boardsurfr said..

I played around a bit with the FlySight firmware to just get 10 second averages. Turns out to be harder than I thought - seems I have just a few hundred bytes (yes, bytes, not kb or Mb!) that are still free - and I'm not sure that they are not used by the speech. But I'd guess that using a controller with a few more kb memory should not drive the price up much. That's an uneducated guess, though - I know almost nothing about these things.

Assuming more memory (and sufficient spare CPU cycles), 5 of the 6 categories which require only speed should be not problem. Alpha would be quite a bit harder, though, since we also need position for alpha. That would require storing position or at least direction in addition to speed, and the algorithm is a bit more complex. Bummer, I like alpha the best since I'm better at turning than at going straight! But perhaps some smarter heads will be able to solve this problem.

We can definitely make sure there is enough horsepower onboard to do any calculations you might want. One option I see is to produce a simple piece of hardware with limited firmware initially. Because the firmware will be open source, the unit could be adapted to show precisely the information that you guys use, provided it has enough power to do the calculations. So the priority would be to ensure that the hardware is up to the job--a relatively easy design task.

And just for the record - I really like that the current FlySight can announce speed through headphones. Speech provides immediate and accurate feedback about what effect changes in stance, sail and board trim, angle to wind, etc. have on speed. I bought an Android phone just for use with GPS Speed Talker while windsurfing, and it helped me a lot. Doing this with a more accurate GPS should be even better. You can't really look at a display all the time when you are going full speed, but you can listen to voices in your head...

I don't think this one has really come up yet in the thread... When I was designing FlySight, I experimented with a heads-up display as well as audible feedback. What I found was that the heads-up display took me completely out of the skydive--I had to do a bit of a "reset" after reading it and remind myself what I was doing. Audible feedback, in contrast, can be understood/ignored almost subconsciously.

However, audible feedback also introduces some design challenges. At the moment, I'm divided on whether the new unit should itself be waterproof and corrosion resistant, or if it should be designed to be used in a case of some sort (hard or soft). External jacks are easy enough to waterproof with enough potting compound, but that leaves them susceptible to corrosion in a saltwater environment. We can eliminate the USB jack using a system like Garmin's, and the SD card slot by making it internal (and accessible either as a USB mass storage device or wirelessly), but an audio jack is harder to eliminate.

The problem is, if the device is used inside a case, then the audio jack is an even bigger problem--how do you run headphones into a waterproof case without compromising the waterproofness?

sailquik said..

There is another possible solution:

If someone can write a Phone app for iPhone and Android that can receive and log via Bluetooth the raw UBX data from a 10hz U-Blox based logger, all we need to do is get a (seriously) waterproof case for the (cheapest possible) phone and use a Wintec G-Rays2 logger or FlySight to send the data.
I imagine a clever phone app writer could put together an app that would mimic all the necessary (for us) functions of the GT-31 Genie at a very reasonable cost.

Advantages:

The screen display (cheap smartphone) can be mounted where it is easily visible.

The GPS receiver can be mounted where it get the cleanest signal (stuck onto the top of your helmet) or even inside the waterproof housing/box with the phone.

The GPS receiver does not need to have a screen display (big cost saving - Wintec G-Rays2 are available now and well under $100ea.)

To throw a bit of a curveball out there... One idea I've been playing around with recently, not related to windsurfing, is a high-quality GPS with minimal physical interface--i.e., no display. This could be connected, e.g., via Bluetooth Low Energy, to a display which could be mounted anywhere. As I see it, such a system has similar advantages to what you describe above. The major disadvantage is that there are more components--more things to lose, more things to charge, more things to debug if the system isn't working quite right.

With FlySight, I had originally considered a modular system with a data plug instead of an audio jack. The user could plug in an "audio" module and get the same functionality as FlySight has now, but they could also plug in a "display" module and get, e.g., a heads-up display. Ultimately, I'm glad that I went with a "monolithic" design instead of the modular design. It reduces flexibility, but it also means FlySight is one thing--not five things. In the case of windsurfing, I see some advantages to having a single box strapped to your arm. I guess the question is, would the advantages of a modular system outweigh its disadvantages?

crwper said..
We can definitely make sure there is enough horsepower onboard to do any calculations you might want. One option I see is to produce a simple piece of hardware with limited firmware initially. Because the firmware will be open source, the unit could be adapted to show precisely the information that you guys use, provided it has enough power to do the calculations. So the priority would be to ensure that the hardware is up to the job--a relatively easy design task.

I think that would be great. Developing the firmware is not a problem. Heck, give me the schematics and I'll get the entire unit running from scratch. I would be pretty rubbish at my job if I didn't =).

And just for the record - I really like that the current FlySight can announce speed through headphones. Speech provides immediate and accurate feedback about what effect changes in stance, sail and board trim, angle to wind, etc. have on speed. I bought an Android phone just for use with GPS Speed Talker while windsurfing, and it helped me a lot. Doing this with a more accurate GPS should be even better. You can't really look at a display all the time when you are going full speed, but you can listen to voices in your head...

I don't think this one has really come up yet in the thread... When I was designing FlySight, I experimented with a heads-up display as well as audible feedback. What I found was that the heads-up display took me completely out of the skydive--I had to do a bit of a "reset" after reading it and remind myself what I was doing. Audible feedback, in contrast, can be understood/ignored almost subconsciously.

However, audible feedback also introduces some design challenges. At the moment, I'm divided on whether the new unit should itself be waterproof and corrosion resistant, or if it should be designed to be used in a case of some sort (hard or soft). External jacks are easy enough to waterproof with enough potting compound, but that leaves them susceptible to corrosion in a saltwater environment. We can eliminate the USB jack using a system like Garmin's, and the SD card slot by making it internal (and accessible either as a USB mass storage device or wirelessly), but an audio jack is harder to eliminate.

The problem is, if the device is used inside a case, then the audio jack is an even bigger problem--how do you run headphones into a waterproof case without compromising the waterproofness?

The first thing that comes to mind is a Bluetooth headset... However, I have some reservations concerning the usefulness of Bluetooth. It's notoriously bad at linking with different phones / peripherals at times. Plus it's definitely going to add to the unit's cost for a feature that may not even be used by the majority of it's users.

shear tip said..

I have never really found the Speed Genie to work for me. On the way back for another speed run, I have maybe 1/2 a second pull the aquapac around my arm, try to peer through the plastic and dried salt, tilt it to the right angle with the sun and my sunglasses polarisation, and try to see if I've beaten my top speed for the day, all while smashing through Botany Bay chop. If the speed genie is cycling through all manner of data, I usually wont get the info I need. I just leave it on 'Trip Max Speed' in large font so I have a chance of getting a glimpse of my max tow second speed.

I'm not sure about linking with a cheap smartphone for display purposes. Current smart phone battery life is hideous with the screen left on and there's no chance of activating it through a plastic case. Big bold text like the GT31 is enough for me.

If you go to 'MISC' page you can disable all that scrolling data and have just the top speed flashed to the screen, if that's what you want.
It's all adjustable to to suit the individual.
Nice to see all the good ideas coming through for a better device.
I just bought a couple of spare GT31s just in case, they're cheap as chips now.

kato said..

My wish list
10Hz raw data no filter
Doppler speed
Doppler speed error
30hr Battery life
Card and internal logging to 30hr
Waterproof 200m. This will withstand a high speed crash and may be in a separate case.
If its to be in a case then the GPS still must be to 100m waterproof
Great strap to case connection that is suitable for arm or wrist
A better seal for any access into the card/USB location

A screen that can display
2 sec peak, 10 sec peak, Current speed (All at once)
with option 2 being

Current speed, Distance, Time (All at once)
Audio feedback on current speed

Custom Screen Setting (You chose)

Size between the Current GT31 and Fortrex 201

Simple push buttons that will work if its in a case
Button lock

Cost $300-$400

Options to consider

Inductive charging
3/4 G, Wi-Fi Downloading
V Max Display (Racing)
Real time uploading (For events)
Smart phone connectivity (For events)
Battery meter of hrs of use left

We had lots of issues with the "Gold Contact" system on the Garmin's just failing due to corrosion or poor contact with the holder. It was very slow to download track from too.

Waterproofing 101
50m= swimming in shallow water (Pool)
100m = pool/ocean diving or snorkelling
200m=suitable for snorkelling and scuba diving.

Other things to consider is that we are a very very small market. USA sell about 50-100, Aus. >50 Europe 50+ ,GT 31 per year MAYBE ???

you missed "Heads up Display" on your visor actually heads up display would be the ultimate whether used with helmet or incorporated into sun/glasses.........wow they are available already
from site faq "Can I connect to third-party sensors, like heart rate monitors and bike computers?? Definitely. Third-party sensors and like power meters, heart rate monitors, and speed & cadence sensors can connect to Recon Jet via ANT+ and Bluetooth Smart (a.k.a. Bluetooth Low Energy). We???ll release a list of compatible devices soon".GT31 blu tooth? hmm



http://jet.reconinstruments.com/

Don't have any input on the tech stuff here - will leave that for Daffy et al. as the aficionados. For me this is key...

vosadrian said..
I personally would much prefer a light weight wrist mounted solution that is water proof. I find the arm band mounted solution to be annoying. I am always adjusting its position, and cannot read the screen unless I stop and twist it towards my eyes.

How about instead of a heads-up display this can coordinated with a sail maker on a Monofilm panel display insert.

Not sure how many of you guy wear glasses for reading but it makes reading the GPS on the water near impossible.
How about a clip on lense available in various strengths +1.5 through +3.0, would cost nothing & also protect the actual screen.

Speaking of screens, I recently bought an E-reader with an E-ink screen, the brighter the sun the better you can see it, heaps better than a LCD.
These can be backlit as well so even in the dark are really clear.

I think there are just a few basic improvements required on the physical side but not sure about the techo stuff.
Waterproofing has to improve.

Paul Kelf said..

Waterproofing has to improve.

So far, that seems like the biggest challenge. In particular, waterproofing is relatively easy compared to protecting the unit against corrosion from saltwater. The USB jack could be replaced with gold pads, as Garmin does, but I'm not sure what to do about an audio jack. I know not many here have mentioned it, but boardsurfr, who has been playing with a FlySight, definitely seems to have got some value from audible feedback.

With audible feedback, earphones will always be a weak point, but at least they're replaceable. One thing we can do is to have the USB pads do double-duty as an audio connector, with an adaptor for earphones. That way, if anything corrodes, its only the relatively cheap adaptor. However, my inner hippie worries that designing such a part to be sacrificial is needlessly wasteful. I wonder if it's possible to do this without the sacrificial adaptor.

Has anyone seen something in similar equipment which might help solve this problem?

Michael

Look at the LifeProof iPhone case for a waterproof headphone jack that works.

Audio would be nice rather than relying on visual whilst concentrating on clenching your cheeks down a run.

Surely bluetooth would eliminate a lot of problems with connections (except power I guess) even a small BT ear-piece similar to what important people wear when driving would work, not sure how water proof that could be though.

The Garmin gold connections weren't that bad compared to the problems with the GT waterproofing, easily identified when a problem & easily fixed.

crwper said..
..

I have idea of the simple race that I want to run here. I have been looking for device to run it but can't not find any. Maybe that is idea also for you for a new racing set ?
My concept is based on lap timer.
Competitor hot start timer by approaching starting buoys or crossing the line between 2 buoys.
Then timer starts.
Then competitor do lap to upper buoy gybe and come back to starting buoy that stops the timer.
Alternatively competitor needs to complete 2 or more laps then timer stops.

Whole competition set consist then of the starting buoy to activate the timer and waterproof timer.
If timer is equip with GPS then even better.
If timer could transit data/ results wireless when lap is completed then next big advantage.

I bought some electronic components to build a prototype and test.
PM anybody if want to discuss further or join forces/ cooperate

Dylan72 said..

I'd like to be in the loop on these discussions. Anything that ka72 can do to assist, let me know.

For what it's worth, as a person who's spent several years analysing GPS data, the important things are battery life, and storage of data. Everything after that is just nice-to-haves.

Actually it isn't. The most important aspect to speedsailing has been the instantaneous feedback of the last run... or even the *current* speed of the run. It allows you to actually improve.

Logging is secondary.

As for the idea of an App to do some of this, you need to get past the issue of having a $500 device in an aqua-pack just so you can run a 99c app on it. That's fine for casual use, but one bad crash and it's dead.

Better to only travel with your GPS and maybe, just maybe, export and analyse later on.

Never used a gopro?

the go-pro like hard casing seems an attractive proposition. a hard case that clamps to your mast just above your boom head.

if we are keeping things simple, a single large display is visible inside the hard case. the hard casing could be rotated by the sailor after each gybe/tack with a quick slap to flick it around.

more complex proposition, the unit and hard case could be a "V" shape with the data logger/gps being central and a screen facing backward on eachside so no need to flick the unit around after each gybe/tack. that would be a more rigid fixing.

i mention the go-pro case as i havent heard of nor experienced any waterproofing issue with that set-up, yet it allows us to still make use of micro-usb ports for charging and an SD card.

just my 2c.
stu.

As an ex-IT developer/project manager with over 15 years of experience in various roles on various development projects I strongly recommend to keep the Release 1.0 of this device SIMPLE, ROBUST, stick to proven solutions that work and limit the functionality improvements to ONE or TWO of the most highly desirable ones over the GT-31.

The reason for this is to keep the complexity down, reliability up and also to shorten the development and testing time. You don't want to wait a year or two for a device that has all the 'bells and whistles' but is full of bugs, looses data, freezes, dies after a 80 km/h crash and costs $1000 to buy.

This doesn't mean we can't have more functions in later releases of the device , but first we have to have a good base to build on. The first rule of successful projects is that complexity is built in stages, not all at once. Remember - technology progresses quickly and if something is too complex it will be SUPERSEDED before it's IMPLEMENTED.

I use a Suunto Ambit which is 100m waterproof and has a programmable display..
I find it good but it is exspensive.. appr$500.
I've had it for 18months now with no problems - it has a resin outer casing with crystal glass which amazingly still has no scratches..
It also has the 4 pin connector for charging and data transfer..
Similat but more specific for windsurfing would be good - include programme for start countdowns also??

Cheers
David