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azymuth said..

firiebob said..
Who asked for a poll and did anyone ask Nebs who looks after the GPSTC web page free and in his own time, if he's prepared to fiddle with something that has been working from day one. If you want to use your garmin or what ever, start another comp, in the other thread there's an engineer who knows how to write code, get him to set it up in his own time for free, that should work ?

A lot of great products and ideas work from day one - and no doubt Nebs and Hardie had a great idea and created an awesome product.
But it would be unusual if after 15? years there was no case for upgrading or refinement to suit changing circumstances - in this case the profusion of cheap (albeit potentially slightly inaccurate) GPS units available and the general decline in windsurfer numbers.
My memory might be fading but I think there was a lot more GPSTC inter-team rivalry 5 years ago than today.

John there's nothing wrong with upgrading or refinement but but allowing slightly inaccurate GPS is not the way to do it.
If people want to post speeds that don't score, why not just post like you do but put your speeds into your comments, surly that's doable and no one has to rewrite code, whether that's easy or not someone has to do it for a gain I can't see, sorry. Please don't take my opinion the wrong way.

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firiebob said..

azymuth said..

firiebob said..
Who asked for a poll and did anyone ask Nebs who looks after the GPSTC web page free and in his own time, if he's prepared to fiddle with something that has been working from day one. If you want to use your garmin or what ever, start another comp, in the other thread there's an engineer who knows how to write code, get him to set it up in his own time for free, that should work ?

A lot of great products and ideas work from day one - and no doubt Nebs and Hardie had a great idea and created an awesome product.
But it would be unusual if after 15? years there was no case for upgrading or refinement to suit changing circumstances - in this case the profusion of cheap (albeit potentially slightly inaccurate) GPS units available and the general decline in windsurfer numbers.
My memory might be fading but I think there was a lot more GPSTC inter-team rivalry 5 years ago than today.

John there's nothing wrong with upgrading or refinement but but allowing slightly inaccurate GPS is not the way to do it.
If people want to post speeds that don't score, why not just post like you do but put your speeds into your comments, surly that's doable and no one has to rewrite code, whether that's easy or not someone has to do it for a gain I can't see, sorry. Please don't take my opinion the wrong way.

Bob... I like the idea of inclusiveness of posting and looking back at your top scores... I still reminence by looking at my old top 5 when I was young and fit.

I reckon posting in comments only is a little like taking your sister to the prom... awkward and you know nothing good will come out of it...

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Boston! said..

firiebob said..
Who asked for a poll and did anyone ask Nebs who looks after the GPSTC web page free and in his own time, if he's prepared to fiddle with something that has been working from day one. If you want to use your garmin or what ever, start another comp, in the other thread there's an engineer who knows how to write code, get him to set it up in his own time for free, that should work ?

I take it you consider the pole a bad idea? Why?

I just can't see the point, as I said to JJ above, why not just post your session and put your speeds in your comments, that can't be hard. Remember someone has to make those changes and as far as I know no one has asked him if he can or wants to, its his code. If Nebs can then it's happy days for those who want it but at this stage it may not matter how the vote goes. And no I didn't vote.

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sailquik said..

Boston! said..

decrepit said..

Boston! said.. >>I take it you consider the pole a bad idea? Why?

For one, although I'm doing my best to give everybody a chance to vote, as Mal Falkner pointed out to me a while ago, it's mainly going to be the people that want change that are going to vote. So the result will be heavily skewed in the favour of change.
But it will still give those people a point to whinge about if they don't get their way.

Decrepit, you have the opportunity to send the voting link to all of the people who don't want change. Send it out far and wide. It's the whole idea, man? Get as many people involved as possible. Stop making excuses in advance!

Such a poll is a silly idea. It has very little credability and just give a focus for a few diaffected people to stir, and a few whiners to winge even more. Anyone with any intelligence knows that this sort of Poll is just rubbish.

Daffy, this is precisely the type of dismissive post from Gpstc committee members over the years which has led to the average punter getting the ****s. Yes we are all just "wingers and whiners"!

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Boston! said..

decrepit said..

Boston! said.. >>I take it you consider the pole a bad idea? Why?

For one, although I'm doing my best to give everybody a chance to vote, as Mal Falkner pointed out to me a while ago, it's mainly going to be the people that want change that are going to vote. So the result will be heavily skewed in the favour of change.
But it will still give those people a point to whinge about if they don't get their way.

Decrepit, you have the opportunity to send the voting link to all of the people who don't want change. Send it out far and wide. It's the whole idea, man? Get as many people involved as possible. Stop making excuses in advance!

I have an idea, if you want change you send it out far and wide

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red said..

firiebob said..

azymuth said..

firiebob said..
Who asked for a poll and did anyone ask Nebs who looks after the GPSTC web page free and in his own time, if he's prepared to fiddle with something that has been working from day one. If you want to use your garmin or what ever, start another comp, in the other thread there's an engineer who knows how to write code, get him to set it up in his own time for free, that should work ?

A lot of great products and ideas work from day one - and no doubt Nebs and Hardie had a great idea and created an awesome product.
But it would be unusual if after 15? years there was no case for upgrading or refinement to suit changing circumstances - in this case the profusion of cheap (albeit potentially slightly inaccurate) GPS units available and the general decline in windsurfer numbers.
My memory might be fading but I think there was a lot more GPSTC inter-team rivalry 5 years ago than today.

John there's nothing wrong with upgrading or refinement but but allowing slightly inaccurate GPS is not the way to do it.
If people want to post speeds that don't score, why not just post like you do but put your speeds into your comments, surly that's doable and no one has to rewrite code, whether that's easy or not someone has to do it for a gain I can't see, sorry. Please don't take my opinion the wrong way.

Bob... I like the idea of inclusiveness of posting and looking back at your top scores... I still reminence by looking at my old top 5 when I was young and fit.

I reckon posting in comments only is a little like taking your sister to the prom... awkward and you know nothing good will come out of it...

You're still young and fit Red
It's only awkward when you wear someone elses rubber
I was hoping to spend this summer in Vic but now no can do, still hoping to get to LG in Feb, might see you there mate

Thanks peter for taking the initiative and help gauge the interest in doing something a bit different.

Everyone be aware that the info you put in is visible to everyone else who fills it in.

speaking for my team, there's a number of guys who have stopped posting because of multiple hardware failures. I would love to have them as part of the gpstc community again.

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sailquik said..

Boston! said..

decrepit said..

Boston! said.. >>I take it you consider the pole a bad idea? Why?

For one, although I'm doing my best to give everybody a chance to vote, as Mal Falkner pointed out to me a while ago, it's mainly going to be the people that want change that are going to vote. So the result will be heavily skewed in the favour of change.
But it will still give those people a point to whinge about if they don't get their way.

Decrepit, you have the opportunity to send the voting link to all of the people who don't want change. Send it out far and wide. It's the whole idea, man? Get as many people involved as possible. Stop making excuses in advance!

Such a poll is a silly idea. It has very little credability and just give a focus for a few diaffected people to stir, and a few whiners to winge even more. Anyone with any intelligence knows that this sort of Poll is just rubbish.

Daffy, could you help me understand why this is just rubbish?.. what are your concerns?

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firiebob said.. John there's nothing wrong with upgrading or refinement but but allowing slightly inaccurate GPS is not the way to do it.
If people want to post speeds that don't score, why not just post like you do but put your speeds into your comments, surly that's doable and no one has to rewrite code, whether that's easy or not someone has to do it for a gain I can't see, sorry. Please don't take my opinion the wrong way.

Bob - I reckon it's great that some voice opinions about the sport they love.
This forum/thread would be uninteresting if we all agreed with each other

I suspect if the GW60 hadn't caused so many problems, or the GT31 was readily available this issue may well not have arisen. Maybe?!?

Why not grow the GPSTC? The only real problem seems to $$$ for software development. With the rise in foiling and interest in a category for that, now is the perfect time to take GPSTC to the next level (if $$$ can be sourced).
it could be structured so that when uploading you select "speed", "casual" or "foil" and the results go to completely different boards. Results from unapproved devices would appear on a different "casual board" and would not be in a competition, but users could still track their results and engage in the required banter and sledging. Foiling could go to a parallel competition and require approved devices.
Just my 2c. Change is part of life

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Stretchy said..
Why not grow the GPSTC? The only real problem seems to $$$ for software development. With the rise in foiling and interest in a category for that, now is the perfect time to take GPSTC to the next level (if $$$ can be sourced).
it could be structured so that when uploading you select "speed", "casual" or "foil" and the results go to completely different boards. Results from unapproved devices would appear on a different "casual board" and would not be in a competition, but users could still track their results and engage in the required banter and sledging. Foiling could go to a parallel competition and require approved devices.
Just my 2c. Change is part of life

Well put - I pledge $100 to a coding fund to pay Nebs or if he hasn't got time, to outsource it.

Foiling has stimulated a lot of interest from ex-windsurfers and even a few non-windsurfers - makes sense to capitalize on that and also be as welcoming as possible to newbie speed sailors.
Who knows WS might get popular again

Hi all thanks again for setting up the poll boardsurf.
As to Daffy I was the one who suggested the vote and if you read the preamble in the poll you would be aware that it was set up out side of the committee. I would assume because they the aforementioned dictatorship didn't want to or don't care if people do or don't do gpstc. But as per the results it is mainly people who are part of gpstc that are voting. As to it being Nebs code I think we all respect and understand people have put in a lot of work over the years to make this happen. As you can see from the results people are happy to put there money up for change.
But to dismiss this as rubbish and People to not vote is just sticking your head in the sand.
This attitude of go and do it your self if you don't like it is great and will probably just result in further decline as per cockys post earlier and if we are happy with that yeah!

I for one would rather be open to change and growth. Not at the exspense of what has gone before or the accuracy of the results but it seems to me there is some suggestions for compromise being put forward. As Decrepit mentioned there is currently issues around devices being available.
the poll is not just about using different devices but also about what people have etc. Perhaps we can all learn more about who and where and what people are doing in gpstc and windsurfing.

Looking at forum posts can give the wrong ideas. Most windsurfers I know rarely or never post on forums. Many of those who post from time to time stay away from controversial topics. In the discussions here, it's usually just a handful of people who post. The poll has gotten more than 80 responses in less than a day.

The poll responses are data. The number of responses means that this are more accurate data than often repeated, but also conflicting, statements made by proponents and opponents. It is perhaps surprising to see that the biggest proponents of "accurate data" hate the idea of data gathering when it goes against their personal opinions.

Below is the current summary after 87 responses. This count includes three double submissions, and 10 responses without a name or GPSTC nickname. However, removing these does not change the results by more than a percent or two.
There are about 70 GPSTC members who responded and support a two-tier posting system. The roughly 90% approval rating has been constant since the first ~20 responses, and is unlikely to change dramatically with additional responses.

These are data about how GPSTC members feel. There is no need to react emotionally to data. If you believe they are wrong, disprove them by collecting your own data. However, keep in mind that going around and asking people in person will likely give you a very biased result - especially if you have a forceful personality and an "elevated" standing in the community.

After just 3 seasons (and a lot of money on specialty fins/boards etc) of being a part of the comp I pulled out (as many others in team Lake Macquarie did). My reasons:
1. For too many people sessions became more about "what are your numbers", and not how much fun was your session. It seemed to be all people wanted to talk about.
2. The emergence of foiling became way more enjoyable (partly because of the above).
3. Having never really actually contributed to my teams overall score (which I could not give a f..k about) I posted on the GPSTC site using the amazing Garmin Fenix 3 device and promptly got what I considered to be a very harshly worded email telling me to stop doing so despite the numerous repeated failures of the devices that are approved.
4. Some of the people that I sailed with showed a level of arrogance and condescension towards me (and others that really couldn't give a crap about their speeds) for not being more competitive.
5. After a while going as fast as I could on the gear I could afford just got really boring. I will never enjoy speed sailing as much as a good jump session.

To each there own, just be careful you don't ostracise others in your pursuit of just going fast.

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azymuth said..
A student, .....
He's got a Garmin GPS watch - when I told him he'd have to find the funds to buy another GPS to post his scores I could see his enthusiasm dim.
Dual system makes sense - welcomes newbies, they can upgrade their GPS if they want to chase 40s.

Canmore Gporter is approved and around $60. I have it as a spare in case my GW60 dies

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powersloshin said..

azymuth said..
A student, .....
He's got a Garmin GPS watch - when I told him he'd have to find the funds to buy another GPS to post his scores I could see his enthusiasm dim.
Dual system makes sense - welcomes newbies, they can upgrade their GPS if they want to chase 40s.

Canmore Gporter is approved and around $60. I have it as a spare in case my GW60 dies

The Canmore will be phased out in about 5 months.
The cheapest I found was $110 which includes postage.
None being sold is Australia on EBay any more.

Some people cant count very well.
70 for change is probably nearly a full count of those with an appetite for change.
That only leaves about 1650 without appetite for change .
The silent majority has spoken very loudly on this issue!

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Belly25 said..
3. Having never really actually contributed to my teams overall score (which I could not give a f..k about)
4. Some of the people that I sailed with showed a level of arrogance and condescension towards me (and others that really couldn't give a crap about their speeds) for not being more competitive.

Belly, last year you where the 6th highest contributer to the Lake Mac team score, without your efforts we may not have won the trophy.
Sorry if I was one of the ones who may have pushed you to be competitive. I enjoy the competitive nature of GPSTC even though chasing speed is often disappointing.

Just wondering if by some chance this dual tier system gets up, how will it work?

1. Will people who only use unapproved devices have a page that shows their best 5 in each category?
I suspect these people will want a way to track their best sessions. For people who post sometimes with approved and sometimes with unapproved will they have two different best 5 summary pages?

2. Will sessions with unapproved devices count towards your overall 'Distance Travelled'?
Or will I still need to carry a GT31 on my foil sessions to track the kilometers

I assume everyone agrees that the overall ranking tables and team scores will only be for approved devices.

Is the Garmin watch less accurate or do Garmin just not publish accuracy figures ?

Anyone who wishes to complete with a non approved device , what about using Strava ?

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Richiefish said..
Is the Garmin watch less accurate or do Garmin just not publish accuracy figures ?

That's the problem nobody knows how accurate the garmins are all the time, most of the time they correspond quite well with approved devices. It's the times they don't correspond that's the problem. Without accuracy data a lot of the dodgy stuff would get through the filters. I don't hink anybody has done an exhaustive study of Garmin accuracy. I started a few years ago, but got red thumbed when I posted my results, so I spat the dummy and gave up on it.

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tbwonder said..
Just wondering if by some chance this dual tier system gets up, how will it work?

That's the problem isn't it. Voting on something we don't understand, bit like Brexit really.

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boardsurfr said..
>>>keep in mind that going around and asking people in person will likely give you a very biased result - especially if you have a forceful personality and an "elevated" standing in the community.

I don't think that was well said Peter, especially on this forum, I think you may be escalating this into a war.

Which I want no part of!

It would be good if you and Daffy could be a bit more accommodating.

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tbwonder said..
Just wondering if by some chance this dual tier system gets up, how will it work?

1. Will people who only use unapproved devices have a page that shows their best 5 in each category?
I suspect these people will want a way to track their best sessions. For people who post sometimes with approved and sometimes with unapproved will they have two different best 5 summary pages?

What is the point of a pb and 5 best results if you can't verify the results

It seems a bit strange to me that this whole competition is reliant on one companies products. I reckon trying to validate the accuracy of Garmin and other units is the best option. Starting a "dodgy data" division would most likely detract from the whole speed quest thing. What happens for example at the Burrum speed comp when all the sailors with non compliant gear cant play ?

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John340 said..
What is the point of a pb and 5 best results if you can't verify the results

When you and I think about it, not much point at all, but a lot of people just seem interested in numbers. Like me driving in my Mazda2, I know the speedo reads 8% low, and I can safely do 108 on the speedo in a 100km zone. But I still find my self sticking to 100 on the speedo. It's the power of numbers, involving accuracy involves some mental effort to give it any weight.

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decrepit said..

boardsurfr said..
>>>keep in mind that going around and asking people in person will likely give you a very biased result - especially if you have a forceful personality and an "elevated" standing in the community.

I don't think that was well said Peter, especially on this forum, I think you may be escalating this into a war.

Which I want no part of!

It would be good if you and Daffy could be a bit more accommodating.

Sorry if I phrased that too forcefully. However, this is something that is worth remembering. I have definitely had similar issues in the past. I have tried to keep the poll neutral, but probably should have kept my own opinion more private, since even just stating my own opinion creates bias. People with "forceful personalities" often don't realize that others are very careful around them; I count myself and Daffy in this category. My apologies if that places a more centered individual like you in the middle, where you have the very difficult task to talk sense into both of us .

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John340 said..

tbwonder said..
Just wondering if by some chance this dual tier system gets up, how will it work?

1. Will people who only use unapproved devices have a page that shows their best 5 in each category?
I suspect these people will want a way to track their best sessions. For people who post sometimes with approved and sometimes with unapproved will they have two different best 5 summary pages?

What is the point of a pb and 5 best results if you can't verify the results

Well I guess if you are a beginner then it is nice to see your progress, albeit perhaps not accurate. For 'Distance', 'Hour' and even 'Nautical' many modern non approved devices would give reasonable results.
If there isn't going to be any personal overview page for Non approved devices then people may as well just post their results in the comments as has been suggested repeatedly.

Regarding reliability of devices, I have 6 approved GPS devices, that I have accumulated over the last 10 years or so. They all still work. I have only had to replace the USB socket on a GT31 and repair the strap on my GW60.