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elmo said...

sausage said...

elmo said...

lao shi said...

Viagra endurance prize

I'd be up for that

It'd definately raise the bar of the competition

Definately help me "harden up"

We should be then able to sail Hardies and Woodies

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elmo said...

elmo said...

sausage said...

elmo said...

lao shi said...

Viagra endurance prize

I'd be up for that

It'd definately raise the bar of the competition

Definately help me "harden up"

We should be then able to sail Hardies and Woodies

ha ha ha hard to beat that...

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Pugwash said...

elmo said...

elmo said...

sausage said...

elmo said...

lao shi said...

Viagra endurance prize

I'd be up for that

It'd definately raise the bar of the competition

Definately help me "harden up"

We should be then able to sail Hardies and Woodies

ha ha ha hard to beat that...

Could end up being a very stiff competition though.

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Pugwash said...

elmo said...

elmo said...

sausage said...

elmo said...

lao shi said...

Viagra endurance prize

I'd be up for that

It'd definately raise the bar of the competition

Definately help me "harden up"

We should be then able to sail Hardies and Woodies

ha ha ha hard to beat that...

it's easier to beat when hard

Just to get it back on topic - not for long Im sure.

I think the competition is excellent as it is and doesnt need changing BUT

my ideas :

I wondered if a parrallel scoring system that includes some sort of calculated handicap - like a golf handicap for each category I suppose. I dont know the mechanics of how a golfing handicap is calculated but I believe as you post better scores it changes automatically. Maybe it doesnt work as all gold courses are meant to be the same par whereas a windy vs a light day cant really be compared. Which makes me think, what about some measure of best speed vs wind speed - ie 30 knots in 20knots of wind is worth more than 30 in 35 ?

A table for each member of their equipment so they could get stats on what equipment got what scores, and also see which gear got the most use. Possibly also a table of locations (so you could see your PB at Hardies seperately to your PB at Lucky Bay ?)

BUT - I would prefer that Nebbian sails not codes so I dont expect these to be implemented but just FYI.

Since it is a Team Challenge, what about awarding bonus points if any team can get all their members to sail any given day. Points could be graded i.e. a team with more members gets more points deducted from their overall monthly standing. Say each member is worth 0.5 of a point so a 10 person team could effectively knock 5 points off their tally - I am unsure whether this is too much or if my idea is just plain stupid.

I think where it could get interesting is towards end of month where one team is 3 points behind another but organises all the team to sail a given day (maybe a minimum distance per member is set for it to count)

Leave the divisions and scoring as is. A lot of thought went into it in the first place.

+1 for the Bonus points for all team members posting in a given session.

The cockroaches would need to delete inactive members if that was the case though. Some of our team members have never posted. It might be a good time to invite them to continue or be deleted?

GTC membership is partly to encourage people to sail.. If teams know they will be disadvantaged by not having all members sail they are not likely to try to encourage all to join

It seems that between this thread and the claimed speed thread that the general implication is that the 2sec peak is not reliable. I read Sailquicks comment regarding GPS accuracy for measurement of distance and did a quick literature search and there is some research that has found a GPS reliable for accurate measurement of speed, however, the accuracy for the measurement of distance is far less. Mind you the measurement of speed around a bend is far less accurate than that of a straight line.

So why not change the 2 sec peak to a 10 sec time interval. The int'l norm seems to be 5*10sec which is a measure of consistency. So using a persons fastest 10 sec speed would be a more relative measure. It would also allow people that are not experienced at post processing to be able to pick out potential errors with more ease. Lets face it a 2sec peak of 40kts doesn't get questioned when the 5*10 is 32kts - because it gets written off as a freakish gust. But a 10 sec peak of 40kts with a 5*10 of 32 would be an immediate call for review. This does not say that the occurrence could occur - but it might make it easier for novices to see a rudimentary pattern in their data and seek help or checking prior to posting.

From a personal point of view I think the 2 sec peak is a complete waste - it causes the greatest debate garmin v navi, doppler v trackpoint, and the always dubious "here is what my screen said but the data did not download". Those using a navi can set their speed genie to 10 sec as opposed to 2 sec and so on.

Just my thoughts.

BTW the website is excellent, and Ben you should be very proud of the code you've written.

Many thanks DAM71 and others, your comments are very much appreciated

Replacing the 2 second with a 1x10 sec is an intriguing one...


I showed one of the graphic designers at work my mockups for next year's site, and she wrote it off as "too washed out looking" Gunna have to get me a decent colour-scheme soon.

the 2 sec speed is what gives you bragging rights on the beach, it has to stay

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nebbian said...

Many thanks DAM71 and others, your comments are very much appreciated

Replacing the 2 second with a 1x10 sec is an intriguing one...


I showed one of the graphic designers at work my mockups for next year's site, and she wrote it off as "too washed out looking" Gunna have to get me a decent colour-scheme soon.

The "Red Furry" look is in this year, hopefully it will be out for the next

I think the 2 sec has the highest fun factor element to it. We need something that gives us our highest speed, agree with Bundybear here, it gives you beach bragging rights.

Given the problems with the trackpoint vs doppler element, would a substituite be swapping 2 sec for GPS Screen Display? (This is the true beach bragging rights element also) I heard somewhere that this was a way of levelling the playiong field between garmion and navi and eliminating the doppler vs trackpoint argument?

I carry a Garmin foretrex 201 and a NAVI GT 11, but only ever use the data from the Navi. The display speeds vary from equal, to the Garmin being up to two knots faster. For my money a Garmin disply speed isn't worth 2c.

The other obvious problem with display speed is that you can't download it and email it for checking.

You gotta leave the 2 second in though; it's the glamour category. Is Slowy's 50 knot peak not the most memorable stat in the whole challenge?

I fully understand the concept of beach bragging. However, from a competition point of view it is the most unreliable measure in the challenge, with the greatest standard error. As i mentioned earlier from what i have read in this and other threads the 2 sec is the one that causes the greatest deal of debate - so why not can it, and let guys post their 2 sec in their comments to brag about.

Personally I don't see the 2 sec being a decent measure of improvement, not compared to the 1 hr, nm, alpha or even a 10 sec. It can be influenced more by fluke than the others - and that doesn't give the same satisfaction - from my point of view.

I look forward to seeing the outcome for 2009.

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DAM71 said...

I fully understand the concept of beach bragging. However, from a competition point of view it is the most unreliable measure in the challenge, with the greatest standard error. As i mentioned earlier from what i have read in this and other threads the 2 sec is the one that causes the greatest deal of debate - so why not can it, and let guys post their 2 sec in their comments to brag about.

Personally I don't see the 2 sec being a decent measure of improvement, not compared to the 1 hr, nm, alpha or even a 10 sec. It can be influenced more by fluke than the others - and that doesn't give the same satisfaction - from my point of view.

I look forward to seeing the outcome for 2009.

You have a good point there DAM - removing the 2 sec does resolve a lot of these issues to a fair extent, and there is always the comments for the 2 sec or screen readout brag. I think I am with you.

Being right technically is not the most important aspect of the GTC. And technically you are right!!

My issue is participation and giving reasons for to people to join or stay, and not leave or avoid joining.

There are some magical marks/numbers that most people in the GTC will only ever be able to achieve at a 2 sec level, and not in any other categories. The GTC has the 2sec and with all it's statisical reliability and validity issues, it has a huge fun factor!!!!

What about just leaving the 2 sec in but not make it count towards the team points?

Having beeen involved in windsurfing for over 25 years, seen it boom then crash, struggle to survive, and now just have a mini revival, and knowing just a little bit about human psychology, if you wanna kill the sport again or kill the GTC, just start introducing elitism factors again. Elitism pushes the majority of people away.

Be careful what you tamper with.

i think that if ya took the 2 sec it will take away some of the fun side and upset a fair few people but what would you replace it with ?

so i say leave it as it is sounds too me like evey one want to leve the catigories the WAY they are !

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hardie said...

Having beeen involved in windsurfing for over 25 years, seen it boom then crash, struggle to survive, and now just have a mini revival, and knowing just a little bit about human psychology, if you wanna kill the sport again or kill the GTC, just start introducing elitism factors again. Elitism pushes the majority of people away.

Be careful what you tamper with.

Have to agree here.

Although I understand the need to get the most accurate result, and the competitiveness of some of the sailors, I think one of the most attractive parts of this "comp" is the team aspect.
I personally think we should leave it exactly as it is, sure freshen up the colours if you feel the need etc, but just leave it alone.
The team aspect should be promoted, so perhaps monthly incentives on a team basis rather than an individual, anything to get the most of the team involved as possible.

Don't ever flick the 2sec, who gives a rats if it's not 100% reliable and is fluky, the GPSTC is fun fun fun

How many guys here are posting at GPS-SS, that's right not many, why

If you have a cattle station, join both

OK, I think the general idea here is that the existing format seems to work quite well, so let's not mess around with it too much

However I think the idea of putting in a drop down menu (or check box) to select which GPS and calculation method you used is a good one. This makes it clear exactly how the numbers are arrived at. I'll be putting in something like this for next year.

For the fun-loving sailors this isn't much of an issue -- but it is quite important to the more serious guys!

Thanks once again for the valuable insights you've all posted on here, I really appreciate it.

Now get sailing!

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firiebob said...

Don't ever flick the 2sec, who gives a rats if it's not 100% reliable and is fluky, the GPSTC is fun fun fun

How many guys here are posting at GPS-SS, that's right not many, why

If you have a cattle station, join both

"Now get sailing!"
Yep I did,got 2 runs for the day in 45kt squals with lots of rain and had a ball

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kato said...

"Now get sailing!"
Yep I did,got 2 runs for the day in 45kt squals with lots of rain and had a ball

I really enjoy reading others experiences (such as Katos above) as well as posting my data. I think of all of the data the 2 second gives those in and out of the sport are real wow Please keep it.

Kill the 2second.

Ive been using Garmin's and Navis for > 3 years now and the most unreliable measure is the 2s. I've had numerous instances of 2s peaks that are 4-5 knots above a 10s, 100m or 250m run. On close examination ( and it takes a close examination in some cases) - they are usually the result of a catapault, something wierd, cloud cover, water in the GPS etc....

Bragging rites - time to set the standard - make it 10 sec run where at least 5 (2 sec) or 10(1 sec) intervals has been set.

It takes some cohunas to sail at 30+ knots for 500m+ - let us reward and acknowlwedge this.

I know that one more than One occasion I have sent a track to a colleague for verification on a 2s that is high, only to have not registered that speed. Inone instance I spent more than 2 hours looking at a track that had 37+ knot 2s that was really closer to a 32.

KILL THE 2s - Replace it with a meaningful measure not subject to gross error. 10s, 100m or 250m

Dr J

Dr J have you had this much trouble using doppler???
I can believe it with trackpoints.
Doppler will certainly give very high catapult readings, but they should be easy to pick on the map view and speed graph, there's a very sudden stop involved.

Decrepit,

The problems I describe are almost entirely due to the Garmin Units. I now use a GT31 exclusively and I have only had one instance of a really dodgy 2s with a Navi GT11(both trackpoints and doppler - the unit looked like it just lost sight of the satellites) - given the NaviGT11 died next session from water inclusion I think we can forgive this instance.

I still favour swapping the 2s out for a 100m or 250m run. This still rewards the 'one lucky gust' phenonemon (Talk to Vando about yesterday where ll the stars aligned and he clocked a 39 in a most unlikely spot)

100 or 250 rewards a single good short fast run (2s rewards a very short burst)
5 x 10 - rewards consistent fast runs and is usually pretty close to a single 500m
NM rewards a really long fast run and usually quite a bit of work to windward to get the run
Alpha - rewards a great planing gybe
1 hour rewards a lot of fast hard work
Distance rewards those have the time to get on the water.

I'm not sure what the other women in the comp feel but I think that we should keep it as it is. The 2 sec time is really our best chance to do 30 knots at all. It seems that we don't have the weight and strength (or perhaps gear) required to maintain these speeds for longer distances (time). But we are all striving for that elusive 30 knots!

We have seen an increase in the number of women competing and the women's comp has great camarederie. It would be a shame to compromise this.

It would be good to hear what the other women think.