Based on a suggestion in the "GW60 croaked it" thread, I have created a poll to see what people think about allowing postings from "non-approved" devices on the GPS Team Challenge. The poll can be found by clicking the links on boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2019/09/gps-team-challenge-device-poll.html (I tried but could not post a direct link here).

The idea is that postings would have a 2-tier system: approved devices will be required for postings to count towards team and individual rankings, as is the case now. But non-approved devices like Garmin, Suuonto, and Timex watches would be allowed for "informal" or "recreational" postings.

This is not really my idea, but rather, it is based on some ideas already sketched out in the GPSTC with the "Doppler", "Trackpoint", and "Unknown" postings. However, full implementation will require some changes and incur costs. The poll is intended to get an idea how many people think such a two-tier system makes sense. Is this just a small but very vocal group? Or would many current GPSTC members like to be able to use other devices for "recreational" postings?

I am starting a new topic here to show the poll results as they come in, and to facilitate discussion. Please note that this is not a discussion of whether any specific device should be approved or not. The idea behind the two-tier system is, to borrow expressions from Hardie, to increase "inclusiveness" without reducing accuracy.

Within a couple of hours of putting the poll up, there's been 24 responses. A couple of responses are doubles from the same person, and a couple are without any name / nickname / email address, but about 20 are unique and linked to identifying information. I think anyone who fills out the poll can now see the results, but I already answered before I made that change so I cannot be sure . Here are the current results:

Great work . its rolling on about 90% yes now . I would have liked the question " should any decent quality gps be alowed to be used for points "

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Simon100 said..
Great work . its rolling on about 90% yes now . I would have liked the question " should any decent quality gps be alowed to be used for points "

Understandable, but what's a "decent quality gps"? With limited tests, most GPS units will give decent results. Suuonto watches have a good reputation, but one ~20 file example I looked at had about 10-20% obvious errors, including some that made it past the software filters. One example overstated speed by 2-4 knots for 15 seconds. I could also tell you how to produce 20 files that are unlikely to have any such errors. Experimental setup is very critical. The guys who make decisions about approval have a lot of expertise in this area, and are very careful in their decisions. It is absolutely not my intention to question their decisions or qualifications.

We're at 52 responses. The support for the 2-tier system is around 90%. Last time I checked there were 4 duplicate responses, and 5 responses without name. Removing these does not really affect the results, it's still close to 90%. I have gotten a few messages already from people I know who responded. I plan on sending a few messages out to confirm that responses are real.

One thing that surprises me is that about 20% of GPSTC members do not have a working approved GPS; another is that more than 60% have a non-approved device:

Very interesting Peter, but I think we need to factor in the number of GPST members that don't visit this site.
I'll put a link in the news, that should help get a more representative sample.

Mike, you are absolutely right - the responses may well be biased towards those who have had bad experiences with the GW60. Anyone who opposes the 2-tier system and knows others who do - please respond, and encourage them to also respond! The more responses, the better the accuracy :-).
There have been a lot of comments in the responses. I just want to share one of them right away:


I think this is indeed a valid concern. There will certainly be some unapproved devices that will tend to give higher numbers. We can work a bit on improving software filters, but some problems will remain.
I think one thing that will help is to make files available (as many already do on ka72), or/and to post speed tracks. Quite often, device spikes are very obvious - here's an example from a Suuonto watch with two obvious spikes:
This is from foiling. I get spikes every session even with the GW60 and the Motion when I foil because I swim so much . But those are easy to filter. The ones in the example above, not so: the first one is quite long (~15 seconds), and the second one is at the start of a run, and > 5 seconds long. It's still 99% likely to be an artifact because of how it stands out (and because this particular foil just does not go that fast).

Where is this poll? I never really visit the forums and was guided here by an FB post...
thanks

Edit - never mind, found it... link didn't really jump out

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boardsurfr said..Suuonto watches have a good reputation, but one ~20 file example I looked at had about 10-20% obvious errors, including some that made it past the software filters

I think KA72 cleans up Suunto spikes, pretty sure I've noticed exaggerated speeds (22-28) probably from foil crashes - showing as 18-20 (realistic) when uploaded from KA72 to GPSTC (before I zero it out).
Could be wrong.

Good move creating the poll - max inclusiveness in all areas of a sport that's declining must be a good thing, surely

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azymuth said..>>>I think KA72 cleans up Suunto spikes, pretty sure I've noticed exaggerated speeds (22-28) probably from foil crashes - showing as 18-20 (realistic) when uploaded from KA72 to GPSTC (before I zero it out).
Could be wrong.

Good move creating the poll - max inclusiveness in all areas of a sport that's declining must be a good thing, surely

KA72 does clean up some spikes, but it's filters seem to be less strict in some areas than we'd like.
And as peter says, you can't rely entirely on filters. If you make then strict enough to catch all inaccuracies then you could also miss out on a legitimate PB. It's a very fine line, and we think Peter has got GPSspeedreader as good as possible.
Having accuracy info in the file, gives other filter options, allowing rejection of more inaccuracies.

Recreational sailors can already post to KA72, and can also create groups and competitions. For gps team challenge I think showing commitment by buying an approved device should be the minimum standard. A lot of people spend quite a lot in boards, sails and trips to try and go faster, why should not also get an up to standard device ?

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powersloshin said..
Recreational sailors can already post to KA72, and can also create groups and competitions. For gps team challenge I think showing commitment by buying an approved device should be the minimum standard. A lot of people spend quite a lot in boards, sails and trips to try and go faster, why should not also get an up to standard device ?

This argument is spot on, if approved devices were easy to get hold of, or reliable. At the moment we have neither, the GW60 may last for more than 2 years, and you could get a motion in a few months. I'm leaning towards a dual system, of some sort, even if it's to allow new sailors a lead in on a cheap device until an approved device is readily available.
But again it comes down to what's possible, I don't like the idea of unapproved devices posting on the main database.

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decrepit said..

powersloshin said..
Recreational sailors can already post to KA72, and can also create groups and competitions. For gps team challenge I think showing commitment by buying an approved device should be the minimum standard. A lot of people spend quite a lot in boards, sails and trips to try and go faster, why should not also get an up to standard device ?

This argument is spot on, if approved devices were easy to get hold of, or reliable. At the moment we have neither, the GW60 may last for more than 2 years, and you could get a motion in a few months. I'm leaning towards a dual system, of some sort, even if it's to allow new sailors a lead in on a cheap device until an approved device is readily available.
But again it comes down to what's possible, I don't like the idea of unapproved devices posting on the main database.

Agree.
A student, WAIS RSX and ex 420 dinghy world champion recently bought a race sail from me for $100, keen as mustard to learn slalom, join the Pinnas and see how fast he goes. I encouraged him to join the GPSTC community because you learn how to speed a lot faster and it's friendly - something he says is missing from competitive dinghy sailing.
He's got a Garmin GPS watch - when I told him he'd have to find the funds to buy another GPS to post his scores I could see his enthusiasm dim.
Dual system makes sense - welcomes newbies, they can upgrade their GPS if they want to chase 40s.

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azymuth said..

Agree.
A student, WAIS RSX and ex 420 dinghy world champion recently bought a race sail from me for $100, keen as mustard to learn slalom, join the Pinnas and see how fast he goes. I encouraged him to join the GPSTC community because you learn how to speed a lot faster and it's friendly - something he says is missing from competitive dinghy sailing.
He's got a Garmin GPS watch - when I told him he'd have to find the funds to buy another GPS to post his scores I could see his enthusiasm dim.
Dual system makes sense - welcomes newbies, they can upgrade their GPS if they want to chase 40s.

I think you might have misread the situation JJ. I am pretty sure this is what you meant to say...

"Agree.
A student, WAIS RSX and ex 420 dinghy world champion recently bought a race sail from me for $100, keen as mustard to learn slalom. I encouraged him to join the GPSTC community because you learn how to speed a lot faster and it's friendly - something he says is missing from competitive dinghy sailing.
He's got a Garmin GPS watch but when I told him he'd have to join the Pinnaroos, I could see his enthusiasm dim.
Dual system makes sense - welcomes newbies, they can upgrade their GPS if they want to chase 40s..."

There. I fixed it

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fangman said..

azymuth said..

Agree.
A student, WAIS RSX and ex 420 dinghy world champion recently bought a race sail from me for $100, keen as mustard to learn slalom, join the Pinnas and see how fast he goes. I encouraged him to join the GPSTC community because you learn how to speed a lot faster and it's friendly - something he says is missing from competitive dinghy sailing.
He's got a Garmin GPS watch - when I told him he'd have to find the funds to buy another GPS to post his scores I could see his enthusiasm dim.
Dual system makes sense - welcomes newbies, they can upgrade their GPS if they want to chase 40s.

I think you might have misread the situation JJ. I have fixed your post so that it reflects the true reality

"Agree.
A student, WAIS RSX and ex 420 dinghy world champion recently bought a race sail from me for $100, keen as mustard to learn slalom. I encouraged him to join the GPSTC community because you learn how to speed a lot faster and it's friendly - something he says is missing from competitive dinghy sailing.
He's got a Garmin GPS watch but when I told him he'd have to join the Pinnaroos, I could see his enthusiasm dim.
Dual system makes sense - welcomes newbies, they can upgrade their GPS if they want to chase 40s..."

There. I fixed it

Droll - but I expected nothing less from the king

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powersloshin said..
Recreational sailors can already post to KA72, and can also create groups and competitions. For gps team challenge I think showing commitment by buying an approved device should be the minimum standard. A lot of people spend quite a lot in boards, sails and trips to try and go faster, why should not also get an up to standard device ?

Totally agree! But when my gt31 dies I know I'm going to be awhile waiting for a suitable approved replacement....

Who asked for a poll and did anyone ask Nebs who looks after the GPSTC web page free and in his own time, if he's prepared to fiddle with something that has been working from day one. If you want to use your garmin or what ever, start another comp, in the other thread there's an engineer who knows how to write code, get him to set it up in his own time for free, that should work ?

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red said..

powersloshin said..
Recreational sailors can already post to KA72, and can also create groups and competitions. For gps team challenge I think showing commitment by buying an approved device should be the minimum standard. A lot of people spend quite a lot in boards, sails and trips to try and go faster, why should not also get an up to standard device ?

Totally agree! But when my gt31 dies I know I'm going to be awhile waiting for a suitable approved replacement....

I'll lend you mine Red

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firiebob said..

red said..

powersloshin said..
Recreational sailors can already post to KA72, and can also create groups and competitions. For gps team challenge I think showing commitment by buying an approved device should be the minimum standard. A lot of people spend quite a lot in boards, sails and trips to try and go faster, why should not also get an up to standard device ?

Totally agree! But when my gt31 dies I know I'm going to be awhile waiting for a suitable approved replacement....

I'll lend you mine Red

I want a fast one though!

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firiebob said..
Who asked for a poll and did anyone ask Nebs who looks after the GPSTC web page free and in his own time, if he's prepared to fiddle with something that has been working from day one. If you want to use your garmin or what ever, start another comp, in the other thread there's an engineer who knows how to write code, get him to set it up in his own time for free, that should work ?

A lot of great products and ideas work from day one - and no doubt Nebs and Hardie had a great idea and created an awesome product.
But it would be unusual if after 15? years there was no case for upgrading or refinement to suit changing circumstances - in this case the profusion of cheap (albeit potentially slightly inaccurate) GPS units available and the general decline in windsurfer numbers.
My memory might be fading but I think there was a lot more GPSTC inter-team rivalry 5 years ago than today.

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azymuth said..

firiebob said..
Who asked for a poll and did anyone ask Nebs who looks after the GPSTC web page free and in his own time, if he's prepared to fiddle with something that has been working from day one. If you want to use your garmin or what ever, start another comp, in the other thread there's an engineer who knows how to write code, get him to set it up in his own time for free, that should work ?

A lot of great products and ideas work from day one - and no doubt Nebs and Hardie had a great idea and created an awesome product.
But it would be unusual if after 15? years there was no case for upgrading or refinement to suit changing circumstances - in this case the profusion of cheap (albeit potentially slightly inaccurate) GPS units available and the general decline in windsurfer numbers.
My memory might be fading but I think there was a lot more GPSTC inter-team rivalry 5 years ago than today.

Total numbers posting for Australia. 2019 may still have an increase before end of Year.

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firiebob said..
Who asked for a poll and did anyone ask Nebs who looks after the GPSTC web page free and in his own time, if he's prepared to fiddle with something that has been working from day one. If you want to use your garmin or what ever, start another comp, in the other thread there's an engineer who knows how to write code, get him to set it up in his own time for free, that should work ?

I take it you consider the pole a bad idea? Why?

I do

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kato said..
I do

And why?...... Gpstc advisory dude?

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decrepit said..

powersloshin said..
Recreational sailors can already post to KA72, and can also create groups and competitions. For gps team challenge I think showing commitment by buying an approved device should be the minimum standard. A lot of people spend quite a lot in boards, sails and trips to try and go faster, why should not also get an up to standard device ?

This argument is spot on, if approved devices were easy to get hold of, or reliable. At the moment we have neither, the GW60 may last for more than 2 years, and you could get a motion in a few months. I'm leaning towards a dual system, of some sort, even if it's to allow new sailors a lead in on a cheap device until an approved device is readily available.
But again it comes down to what's possible, I don't like the idea of unapproved devices posting on the main database.

Below are some of our Teams GW60 that have died. I try to fix some with water damage from people pushing buttons while wet with limited success as corrosion to bad.
The Garmin 920XT on the left has been used always on wrist using the App for on water feedback so I do have to touch approved device.
It has done 25 000 KM and nearly 4 years old.
I am using my third GW60 now during the same period.

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Boston! said.. >>I take it you consider the pole a bad idea? Why?

For one, although I'm doing my best to give everybody a chance to vote, as Mal Falkner pointed out to me a while ago, it's mainly going to be the people that want change that are going to vote. So the result will be heavily skewed in the favour of change.
But it will still give those people a point to whinge about if they don't get their way.

Cocky, you may have a market for those batteries, as John found out. a replacement isn't easy to come by.

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decrepit said..

Boston! said.. >>I take it you consider the pole a bad idea? Why?

For one, although I'm doing my best to give everybody a chance to vote, as Mal Falkner pointed out to me a while ago, it's mainly going to be the people that want change that are going to vote. So the result will be heavily skewed in the favour of change.
But it will still give those people a point to whinge about if they don't get their way.

Decrepit, you have the opportunity to send the voting link to all of the people who don't want change. Send it out far and wide. It's the whole idea, man? Get as many people involved as possible. Stop making excuses in advance!

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Boston! said..

decrepit said..

Boston! said.. >>I take it you consider the pole a bad idea? Why?

For one, although I'm doing my best to give everybody a chance to vote, as Mal Falkner pointed out to me a while ago, it's mainly going to be the people that want change that are going to vote. So the result will be heavily skewed in the favour of change.
But it will still give those people a point to whinge about if they don't get their way.

Decrepit, you have the opportunity to send the voting link to all of the people who don't want change. Send it out far and wide. It's the whole idea, man? Get as many people involved as possible. Stop making excuses in advance!

Such a poll is a silly idea. It has very little credability and just give a focus for a few diaffected people to stir, and a few whiners to winge even more. Anyone with any intelligence knows that this sort of Poll is just rubbish.

My 2 c.
I think things should stay as they are by the way of using an approved GPS. I would be happy to donate funds for loan devices to be held by team captains for the use of youth and student sailors (excluding mature students??) and team members waiting to receive a new device when theirs have died.
If a majority of people go over to using unapproved devices the couple that still exsist will no longer be financially viable to produce in an already small market. So I say support what we have or loose it.
With more and more windsurfers taking up foiling and getting great speeds I think to keep things going strong time should be spent setting up a seperate foiling database. Imo

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red said..

firiebob said..

red said..

powersloshin said..
Recreational sailors can already post to KA72, and can also create groups and competitions. For gps team challenge I think showing commitment by buying an approved device should be the minimum standard. A lot of people spend quite a lot in boards, sails and trips to try and go faster, why should not also get an up to standard device ?

Totally agree! But when my gt31 dies I know I'm going to be awhile waiting for a suitable approved replacement....

I'll lend you mine Red

I want a fast one though!

Bugger, I haven't got one of them

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kato said..
I do

I'm still trying to get my head around this ... if an added tab for non approved devices that doesn't affect the original GPSTC concept ( approved devices only vs approves devices only) how will this change it? The people who love the competitiveness and accuracy of it will not be affected at all... in anything it will only strengthen speed sailing in the long run...
Reminds me of a sport I use to do in the 80's and 90's that got high tech and specialised ... it faded away until it reinvented itself with user friendly gear and became about fun again.... can't remember the sport though...