people most of the time and needs to be left alone??

Garmin models as stipulated here = all good!

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CarlosSainz said..

So what happened with all the speed accuracy stuff (sAcc) ??? No need for this anymore ? by my knowledge the Garmin watches don't provide this.... always had the impression this was a key factor for GPTSC ???

I will have a go at answering this one hopefully in simple terms

Firstly to my knowledge the rules of GPSTC have never specified that error data is required.

The "accuracy stuff" or "error data" is the only way to actually measure the accuracy of our GPS data. Up until recently this has been our only tool for filtering out spikes caused by poor signals or reflected signals. It is still the gold standard as far as GPSTC is concerned.

However the new GPS Chips being used in some Garmin watches (255 and 255 music) are able to simultaneously measure the doppler speeds using different frequencies. Software in the watch is then able to automatically correct spikes and reflections. It is not a perfect system, but extensive testing by a group of GPSTC members (I was one of them) has proven to the Advisory panel that it is sufficiently accurate for needs of a friendly competition such as GPSTC.

Older Garmin watches remain unsuitable.

I really loved the GPSTC in the beginning. Reading the days seshes from all over the country. In fact I still do but feel it's dropped off a bit (dang you winter)
I made a team and now we have only 3 devices being used but more team members on the water unable to contribute. Our team, would love to see a sport or supporters section. Mark them in red or the team with an asterisk se we are identified and non competitive. Its near impossible to get a suitable device but we can readily get a
device. Let's get to old days back where the buzz was so loud and fun, group fun. I have no programming back ground and the crew keeping the site up and glitch free are hero's to our community. I will Continue to post and really don't want to change teams but also really want my team back up and frothing on the keyboard after a sesh.
cheers TC crew

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hardie said..
Given I'm volunteering to get back onto the GPSTC Admin, let me tell you where I'll be coming from.

My philosophy is more about pragmatism, and not idealism. Do what works most of the time and for the most people. This I know can be very frustrating for the idealists.

I believe you need to have data integrity or the data base of our speeds and records is meaningless. I know the technical committee has worked really hard over the years in trying to maintain data integrity standards, and I have a lot of trust in our tech/data guys. Anyone that expects 100% perfection in any endeavour involving humans is being unrealistic. The Garmin decision is about pragmatism.

Next the GPSTC is about building community, belonging, inclusiveness and last of all a healthy way to have fun, this is the main reason I developed a team based competition. That to me is the best part, not the data, its the friendships, the community, the travel, the belonging.

Re the negativity that gets thrown at the GPSTC = Firstly Yes OK its just another part of life, I'll just have to suck it up. 2nd we arent playing for sheep stations. 3rd maybe the critics could have a go at setting up a new web based wsurf competition and get a feel for whats involved and how its impossible to please 100% of people 100% of the time, and if you somehow create a roaring success then thats brilliant if the windsurfing community benefits from it. 4th the GPSTC is basically like all humans = it is imperfect, and it has its flaws. 5th Overall the feedback I've been given over the last 18 years is that its pretty special, and has made a positive difference to many peoples lives. 6th Dont fix what isnt broken. Some things need to change and evolve because when we know better we can do better. Somethings are like the traditions that are worth keeping forever. Maybe just maybe, the GPSTC falls into a tradition that benefits most of the people most of the time and needs to be left alone??

Garmin models as stipulated here = all good!

Great post wise one

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decrepit said..

CarlosSainz said..>So what happened with all the speed accuracy stuff (sAcc) ??? No need for this anymore ? by my knowledge the Garmin watches don't provide this.... always had the impression this was a key factor for GPTSC ???

Answering somebody that's just trying to find fault is a pointless exercise, so this is all you'll get from me.
I'm quitting now anyway.
Somebody else may deign to take it up

Thank you for all the work you have done over the years Mike

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tbwonder said..

CarlosSainz said..

So what happened with all the speed accuracy stuff (sAcc) ??? No need for this anymore ? by my knowledge the Garmin watches don't provide this.... always had the impression this was a key factor for GPTSC ???

I will have a go at answering this one hopefully in simple terms

Thanks, this makes it completely understandable for me, so let's look ahead now !

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TopcatRacing said..
In response to K888's statement:
"The most robust measure is the 5 x 10 seconds because any discrepencies will often be averaged out."
would it also be true that a 500m speed would be more accurately measured than a 2 second speed and should we add this to the GPSTC criteria (and maybe remove the 2 sec speed if need to just have 6 parameters, particularly if it's a measurement more prone to errors) seeing as it's used in the measurement of world records?

A lot of locations have patchy wind . Sometimes you'd be lucky to have consistent strong wind for 500m.

Ok. Have been using my mini Motion with the 245music (for on water feedback) happily for quite a few years. Both are surely getting close to 'end-of-life', so just purchased a 255music. As I am a technical bonehead, is there a 'setup 101' anywhere that I can follow step by step to commission my new 255 into use.
Sorry, I seriously have read the complete thread but couldn't find anything.
Cheers.

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mikey100 said..
Ok. Have been using my mini Motion with the 245music (for on water feedback) happily for quite a few years. Both are surely getting close to 'end-of-life', so just purchased a 255music. As I am a technical bonehead, is there a 'setup 101' anywhere that I can follow step by step to commission my new 255 into use.
Sorry, I seriously have read the complete thread but couldn't find anything.
Cheers.

Have you tried Andrews instructions as per below link Mikey, maybe we need to arrange a meeting place and all do them together
www.haigh.id.au/Instructions%20for%20use%20GPSTC%20Approved.pdf

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tonyk said..

mikey100 said..
Ok. Have been using my mini Motion with the 245music (for on water feedback) happily for quite a few years. Both are surely getting close to 'end-of-life', so just purchased a 255music. As I am a technical bonehead, is there a 'setup 101' anywhere that I can follow step by step to commission my new 255 into use.
Sorry, I seriously have read the complete thread but couldn't find anything.
Cheers.

Have you tried Andrews instructions as per below link Mikey, maybe we need to arrange a meeting place and all do them together
www.haigh.id.au/Instructions%20for%20use%20GPSTC%20Approved.pdf

Thanks Tony. That's the link I need. ??

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tonyd said..
Have just sent you guys some Garmin Forerunner 965 / Motions files for comparison hope this helps

I just sent some files of my 965 vs Motion for a 1.5 hour bike ride I did today. Sent them to the info GPSTC address. I hope the 965 is looking good for acceptance by the GPSTC soon.

I was just going to have a look at them, but you've made it very hard. The motion files are dated, but the fit files aren't. I can only look at one session at a time, so I have to match the dates. At the moment I don't have time to try and sort them, sorry.

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decrepit said..
I was just going to have a look at them, but you've made it very hard. The motion files are dated, but the fit files aren't. I can only look at one session at a time, so I have to match the dates. At the moment I don't have time to try and sort them, sorry.

Sorry about that. I just sent the FIT files as downloaded from Garmin Connect. I appended to the Garmin Fit file name the numbers 965 for the file from my FR965 and 530 for the file from my Edge 530 bike computer that I included only if you were interested. You can ignore that file for this purpose. Note that all files relate to a singe ride that took place today at about 12pm Sydney time. So there is only one date which is today.

So the zip file includes 4 files. I'm not familiar with the Motion so I just downloaded both file options for that (*.OAO and *.GPX). So that is the first 2 files. Then there are 2 FIT files. The file name ending in 530 can be ignored since it is from my bike computer and of no interest to you. The file name ending in 965 is from the FR965 generated by the APPro app for the exact same time period as the Motion files which was today for a couple hours from 12pm.

Can you suggest how you want the files names in future?

Hope that helps.