For those of you that do both, which is worse on the body for big impacts with the water?

That's easy, windsurfing is worse for impacts. More hard stuff to hit, eg mast and boom plus you more than likely to be in straps so ankle and foot injuries. Speeds are higher windsurfing so more momentum when you crash.

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supguythesecond said..
For those of you that do both, which is worse on the body for big impacts with the water?

Foiling is inherently more dangerous. You are up higher, and gravity has a tendency to make it hurt more when you finally touch down, especially if you do so on a foil. Putting wave sailing to the side, where windsurfing is much safer, but you can still hurt if you are not safe, you can basically spend life time windsurfing without an injury (or at least ... I did).

Hard to tell when it comes to long term. Windsurf can be basically effortless, but there is the chop that puts a toll on bones. Winging requires more effort and the ergonomics are a bit doubtful, but you do not really feel any chop ...

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duzzi said..

supguythesecond said..
For those of you that do both, which is worse on the body for big impacts with the water?

Foiling is inherently more dangerous. You are up higher, and gravity has a tendency to make it hurt more when you finally touch down, especially if you do so on a foil. Putting wave sailing to the side, where windsurfing is much safer, but you can still hurt if you are not safe, you can basically spend life time windsurfing without an injury (or at least ... I did).

Hard to tell when it comes to long term. Windsurf can be basically effortless, but there is the chop that puts a toll on bones. Winging requires more effort and the ergonomics are a bit doubtful, but you do not really feel any chop ...

Which one are you falling in more consistently on? with speed

I haven't winged in a while but I often windfoil if it's not windy enough to fin.

There is was a large perceived danger of the foil attacking me when falling while winging, as there was the leash bringing it towards me. I wasn't using straps when winging though. When windfoiling I just hang on to the boom and it tends to keep me clear of the foil in all of the most awkward falls (backwards directly over the back of the board).

I've seen people cut by weed fins enough to need stitches, and some people cut themselves while installing their sharp carbon foils. The wingers jump a whole lot more than the windfoilers (myself included), who I haven't seen jumps.

When foiling with speed (my fastest is only 24kts) I've crashed pretty hard and came out okay. Usually I can fall backwards now instead of forward, which has resulted in the most injuries. Mine have been really badly bruised hip and bruised ribs from hitting the mast/boom, but I've also gotten that while finning. Also tweaked my rear foot (sprain) getting caught in the rear strap when falling forward. But I've also sprained my foot getting of my wave board in shallow water when it was not as deep as I was expecting...

Chance seems to play a lot bigger role than the specific setup but who knows, maybe someone has compiled some real stats. But I doubt it as these injuries aren't often reported until they and you in the hospital.

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supguythesecond said..
For those of you that do both, which is worse on the body for big impacts with the water?

I'm still doing both, sometimes on the same day. Overall and in crashes, windsurfing is harder on the body. Big windsurfing catapults are more violent, partly because you tend to go faster. A wing crash when overfoiling and falling on your back can hurt briefly, but a good windsurf catapult leads to a sore neck for a few days. There's probably a slightly higher chance of hitting your gear, or getting hit by it, in winging.

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duzzi said..
Winging requires more effort and the ergonomics are a bit doubtful, but you do not really feel any chop ...

I've been windsurfing for more than 4 decades, and winging for a couple of years. Even though my wing skills are way lower than my windsurf skills, winging is definitely a lot less effort. A 2-hour windsurf session, using the harness the entire time, is more exhausting than a 2-hour wind session without any harness use.
Of course, if a skilled windsurfer starts winging, the first sessions will be more effort, since he'll have to get up more, will likely be on a foil with a lot more drag. Wing beginners often also fail to level the foil once up, and instead plow through the water with a high angle of attack and tons of power in the wing. Wingers coming from windsurfing are especially prone to that, since they are used to having lots of pull when planing. The idea of sheeting out once you get going is rather counter-intuitive to windsurfers.
At the other end of the skill spectrum, very good wingers riding and linking waves while flagging the wing for large parts of their session may also use their legs a lot. But the closest comparison in windsurfing is unhooked wave sailing, which is also a lot more effort than freeriding.

I've crashed at 33knts+ on the fin and thought "meh" and crashed at 20knts on foil and almost quit for the day. I would have thought ding crashes would be painful too, coming from height

Lets get the question right first. I suspect the OP is asking about windsurf foiling / windfoiling, given their question in the SUP forum.

Sup guy pls confirm?

I seen a wing ding nose dive then the 90 cm mast rotate over and just missed the guys neck and hit his helmet - then he limped into the beach. I asked if he was ok - his response was " fk this ! I'm going back to kites"

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supguythesecond said..

duzzi said..

supguythesecond said..
For those of you that do both, which is worse on the body for big impacts with the water?

Foiling is inherently more dangerous. You are up higher, and gravity has a tendency to make it hurt more when you finally touch down, especially if you do so on a foil. Putting wave sailing to the side, where windsurfing is much safer, but you can still hurt if you are not safe, you can basically spend life time windsurfing without an injury (or at least ... I did).

Hard to tell when it comes to long term. Windsurf can be basically effortless, but there is the chop that puts a toll on bones. Winging requires more effort and the ergonomics are a bit doubtful, but you do not really feel any chop ...

Which one are you falling in more consistently on? with speed

I basically never fall with a windsurf ... I might drop the occasional jibe or tack in sub-planing conditions. Ages ago, when equipment was less forgiving I did some catapults with no consequences. I hit a big wood log once, and it was not pleasant. I do not want to think what would have happened on a foil ...

I have barely had a catapult in years on a windsurfer short of being hit by the odd boat

When i get close to my top speed i start to head a little upwind and or sheet out a little.

Windsurfing is very safe so long as you do not push your limits.

I heard someone at the Safety Bay slalom 3 years ago had a very bad catapult in strong winds during one of the races. Was ok but very shaken.

I think he gave up the sport.

My last bad catapult was when i was sailing a 9.2 in 10 to 15 knots.

I got hit by a 18 knot gust from out the blue and before i knew what hit me i got slammed forward hard.

Was ok but big sails are much more dangerous if you get hit by a sudden gust.

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duzzi said..

supguythesecond said..

duzzi said..

supguythesecond said..
For those of you that do both, which is worse on the body for big impacts with the water?

Foiling is inherently more dangerous. You are up higher, and gravity has a tendency to make it hurt more when you finally touch down, especially if you do so on a foil. Putting wave sailing to the side, where windsurfing is much safer, but you can still hurt if you are not safe, you can basically spend life time windsurfing without an injury (or at least ... I did).

Hard to tell when it comes to long term. Windsurf can be basically effortless, but there is the chop that puts a toll on bones. Winging requires more effort and the ergonomics are a bit doubtful, but you do not really feel any chop ...

Which one are you falling in more consistently on? with speed

I basically never fall with a windsurf ... I might drop the occasional jibe or tack in sub-planing conditions. Ages ago, when equipment was less forgiving I did some catapults with no consequences. I hit a big wood log once, and it was not pleasant. I do not want to think what would have happened on a foil ...

Windsurfing I think I've fractured , damaged ribs and chest muscles about 5 x in the last few years. That's with an impact vest. I'm off the water atm with damaged chest muscles due to the rig being ripped from my hands and falling heavily.
I haven't speed sailed for ages and have forgotten all the little things I used to do to keep safe.. Oh plus c 2 years to get up to speed after badly breaking my wrist hitting bottom at speed.

The OP was about impact on water - After experience in many falls, as soon as conditions go above lazy moderate and I want to push harder I wear an impact vest with anything to do with foils, not so with fins.

Now I am trying my hand at faster finning so that may change, but then its the impact with equipment rather than water that spooks me.

The OP was about impact on water - After experience in many falls, as soon as conditions go above lazy moderate and I want to push harder I wear an impact vest with anything to do with foils, not so with fins.

Now I am trying my hand at faster finning so that may change, but then its the impact with equipment rather than water that spooks me.

Windsurfing by a country mile.

After the crashes I've seen where I sail - Wing Dings are very slow to get going again after a hard impact crash - but a lot of them aren't what I would call confident either.

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Grantmac said..
Windsurfing by a country mile.

100%
my winging crashes are much less violent than windsurfing or windfoiling.
one of the reasons I eventually shifted from windfoiling to winging, is much less anxiety about stacking it when pushing it

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Stretchy said..

Grantmac said..
Windsurfing by a country mile.

100%
my winging crashes are much less violent than windsurfing or windfoiling.
one of the reasons I eventually shifted from windfoiling to winging, is much less anxiety about stacking it when pushing it

But winging is waaasy slower than windsurfing.
Let's just put it this way - hit a submerged object at 27 knots on a sailboard - yep it hurts and possibly an injury. 27 knots on a wing and hit a submerged object - ??????

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AusMoz said..

Stretchy said..

Grantmac said..
Windsurfing by a country mile.

100%
my winging crashes are much less violent than windsurfing or windfoiling.
one of the reasons I eventually shifted from windfoiling to winging, is much less anxiety about stacking it when pushing it

But winging is waaasy slower than windsurfing.
Let's just put it this way - hit a submerged object at 27 knots on a sailboard - yep it hurts and possibly an injury. 27 knots on a wing and hit a submerged object - ??????

Wings just don't go that fast, most wingers would be lucky to break 20 knots, and then they have to be quite good to even do that. Around 16-18 knots max so crashes are very forgiving and most don't use straps or a harness so it is super simple to eject.

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airsail said..

AusMoz said..

Stretchy said..

Grantmac said..
Windsurfing by a country mile.

100%
my winging crashes are much less violent than windsurfing or windfoiling.
one of the reasons I eventually shifted from windfoiling to winging, is much less anxiety about stacking it when pushing it

But winging is waaasy slower than windsurfing.
Let's just put it this way - hit a submerged object at 27 knots on a sailboard - yep it hurts and possibly an injury. 27 knots on a wing and hit a submerged object - ??????

Wings just don't go that fast, most wingers would be lucky to break 20 knots, and then they have to be quite good to even do that. Around 16-18 knots max so crashes are very forgiving and most don't use straps or a harness so it is super simple to eject.

Yep I know they aren't fast so that what makes me think the original question is so fkn dumb

the danger I see with winging is that you cannot hang on to the boom in a crash, so there is always the possibility to hit the foil.

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AusMoz said..

Stretchy said..

Grantmac said..
Windsurfing by a country mile.

100%
my winging crashes are much less violent than windsurfing or windfoiling.
one of the reasons I eventually shifted from windfoiling to winging, is much less anxiety about stacking it when pushing it

But winging is waaasy slower than windsurfing.
Let's just put it this way - hit a submerged object at 27 knots on a sailboard - yep it hurts and possibly an injury. 27 knots on a wing and hit a submerged object - ??????

Probably rip the back off my board, but still less painful than on my windsurfer as I'll just float forward until I run out of leash. I'm not good enough to do 27kts winging yet, but I have stacked at 23kts. Much less of a drama on the wing

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AusMoz said..

airsail said..

AusMoz said..

Stretchy said..

Grantmac said..
Windsurfing by a country mile.

100%
my winging crashes are much less violent than windsurfing or windfoiling.
one of the reasons I eventually shifted from windfoiling to winging, is much less anxiety about stacking it when pushing it

But winging is waaasy slower than windsurfing.
Let's just put it this way - hit a submerged object at 27 knots on a sailboard - yep it hurts and possibly an injury. 27 knots on a wing and hit a submerged object - ??????

Wings just don't go that fast, most wingers would be lucky to break 20 knots, and then they have to be quite good to even do that. Around 16-18 knots max so crashes are very forgiving and most don't use straps or a harness so it is super simple to eject.

Yep I know they aren't fast so that what makes me think the original question is so fkn dumb

Perfectly valid question that really doesn't warrant the derogatory response

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Stretchy said..
Perfectly valid question that really doesn't warrant the derogatory response

Perfectly stated, by someone who windsurfs and wings and knows what the crashes feel like.

In both windsurfing and winging, it's a good idea to hold on to the boom / handles when crashing. But in windsurfing, that's primarily to reduce the chance of damage to the board. If the board stops, holding on or being hooked in while the sail is loaded accelerates you straight towards the water.

In winging, holding on in a crash has a very different effect, since the wing keeps flying. There often is some acceleration that can be seen in GPS data, but that's usually floating through the air under the wing - that's a lot of fun. Very different.

As for the speed, sure, slower speeds make wing crashes softer. Seeing the slower speeds as an argument against winging makes as much sense as saying "I don't wave sail because that's slower than speedsailing".

Wings trade speed for freedom of movement, including flat water jumps which even freestyle can't match.
Intermediates can do upwind foiling tacks or even 360s. Riding small swell for hundreds of meters downwind then getting back upwind in a few tacks.

Speed is a convenient metric because you can measure it. But it's only one metric and in gusty conditions average speed tells a different story. You can pump wing gear through lulls that will have a windsurfer swimming.

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Grantmac said..
Wings trade speed for freedom of movement, including flat water jumps which even freestyle can't match.
Intermediates can do upwind foiling tacks or even 360s. Riding small swell for hundreds of meters downwind then getting back upwind in a few tacks.

That's my main point of jealousy when seeing wingers. The same mobility is much harder to learn on windfoil.

Well from what I seen so far - Wings are for 0 - 15 knots then its too windy for them. From what I've seen so far - wings are very scarce when the wind gets to 15 knots and above - Don't want to risk injury or going over 20knots on them is too fast ? The original question sounds like it is from someone who has done neither and going full caution before they leap into one or the other.

Maybe Supguy needs to watch a few Youtubes of crashes from Wings and Windsurfing so he can get the idea.

0-15 was probably the case in early days, but I think much less so now.
for me winging is 10 - 20kts and windsurfing is 20 - 30+kts. This is not because winging is too scary in 20+, it's because this is when windsurfing is most fun.
if foiling in 20+, I'd much prefer to be on a wing than a windfoil as you're much less impacted by strong gusts

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boardsurfr said..

Stretchy said..
Perfectly valid question that really doesn't warrant the derogatory response

Perfectly stated, by someone who windsurfs and wings and knows what the crashes feel like.

In both windsurfing and winging, it's a good idea to hold on to the boom / handles when crashing. But in windsurfing, that's primarily to reduce the chance of damage to the board. If the board stops, holding on or being hooked in while the sail is loaded accelerates you straight towards the water.

In winging, holding on in a crash has a very different effect, since the wing keeps flying. There often is some acceleration that can be seen in GPS data, but that's usually floating through the air under the wing - that's a lot of fun. Very different.

As for the speed, sure, slower speeds make wing crashes softer. Seeing the slower speeds as an argument against winging makes as much sense as saying "I don't wave sail because that's slower than speedsailing".

In most cases for windsurfing unless you in the waves - you crash then don't have have to worry about the equipment coming back on you. Wing dings - you crash etc then you need to know where that swinging rotating mast is heading - I can see its only a matter of time b4 we see a decent chop on a wing dinger or a fatal. Really hope it doesn't happen but from what I seen- it's gonna happen.

And meanwhile away from the local....
?si=By_a11NWKTewLjN8
I would not take the standard of winging by the kooky pond crowd as the general ability of most on foil...
No matter your poison. Windfoil, wing or fin. Start pushing and there is an element of risk...

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Mr Keen said..
And meanwhile away from the local....

?si=By_a11NWKTewLjN8
I would not take the standard of winging by the kooky pond crowd as the general ability of most on foil...
No matter your poison. Windfoil, wing or fin. Start pushing and there is an element of risk...

My last sail at the pond - doing 32 knots along the small speed bank and a wing ding decides to do a turn right on me - lucky I was the one watching where I was going and avoided it but I didn't mince my words to that MF!
That Wing Ding was not any of the locals who sail there - Same guy got put into line by the other wingers there that arvo for failing to look and hitting the sand banks.

Insurance for any of these sports is going to be mandatory sooner rather than later!