I posted test results from comparing the FlySight GPS to the GT-31 on my blog at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2013/09/flysight-better-gps.html
The FlySight appears to be more accurate, especially in turns. The blog post includes a link to a zip archive with the test data near the bottom, in case anyone want to look at the data.

It would be great if the FlySight could be added to the list of approved devices for the GPS Team Challenge. It uses the u-blox 6 chip, and custom devices based on this chip are allowed for records on GPS-speedsurfing.com.

I just got an email from Michael, the Flysight developer, who is seriously thinking about creating a new GPS similar to the FlySight, but with specific changes for speedsurfing and similar sports. He asked:

"- If we were designing new hardware completely from scratch, and considering the direction that speedsurfing is going, what features would we want to include?"

I have given him my answer, but it can only help to hear from others. The goal would be to not just create a GT-31 clone with better accuracy, but a better GPS for speedsurfing. I think that the FlySight's option to hear your speed while sailing is a great thing, but perhaps I am the exception. Others may have different ideas - don't be shy to voice them!

Taken from another thread

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sailquik said..
1. A gps chip capable of outputting raw binary data including Doppler speed dilution of precision which we need for the accuracy calculations. Preferably at 10hz.

With the rumors that Locosys might be discontinuing the GT31 GPS, this might be a great opportunity to have input into a device that will meet all our specific demands.

Longer battery life, digital screen for sure, maybe a beeper or timer for one hour sailing. link to the GoPro.

I'd like it to vibrate when I go over X speed. Sometimes it's so windy I can't even hear the alarm. This seems like a great chance to find a replacement for the 31. Well done!

If its a new design then it should be waterproof either without a case or with a case that is a similar style to the GoPro housing.

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KevinD002 said..

I'd like it to vibrate when I go over X speed.

So tempting to say something about the bedroom here Kevin

Yea...I was debating between using the word rumble or vibrate... haha

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boardsurfr said..

I posted test results from comparing the FlySight GPS to the GT-31 on my blog at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2013/09/flysight-better-gps.html
The FlySight appears to be more accurate, especially in turns. The blog post includes a link to a zip archive with the test data near the bottom, in case anyone want to look at the data.

It would be great if the FlySight could be added to the list of approved devices for the GPS Team Challenge. It uses the u-blox 6 chip, and custom devices based on this chip are allowed for records on GPS-speedsurfing.com.

Its battery is way too short! 2-3 hrs is crap! One of the great advantages of the GT 31 is that you can go away for the weekend, sail and not have to worry about a charger.

It must be waterproof NOT IP7

Do keep in mind that every feature added also adds to the unit's price. Currently, the Flysight is already $250 and that's quite a hefty price for most weekend warriors. Minimum requirements as far as I'm concerned are the display and longer battery life, evrything else is optional.

There seems to be general agreement on the need for a display and longer battery life. I played around with using an external battery pack to extend the run time - that works in principle, but is a pain to get into an armband. I also don't like the idea of having two connected things, they will come apart sooner or later in a crash.

The GT-31 can show an awful lot of things on the display. It would be useful to hear which things are essential or frequently used. That will include top speed and average speed for the last run and the session. I also use the session distance and sometimes the time. Anything else? Maybe something that the GT-31 can't do?

FlySight manufacturer here.

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KevinD002 said..

I'd like it to vibrate when I go over X speed. Sometimes it's so windy I can't even hear the alarm. This seems like a great chance to find a replacement for the 31. Well done!

Does anyone know if, e.g., a phone on vibrate can be felt while sailing if it's worn on the arm?

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Mobydisc said..

If its a new design then it should be waterproof either without a case or with a case that is a similar style to the GoPro housing.

Waterproof is definitely doable. My only concern is that this often means the device can't be opened with regular tools (without destroying the case). Not a big deal for the most part, but my preference is to keep the device as "open" as possible, and a glued case reduces serviceability. That said, if this thing was being mounted, e.g., on the board, then I think a GoPro-like case would be an option. If it's being mounted on the arm, though, the extra bulk of such a case might be awkward. Perhaps a glued case is best.

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kato said..

Its battery is way too short! 2-3 hrs is crap! One of the great advantages of the GT 31 is that you can go away for the weekend, sail and not have to worry about a charger.

That's easy enough to do. The FlySight is mounted on the back of the helmet, so one of the major design constraints was size. With a device the size of the GT-31, I think we can easily hit 24 hours of logging time.

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dBA said..

Do keep in mind that every feature added also adds to the unit's price. Currently, the Flysight is already $250 and that's quite a hefty price for most weekend warriors. Minimum requirements as far as I'm concerned are the display and longer battery life, evrything else is optional.

This is a key point, I think. It could be that what's really needed here is simply a high-quality waterproof GPS logger with a display and long battery life. Open firmware, like we have on FlySight, would allow you guys to do anything you want, within the limits of that hardware. It's hard to believe there isn't already a device on the market that fits these parameters, but it would be relatively easy to put one together.

On the other hand, we could aim for a more specialized piece of hardware. If you were dreaming big, are you sure a box with a small display mounted on your arm would be the best solution? Are there other features that might be worth the additional price, which can't be found in devices built for general use?

I sense that the replacement for the GT-31 will be coming soon now....

It's great to have a manufacturer on here listening to the end users

My top priorities would be battery life, big clear screen and easy to use button.

Second tier: bluetooth data transfer, but we have to recharge right? How about intergrateted USB data/recharge. If it's waterproof, no need for an aquapac, can the arm band not be designed for someone with the arm circumference of Albeau?

Absolute wishlist stuff:
How about a device that can calculate the six categories on the go? 2sec, 5x10, NM, alpha, hour & distance (in km)

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shear tip said..

My top priorities would be battery life, big clear screen and easy to use button.

How large a screen do you have in mind? On the top surface, I think all of the real estate will be split between a few things: GPS antenna, display, button(s), and power/status LED. The GPS antenna will take roughly a one-inch square, and cannot be under the display. Other than that, the display will probably be the biggest factor in how large the unit is.

What makes a button "easy to use" for you? Would a single-button interface be better, or would it be easier to have, say, three buttons near the display for forward/back/select?

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Second tier: bluetooth data transfer, but we have to recharge right? How about intergrateted USB data/recharge.

Integrated USB data/recharge is easy. With FlySight, when you plug the unit into a PC, it shows up as a drive containing all your data files. I expect we would do the same here, since it makes it super easy for third parties to create software that reads the files.

Bluetooth Low Energy data transfer is, I think, the way to go. In particular, this would make it possible to review data on an iPhone. As a bonus, if we can get BLE on the unit and keep the price reasonable, it would also open the door for wireless accessories down the road.

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If it's waterproof, no need for an aquapac, can the arm band not be designed for someone with the arm circumference of Albeau?

Fabric isn't really my thing, but these elastic wrist/forearm mounts are really popular in skydiving right now:

http://www.chutingstar.com/skydive/viso-ii-elastic-wrist-mount-3478

If we can make this thing waterproof on its own, maybe someone who's better with the soft stuff than I am can come up with a similar mount.

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Absolute wishlist stuff:
How about a device that can calculate the six categories on the go? 2sec, 5x10, NM, alpha, hour & distance (in km)

If I can put together the hardware, then the firmware will absolutely be open source and user-upgradeable. The best thing about that is that a moderately knowledgeable user can set things up to show you whatever you want, so within the limitations of hardware, wishlist stuff is always a possibility.

However, this does, perhaps, open up another hardware question. With a small display, showing more than one or two pieces of information will be difficult. Are you guys generally able to operate a button on the device while sailing, or is there something else we should be considering here?

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crwper said..

...

dBA said..

Do keep in mind that every feature added also adds to the unit's price. Currently, the Flysight is already $250 and that's quite a hefty price for most weekend warriors. Minimum requirements as far as I'm concerned are the display and longer battery life, evrything else is optional.

This is a key point, I think. It could be that what's really needed here is simply a high-quality waterproof GPS logger with a display and long battery life. Open firmware, like we have on FlySight, would allow you guys to do anything you want, within the limits of that hardware.

...

Agree, simple is better, the gaps can be filled with software. Some of the aspects of the GT devices that I really like:
1. Usb charging means I can charge it in the car if necessary.
2. Having the SD card means it's quite easy to transfer to devices like a tablet or laptop without specialized drivers. I suspect that bluetooth protocols are going to require custom software to read data from the device, and that would need to be available on PC, Mac, tablets etc.

I've had my GT-11 for about 8 years now (I'm quite amazed that the battery hasn't given up yet), and although it hasn't been waterlogged, salt water still gets in eventually. Some of the visible screws on the inside have started to rust so corrosion resistance of all components would be high on my list.

I look forward to see what you come up with crwper.

Hi crwper!
I like idea of the wrist band this way make easy for us to see the screen at all time. Other think to keep in mind is the key lock function button just incase of impact, so we don't reset the GPS and loose the session.
I want to thank you for all the effort you making to make this happen, hope it will work for you and us, for sure you have my support for 2 to 3 GPS's.
for someone taking that much time to create something to our specification will have a good product support.
Good luck.
Dani.

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shear tip said..

It's great to have a manufacturer on here listening to the end users

My top priorities would be battery life, big clear screen and easy to use button.

Second tier: bluetooth data transfer, but we have to recharge right? How about intergrateted USB data/recharge. If it's waterproof, no need for an aquapac, can the arm band not be designed for someone with the arm circumference of Albeau?

Absolute wishlist stuff:
How about a device that can calculate the six categories on the go? 2sec, 5x10, NM, alpha, hour & distance (in km)

I would love that last part. Would be easy to compare on the beach to other sailors in the speed competition we are having right now. Stainless steel screws would be nice too!

I played around a bit with the FlySight firmware to just get 10 second averages. Turns out to be harder than I thought - seems I have just a few hundred bytes (yes, bytes, not kb or Mb!) that are still free - and I'm not sure that they are not used by the speech. But I'd guess that using a controller with a few more kb memory should not drive the price up much. That's an uneducated guess, though - I know almost nothing about these things.

Assuming more memory (and sufficient spare CPU cycles), 5 of the 6 categories which require only speed should be not problem. Alpha would be quite a bit harder, though, since we also need position for alpha. That would require storing position or at least direction in addition to speed, and the algorithm is a bit more complex. Bummer, I like alpha the best since I'm better at turning than at going straight! But perhaps some smarter heads will be able to solve this problem.

And just for the record - I really like that the current FlySight can announce speed through headphones. Speech provides immediate and accurate feedback about what effect changes in stance, sail and board trim, angle to wind, etc. have on speed. I bought an Android phone just for use with GPS Speed Talker while windsurfing, and it helped me a lot. Doing this with a more accurate GPS should be even better. You can't really look at a display all the time when you are going full speed, but you can listen to voices in your head...

Hi Guys,

This new project looks great... keep it up!!

I recently purchased for my wife for running a Garmin Forerunner 10. It is a very light weight and 50m waterproof GPS wrist watch. It does not have the windsurfing like display for 5X10 etc, but I am currently using a Geko 201 (smaller than GT-x1), and that does not have that either and does not really bother me. I am happy to see that when I upload later... but I do like a max speed on the water!! I just like to have something that records data and shows you basics like max speed and distance travelled. For me there is only one thing letting this thing down as a windsurfing watch and that is that it uses smart recording for the GPS sample rate, which basically means you are often getting intervals over 2 seconds. Of course this is just a software thing, but I doubt Garmin would ever change something like that for a small market like windsurfing.

I personally would much prefer a light weight wrist mounted solution that is water proof. I find the arm band mounted solution to be annoying. I am always adjusting its position, and cannot read the screen unless I stop and twist it towards my eyes. If something like the Forerunner 10 was available with 1s sampling, preferably Doppler speed, and a cycling display with windsurfing parameters, I would snap it up.

I also have a garmin edge 500 for my bike, and that can be forced to 1s interval, but it is not waterproof and offers nothing above the Geko really, so use the Geko for windsurfing.

I also do not like the idea of using SD cards for this type of device. Better is some sort of USB connector (The forerunner 10 has a some contacts on the back of it and a special clip that connects to the contacts in order to remain waterproof) with internal memory. SD card sockets are just a nightmare in devices that may be subject to water and mechanical damage.

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vosadrian said..

I also do not like the idea of using SD cards for this type of device. Better is some sort of USB connector (The forerunner 10 has a some contacts on the back of it and a special clip that connects to the contacts in order to remain waterproof) with internal memory. SD card sockets are just a nightmare in devices that may be subject to water and mechanical damage.

The 201 only has memory for 10 000 track points. Not enough memory, which is why we use SD cards. Watch like pins were a nightmare on the Foretrex 201,just not strong enough to survive a good crash nor was their waterproofing.

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kato said..

vosadrian said..

I also do not like the idea of using SD cards for this type of device. Better is some sort of USB connector (The forerunner 10 has a some contacts on the back of it and a special clip that connects to the contacts in order to remain waterproof) with internal memory. SD card sockets are just a nightmare in devices that may be subject to water and mechanical damage.

The 201 only has memory for 10 000 track points. Not enough memory, which is why we use SD cards. Watch like pins were a nightmare on the Foretrex 201,just not strong enough to survive a good crash nor was their waterproofing.

Good points, but the Geko is old now. Newer technology allows for storage of far more track points internally. I am not suggesting the Geko is better than GT31, but I think a new product could include internal memory that meets our requirements for track points without any need for an SD card.

Also, point taken on watch pins. I had thought of that. I still like the wrist band approach (to easily view display while sailing), but I think with the addition of a safety strap... basically a soft strap that goes onto your wrist near the watch and attachs to the watch via an elastic strap. The watch face could have a small hole that the elastic strap could connect to. If a pin falls out the watch is not lost and you replace the pin.

I cannot comment on the new forerunner water proofing compare to the older foretrex, but the rating is much better on the new forerunner. It is 50m water resistent rather than just IPX7. It is much physically smaller (watch sized, which is better for water proofing pressures), and has similar waterproofing to sports watches. It has an internal rechargable battery (no battery compartment), and just 4 contacts on the rear that are water proof for the USB adapter to contact. I feel it will provide similar waterproofing to a sports watch, and I have worn sports watches sailing hundreds of times with no water ingress issues (but have lost one due to a pin coming out).

Unfortunately the Forerunner 10 is not an option due to sample interval, but if Garmin could alter the software for 1s intervals.... or if someone like crwper could make something similar for sailing, I think that would be a great option for us.

Killed lots of "Sport watches" crashing at speed 50mt= get wet in shower

Hi,
I see there is a great chance of getting what one really wants, so here are my personal ideas.
1), 2), 3): make it waterproof.
4) GT-31 size can be OK, if it can be worn with no Aquapac (make it waterproof).
5) SD card and USB charging are good, but I think they conflict with 'waterproof'; a solution like that on the Garmin Foretrex (just golden contacts on logger body, separated connector shoe) with a large memory built in and a long battery duration can be a good alternative (as waterprrof is paramount).

Ideally something like a Foretrex 201 but really waterproof and GT-31 like or better accurate and sensible would be real nice.

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kato said..

Killed lots of "Sport watches" crashing at speed 50mt= get wet in shower

Who knows how the forerunner would handle a big crash, but it already loses out on sample interval so its not gonna happen anyway..... but if someone were to make something a lot like it that could handle crashes and had 1s sampling, dopler, safety strap and windsurfing parameter display, I reckon we would all be all over it!!

I can't see how an SD card would work with waterproof unless it had an external case like gopro hard plastic, which makes it bulky, and probably very susceptible to crash damage. If it is going to be waterproof, it needs to be USB with contacts molded into plastic and including charging from USB. And if it is going to be worn on an arm band... why bother making it waterproof when you can use a waterproof Aquapak anyway? In that case, just make a GT-31 copy but with some improvements.

As far as package size goes I think The foretrex 401 is a good size. The screen is large enough to see while sailing and I can even operate the buttons while sailing. Having a few buttons makes it easier to use, especially on the move.

Make it waterproof, give it the needed accuracy and with a strap it's the perfect unit for me.

If it lasts then at around $300 dollars its a reasonably priced piece of windsurfing gear, relatively speaking.

My wish list
10Hz raw data no filter
Doppler speed
Doppler speed error
30hr Battery life
Card and internal logging to 30hr
Waterproof 200m. This will withstand a high speed crash and may be in a separate case.
If its to be in a case then the GPS still must be to 100m waterproof
Great strap to case connection that is suitable for arm or wrist
A better seal for any access into the card/USB location

A screen that can display
2 sec peak, 10 sec peak, Current speed (All at once)
with option 2 being

Current speed, Distance, Time (All at once)
Audio feedback on current speed

Custom Screen Setting (You chose)

Size between the Current GT31 and Fortrex 201

Simple push buttons that will work if its in a case
Button lock

Cost $300-$400

Options to consider

Inductive charging
3/4 G, Wi-Fi Downloading
V Max Display (Racing)
Real time uploading (For events)
Smart phone connectivity (For events)
Battery meter of hrs of use left

We had lots of issues with the "Gold Contact" system on the Garmin's just failing due to corrosion or poor contact with the holder. It was very slow to download track from too.

Waterproofing 101
50m= swimming in shallow water (Pool)
100m = pool/ocean diving or snorkelling
200m=suitable for snorkelling and scuba diving.

Other things to consider is that we are a very very small market. USA sell about 50-100, Aus. >50 Europe 50+ ,GT 31 per year MAYBE ???

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boardsurfr said..

.......You can't really look at a display all the time when you are going full speed, but you can listen to voices in your head...

I do both all the time!

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vosadrian said..

kato said..

vosadrian said..

I also do not like the idea of using SD cards for this type of device. Better is some sort of USB connector (The forerunner 10 has a some contacts on the back of it and a special clip that connects to the contacts in order to remain waterproof) with internal memory. SD card sockets are just a nightmare in devices that may be subject to water and mechanical damage.

The 201 only has memory for 10 000 track points. Not enough memory, which is why we use SD cards. Watch like pins were a nightmare on the Foretrex 201,just not strong enough to survive a good crash nor was their waterproofing.

Good points, but the Geko is old now. Newer technology allows for storage of far more track points internally. I am not suggesting the Geko is better than GT31, but I think a new product could include internal memory that meets our requirements for track points without any need for an SD card.

Also, point taken on watch pins. I had thought of that. I still like the wrist band approach (to easily view display while sailing), but I think with the addition of a safety strap... basically a soft strap that goes onto your wrist near the watch and attachs to the watch via an elastic strap. The watch face could have a small hole that the elastic strap could connect to. If a pin falls out the watch is not lost and you replace the pin.

I cannot comment on the new forerunner water proofing compare to the older foretrex, but the rating is much better on the new forerunner. It is 50m water resistent rather than just IPX7. It is much physically smaller (watch sized, which is better for water proofing pressures), and has similar waterproofing to sports watches. It has an internal rechargable battery (no battery compartment), and just 4 contacts on the rear that are water proof for the USB adapter to contact. I feel it will provide similar waterproofing to a sports watch, and I have worn sports watches sailing hundreds of times with no water ingress issues (but have lost one due to a pin coming out).

Unfortunately the Forerunner 10 is not an option due to sample interval, but if Garmin could alter the software for 1s intervals.... or if someone like crwper could make something similar for sailing, I think that would be a great option for us.

The other fundamental problem of the Garmin devices is that they do not give Doppler speed data, so even if they were to log at 1 second interval, the data is not accurate enough for a reasonable ranking table and of course with no Doppler speed and no speed error data it it useless for any kind of serious competition or record.

The device we are talking about here (based on the U-Blox GPS chip) would be 10hz and have extremely accurate Doppler derived speed data with the Doppler speed error data for further refining and validating the speed accuracy.

Some good ideas here. Also some fanciful ones that would come at a huge cost even if they were possible.

First. Of course it has to be VERY waterproof! This can be achieved with a simple clear plastic housing/case with an O ring seal, and some screws for locking it together. This also means that it can easily be opened for removing SD cards and for charging. The housing/case would have slots for a secure arm band.

Second. The display does not need to be very large at all. I am on old man with aging long sighted eyes, and I can read the GT-31 on my arm at well over 40 knots well enough to know if it is time to back off or keep going. Remember, if you have audio speed feedback, you don't really need to read the screen while on a run anyway. A screen does not need to be more than 50% larger than the current GT-31 screen, but even one the same size would do.

Third. There is really no need at all for external buttons. It can be turned on before closing the box before sailing. It should be able to be programed exactly the way the GT-31 Genie works so that at the end of a run it will automatically scroll through: Last run top speed, Last run 10 second average, session top speed, session best 10 sec average. An advantage of having a slightly larger screen may be that the total session distance could also be continuously displayed. If you really need an external button or two they should be very well sealed.

Fourth. Minimum 30 hour battery life and min 8GB SD memory card is essential. Logging at 10 hz will use roughly 10 times as much memory as logging at 1hz (depending on the file format).

My suggestion: Keep it simple = Keep the cost down.

There is another possible solution:

If someone can write a Phone app for iPhone and Android that can receive and log via Bluetooth the raw UBX data from a 10hz U-Blox based logger, all we need to do is get a (seriously) waterproof case for the (cheapest possible) phone and use a Wintec G-Rays2 logger or FlySight to send the data.
I imagine a clever phone app writer could put together an app that would mimic all the necessary (for us) functions of the GT-31 Genie at a very reasonable cost.

Advantages:

The screen display (cheap smartphone) can be mounted where it is easily visible.

The GPS receiver can be mounted where it get the cleanest signal (stuck onto the top of your helmet) or even inside the waterproof housing/box with the phone.

The GPS receiver does not need to have a screen display (big cost saving - Wintec G-Rays2 are available now and well under $100ea.)

Smartphones have a lot of processing power, long battery life and lots of memory. They may even be able to upload the data via WiFi or Bluetooth directly to you computer. Who knows, they may even be able to upload in real time to the NET!!!!

Anyone out there want to take on the challenge of writing to app? Go on, make a name for yourself!

something like this but clear.