Well this will put the cat amongst the pigeons, but what gps units are acceptable for the Team Challenge. If the unit is allowed on GPS3S then by default it is allowed on the GPSTC? If you can post your speeds there and linked to here then that's OK?

As the GT31 is now at its end of life and no longer available what alternatives are available in each country. In the USA the only way to get into posting is to buy a phone and GPSLogit app, no GW52 are available.

Remember the GPSTC is all about participation and getting people involved, no sheep-stations at stake! Do we want more people involved, I reckon yes. If that is the case do we accept the new tech like phone apps but just put in brackets afterwards (GPSLogit) like we do for (Doppler) or (Trackpoint).

Roo, I like your suggestion of [GPSLogit] to denote the logging app. If bragging rights come down to the logging app type, I guess looking at the actual data logs might help sort out any squabbles?

Anyway, as Roo knows from our personal emails, I've started looking for a supplier of GW-52 in the USA with no success yet. Without GPSLogit and a smartphone I would be unable to participate in the GPSTC which, in retrospect might explain why GPSTC is popular in a lot of countries but has very little participation from the USA. Yes, it is possible for me to now order a GW-52 from Europe or Australia, but I suspect this is an additional barrier (potentially a large barrier) for a lot of windsurfers in the USA who will just say F*** it, and move on enjoying their sailing. I'm writing this because I've found GPSTC to be a great community and a way to motivate improving skills, and I guess I've unknowingly been doing it 'illegally' since I thought GPSLogit was an acceptable data logger. Fortunately, my numbers are no threat to anyone's bragging rights...

I would like to see more USA participation in GPSTC as a way to keep this sport viable in the states. A day at the Hood River Waterfront Park/Event Site is a little unnerving when almost all the windsurfers have grey hair, are outnumbered by kiters 3-1, and the kiters are the 'young guns'. It is very telling when one of the previous 'windsurfing meccas' in the the USA is rapidly becoming dominated by kites and SUPs.

you could also get a canmore gp102 from the internet, they ship all around the globe !

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seanhogan said..
you could also get a canmore gp102 from the internet, they ship all around the globe !

Thanks for the pointer. I was unaware of the canmore product or that it was acceptable for GPSTC.

The price at www.canadagps.com/Canmore_GP-102.html is also very acceptable.

Thanks.

Edit update:
Just looked at the GPSTC rules and the Canmore is NOT listed, but neither is the GW-52. Maybe an update of the GPSTC rules and acceptable devices would also be helpful.

That's the idea behind this thread Barton, to sort out what is acceptable for the GPSTC.

There's some complaint that the GPSLogit/Phone combo isn't that accurate in certain categories yet the GW52 has unusual reading for alphas at 5hz. Also different software gets different results with the GW52.

If the old Foretrex is still acceptable then the phone can't be that bad!

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Roo said..
That's the idea behind this thread Barton, to sort out what is acceptable for the GPSTC.

Oops, kind of stated the obvious didn't I?...

I started out last summer using a Garmin Forerunner 310XT until I discovered that the speed data SUCKED.

Just for grins I just tried to order the Canmore gp-102 from canadagps.com - website stated the canmore 'is not orderable'.

Glad you are pushing this topic, hope it gets resolved by next summer.

Thanks.

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bartontb said..

seanhogan said..
you could also get a canmore gp102 from the internet, they ship all around the globe !

Thanks for the pointer. I was unaware of the canmore product or that it was acceptable for GPSTC.

The price at www.canadagps.com/Canmore_GP-102.html is also very acceptable.

Thanks.

Edit update:
Just looked at the GPSTC rules and the Canmore is NOT listed, but neither is the GW-52. Maybe an update of the GPSTC rules and acceptable devices would also be helpful.

Yes I think the rules/devices section hasn't been updated for a while on GPSTC. I've been posting from my canmore for over a year.
You can find them on ebay and amazon quite easily and cheap.

I now use the canmore watch (fully waterproof,/doppler/1sec recording) works a treat !

side note, the canmore works just as well under a wetsuit as on the arm...awesome reception (much better than any locosys)
I tested two devices at the same itme at those two locations : exact same results.

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seanhogan said..
I now use the canmore watch (fully waterproof,/doppler/1sec recording) works a treat !

Very interested in that watch - what model do you use?

Sorry to be negative, but I think Logit and associated hassles will put off more people than it converts. For introducing people to the GPSTC (which is the best thing which ever happened to windsurfing) a canmore or GW 52 is a much better option. So much less hassle, unless you are just using the logit to record your session without trying to hear what it is saying.

Background to this statement: I am captain of the Pinnaroos GPS team and have used a GT 31 for years but after reading Roo's experiences with the GPSlogit, I thought it had great potential to improve my speeds and I would try it.
I have found the apparatus the most frustrating equipment I have ever used - the phone keeps switching itself off or changing to other functions, I have tried Decrepit's Ferrero box cover but then you have no access to change/see anything once it is in the bag., and getting the phone in the waterproof bag without accidentally turning it off or changing functions is a challenge. Getting the volume loud enough so you can actually hear the speedchat is something I have rarely achieved even after fiddling with phone settings. Mostly I just hear a croak in the background. Salt water corrodes the earphone jack. The ear pieces get pulled out during sailing and the wind noise when the earpieces are in is unpleasant.
If I was introduced to GPS by a logit setup I would give it away as all being too hard. I am close to giving logit the flick anyway, but being the persistent individual that I am I will keep trying. Potentially it is a great tool to help the dedicated speedsurfer but I haven't been able to get it to work for me yet.

Anita no need to be sorry for being negative. That's the sort of feedback we need so people can make a decision on which GPS to use. We just need a list of accepted devices, good or bad, so windsurfers can decide what suits them. As the GPSTC is now international not all devices are readily available in every country so alternatives are needed. Change never happens quickly but it's easy to put together guidelines so newbies can make informed choices.

My POV is that consistency in how you post is more relevant.

99.999?% of us are not going to be contending for a world record.
The GPSTC does not offer any financial or other benefits to competitor or teams that win or place.

So what the problem with GPSLOGIT then? remember accuracy is ± (Plus/Minus) and not always in the positive, it's swings and roundabouts.

I still use a GT11 as my primary GPS and analyze data with Realspeed I only use GPSAR to check an irregularity with a file but still post with Realspeed data wherever possible for consistency.

I don't see what the issue is with posting on GPSTC with a phone and GPSLOGIT as long as that is what you do consistently not picking and choosing between devices and software to get the best result.

It's not cattle stations we're playing for

I'll raise you 2 sheep stations Elmo and see your Cattle Station!

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Windxtasy said..
Sorry to be negative, but I think Logit and associated hassles will put off more people than it converts. For introducing people to the GPSTC (which is the best thing which ever happened to windsurfing) a canmore or GW 52 is a much better option. So much less hassle, unless you are just using the logit to record your session without trying to hear what it is saying.

Background to this statement: I am captain of the Pinnaroos GPS team and have used a GT 31 for years but after reading Roo's experiences with the GPSlogit, I thought it had great potential to improve my speeds and I would try it.
I have found the apparatus the most frustrating equipment I have ever used - the phone keeps switching itself off or changing to other functions, I have tried Decrepit's Ferrero box cover but then you have no access to change/see anything once it is in the bag., and getting the phone in the waterproof bag without accidentally turning it off or changing functions is a challenge. Getting the volume loud enough so you can actually hear the speedchat is something I have rarely achieved even after fiddling with phone settings. Mostly I just hear a croak in the background. Salt water corrodes the earphone jack. The ear pieces get pulled out during sailing and the wind noise when the earpieces are in is unpleasant.
If I was introduced to GPS by a logit setup I would give it away as all being too hard. I am close to giving logit the flick anyway, but being the persistent individual that I am I will keep trying. Potentially it is a great tool to help the dedicated speedsurfer but I haven't been able to get it to work for me yet.

Anita, I want to respond to your comments/frustrations but this is not the thread to do it in, so if you don't mind, I'll transfer my response to this thread: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/logit-musings/

- Barton

We are currently formulating a GPS-TC response. Patience please.

Personally my biggest concern is what happens when the display goes off on some phones, this is where the really big errors occur, and yes they're easy to spot if you know what you're looking for.
But I'd be happier if we could recommend a list of phones that don't have the "display off" problem and have good satellite reception, the half knot resolution isn't such a big issue, it's only going to lead to quarter knot errors, the other two can cause one knot and higher errors.

My Samsung Ace 3 is one such phone, but there's probably cheaper ones out there.

Here's what happened when my Alcatele Pixie3(4)s display turned off
The green line is the number of satellites, you can see this goes crazy at the same time as the speed graph when the display turned off, in the middle section of the graph.




My actual top speed was 28kts, but in the "display off" period a 42kt max speed was registered.

Unfortunately it's all too easy for the display to turn off, this particular instance was caused by a 3 contact music player earphone in the H20 pouch, instead of a 4 contact smart phone plug. But any button accidentally activated or even water pressure on the display during a crash can do it.

So a list of phones that continue to work as normal with the display off would be a great help.

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Roo said..

There's some complaint that the GPSLogit/Phone combo isn't that accurate in certain categories yet the GW52 has unusual reading for alphas at 5hz. Also different software gets different results with the GW52.

Just to clarify this. It was found that RealSpeed has some problems finding Alphas with the 5hz GW-52 data.

But the other software analysis programs work as they should. Using GPS-Results to analyse Alpha 500's, the GW-52 data shows a much smother and more accurate map and speed curve in every case I have tested than a GT-31 used next to it. In short, the 5hz GW-52 is much better for Alphas!

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sailquik said..
>>> In short, the 5hz GW-52 is much better for Alphas!

That's the main reason I'm now posting from the GW52 data.

Select to expand quote

decrepit said..

Unfortunately it's all too easy for the display to turn off, this particular instance was caused by a 3 contact music player earphone in the H20 pouch, instead of a 4 contact smart phone plug. But any button accidentally activated or even water pressure on the display during a crash can do it.

So a list of phones that continue to work as normal with the display off would be a great help.

I'll provide this anecdotal evidence for the Alcatel OneTouch Evolve2:

I have 19 sailing sessions recorded. Looking at each one with GPSResults shows that in ALL the sessions the number of satellites stayed in the 9,10,11 category throughout the entire session (except of course on the 'rare' occasion when I put a divot in the water and submerged the phone, in which case the phone quickly recovered to the 9, 10, 11 satellite category once it surfaced ). This includes the early sessions before I started using the dowels to protect the phone screen and later sessions where the 3 contact music player earphone was causing random switching of music etc during the sailing session. In all sessions, the 'screen ON' selection was ticked.

This doesn't directly address the 'display off' performance question but does represent my preferred (typical) configuration of sailing with the display ON and demonstrates no adverse performance (during this small sample size of sessions).

Here's some comparison measurements from today.

Just got back from a mission to the coast. Ran with GPSLogit on Alcatel One Touch Model 4037T Android 4.4.2 phone on left upper arm and 2 GT31 on right upper arm. I have included both doppler and trackpoint measurements as it gives you a good idea how clean the data stream is.

Max and 2 sec were all at the same time stamp of 8:43:50

Max: Phone 42.590 GT31-1 42.181 +/-0.272 GT31-2 42.259 +/-0.253 Trackpoint: Phone: 42.951 GT31-1 42.533 GT31-2 42.566
2 sec: Phone 42.492 GT31-1 42.143 +/-0.272 GT31-2 42.172 +/-0.253 Trackpoint: Phone: 42.685 GT31-1 42.400 GT31-2 42.358
5 x 10 sec: Phone 38.781 GT31-1 38.558 GT31-2 38.563 Trackpoint: Phone: 38.834 GT31-1 38.830 GT31-2 38.875

10 sec run Phone GT31-1 GT31-2
1 9:16:18 203.4m 39.540 202.5m 39.357 +/- 0.255 202.5m 39.356 +/- 0.253
2 9:43:54 201.7m 39.206 199.4m 38.765 +/- 0.289 199.4m 38.757 +/- 0.258
3 9:56:03 200.9m 39.054 199.5m 38.773 +/- 0.286 199.5m 38.782 +/- 0.284
4 9:21.07 196.8m 38.259 195.7m 38.035 +/- 0.291 195.7m 38.004 +/- 0.277
5 9:32:56 194.7m 37.849 194.8m 37.859 +/- 0.265 194.9m 37.877 +/- 0.254

All in all the phone acquits itself pretty well.

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Trousers said..

seanhogan said..
I now use the canmore watch (fully waterproof,/doppler/1sec recording) works a treat !

Very interested in that watch - what model do you use?

It's called the Trainer
they just released a new version.

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seanhogan said..

Trousers said..

seanhogan said..
I now use the canmore watch (fully waterproof,/doppler/1sec recording) works a treat !

Very interested in that watch - what model do you use?

It's called the Trainer
they just released a new version.

Hi Sean, PM sent to you for more info.

Select to expand quote

Roo said..
Here's some comparison measurements from today.

Just got back from a mission to the coast. Ran with GPSLogit on Alcatel One Touch Model 4037T Android 4.4.2 phone on left upper arm and 2 GT31 on right upper arm. I have included both doppler and trackpoint measurements as it gives you a good idea how clean the data stream is.

Max and 2 sec were all at the same time stamp of 8:43:50

Max: Phone 42.590 GT31-1 42.181 +/-0.272 GT31-2 42.259 +/-0.253 Trackpoint: Phone: 42.951 GT31-1 42.533 GT31-2 42.566
2 sec: Phone 42.492 GT31-1 42.143 +/-0.272 GT31-2 42.172 +/-0.253 Trackpoint: Phone: 42.685 GT31-1 42.400 GT31-2 42.358
5 x 10 sec: Phone 38.781 GT31-1 38.558 GT31-2 38.563 Trackpoint: Phone: 38.834 GT31-1 38.830 GT31-2 38.875

10 sec run Phone GT31-1 GT31-2
1 9:16:18 203.4m 39.540 202.5m 39.357 +/- 0.255 202.5m 39.356 +/- 0.253
2 9:43:54 201.7m 39.206 199.4m 38.765 +/- 0.289 199.4m 38.757 +/- 0.258
3 9:56:03 200.9m 39.054 199.5m 38.773 +/- 0.286 199.5m 38.782 +/- 0.284
4 9:21.07 196.8m 38.259 195.7m 38.035 +/- 0.291 195.7m 38.004 +/- 0.277
5 9:32:56 194.7m 37.849 194.8m 37.859 +/- 0.265 194.9m 37.877 +/- 0.254

All in all the phone acquits itself pretty well.

'Pretty well'???

Well, I guess so if you are measuring with a stretchy string!

I have to say that an objective view of this 10 sec. run data is that the phone is over reading constantly by up to half a knot. Especially since the data from the two GT-31's is consistently extremely close and within 0.01 and 0.03 Kts of each other on all the 10 second runs. (this is why they are so good!)

It can be observed that the Maximin 99% error range of the GT-31's is between 0.253 and 0.291 Kts. This says that we can be 99% sure that the speed is at least what the reading says. To put it another way, if we had 100 GPS recording that run, at least 99 of them should read within the error range stated. But of course, with a Standard Deviation distribution, the vast majority of them would be with a small fraction of this, more like that range we see between the two you have listed, and almost certainly less than 0.1 knots.

For any sort of competition or ranking in our sport, 0.5Knots is a quite significant margin, even for a fun ranking without talking sheep stations!

I think your data just reinforces the case against allowing the Android Phone with GPS-Logit for posting where it counts for the team rankings and probably the top individual rankings.

Of course, this makes our current dilemma even deeper as, apart from the Thingsee One, which is quite expensive, and the Locosys GW-52, which is inexpensive but not as user friendly as the GT-31 to operate, other options for newcomers to the GPS-TC are seriously flawed.

Bottom line. Get a GW-52 for posting and use the GPS-Logit app for fun and useful feedback on the water.

With the current exchange rate it will probably cost you less than US$200 shipped from Australia!

I've been thinking (yes it does happen) a lot about this issue

The logit app seems too complex to use for me
I tried it and was annoyed by :
keeping the display on (battery draining)
screen playing up if touched
speed talk playing tricks
needs a special android version and screen size
can't see a thing on the screen inside the waterproof bag with the sun and water


I tried the Gps Speed Talker free app (playstore) this afternoon



had the phone (cheap huawei) in my camel back inside a zip lock bag
Used bluetooth waterproof(to be confirmed) earphones (jabees) (I did like Decrepit advised : used some vaseline on all connectors)



Quite happy with the results :
Gps app records in doppler and one sec interval
I won't be using the recording, just want the vocal feedback.
clear speed announcement (like logit you choose the min/max speed and the "same speed"no repeat option)

I was using my canmore watch at the same time for posting on gpstc and saw that the speedspeech was matching my "real" speed. (only heard once 29 knts and only did once 29knts)

So my point is rather get a phone (any android version and screen size) with a gps just for audio feedback, use a canmore/gt31/gw52 for posting.
That way you have a cheap phone with you in case you get in trouble, you have audio feedback, and don't have to worry about the screen issues.

my 2 (or more) cents

sean

Wow pretty sad day when a gps is rejected because it's within 0.5% of the GT31 when mounted on the other arm! Considering the canmore and foretrex don't have that level of consistancy it doesn't leave people much in the way of alternatives if they want to participate in the GPSTC.

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sailquik said..

With the current exchange rate it will probably cost you less than US$200 shipped from Australia!

Where do you guys buy your gear?

The only Australian outfit that posts a price for the GW-52 on the web comes in at US$207 WITHOUT shipping. Price from Germany is about $165 WITHOUT shipping...

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..


'Pretty well'???

Well, I guess so if you are measuring with a stretchy string!

I have to say that an objective view of this 10 sec. run data is that the phone is over reading constantly by up to half a knot. Especially since the data from the two GT-31's is consistently extremely close and within 0.01 and 0.03 Kts of each other on all the 10 second runs. (this is why they are so good!)

It can be observed that the Maximin 99% error range of the GT-31's is between 0.253 and 0.291 Kts. This says that we can be 99% sure that the speed is at least what the reading says. To put it another way, if we had 100 GPS recording that run, at least 99 of them should read within the error range stated. But of course, with a Standard Deviation distribution, the vast majority of them would be with a small fraction of this, more like that range we see between the two you have listed, and almost certainly less than 0.1 knots.

Pardon me for asking the following questions, I'm not trying to be a 'buttinskie', just trying to understand the past and future approach used by the GPSTC for qualifying GPS devices.

How was the GT-11, GT-31, and GW-52, Canmore, Foretex, etc. qualified? What was the testing approach used and what was the 'gold standard' used to determine GPS accuracy (multiple devices tested on the same run?, anecdotal? , etc?)? How many units were tested to establish the deviation for qualified units?

Thank you,
Barton

What astounds me about this issue, is that six years down the track from the GT-31 - a good unit in general - we are faced with few affordable/portable/waterproof options and those we have are inferior. How the freak did this happen? Sorry if it's all been covered before.

Just to clarify, my post wasn't about what devices were/should be gpstc allowed, I did hijack the thread.... sorry

I run a freerace comp locally and as long as the gps records at one sec interval all devices are accepted.

I don't think gw52 is the holy grail either, to me it seems to have poor reception (as opposed to the canmore for example) and from what I read on other threads seems to be a bit complicated to run on a computer and not user friendly...

As for Gpstc :

I sort of see the view of those asking for the best device (error/doppler) but being a team challenge, maybe doppler and 1 sec recording should be enough for most every day sailors like me.

After all when it comes to individual speed records, the top guns do post on gps-speedsurfing.com/ don't they ?

My statement is more about logit not being that user friendly and reliable. I'd hate to loose a session just because the screen switched off or phone had no battery left due to screen on.

I've done some testing with two canmore gporter 102+, one on the arm and the other under an impact vest : perfect reception for both and identical results.
But the screen is tiny so forget trying to see your results on the move (or even in daylight at the beach..) best suited for those who can wait to be home and check their speed on ka72

sean

Select to expand quote

seanhogan said..
I've been thinking (yes it does happen) a lot about this issue

The logit app seems too complex to use for me
I tried it and was annoyed by :
keeping the display on (battery draining)
screen playing up if touched
speed talk playing tricks
needs a special android version and screen size
can't see a thing on the screen inside the waterproof bag with the sun and water


I tried the Gps Speed Talker free app (playstore) this afternoon



had the phone (cheap huawei) in my camel back inside a zip lock bag
Used bluetooth waterproof(to be confirmed) earphones (jabees) (I did like Decrepit advised : used some vaseline on all connectors)



Quite happy with the results :
Gps app records in doppler and one sec interval
I won't be using the recording, just want the vocal feedback.
clear speed announcement (like logit you choose the min/max speed and the "same speed"no repeat option)

I was using my canmore watch at the same time for posting on gpstc and saw that the speedspeech was matching my "real" speed. (only heard once 29 knts and only did once 29knts)

So my point is rather get a phone (any android version and screen size) with a gps just for audio feedback, use a canmore/gt31/gw52 for posting.
That way you have a cheap phone with you in case you get in trouble, you have audio feedback, and don't have to worry about the screen issues.

my $15.90 Australian (or more) cents

sean

fixed it for you Sean

Select to expand quote

Roo said..
Wow pretty sad day when a gps is rejected because it's within 0.5% of the GT31 when mounted on the other arm! Considering the canmore and foretrex don't have that level of consistancy it doesn't leave people much in the way of alternatives if they want to participate in the GPSTC.

Nobody's talking about rejecting, we're just trying to come up with a way to cope with our reservations.
And light can be seen at the end of the tunnel.
As Andrew says, patience please.