Today I found this video and it hits exactly on what mistakes the Windsurfing industry made, as well as what he explains about the foiling industry. I was involved intimately in the windsurfing industries early development, as an early adopter and with experience in retail, and I saw all the same mistakes made by the windsurfing industry that he says are being made by the foiling industry. Sadly, although in general the windsurfing industry seems to have leaned from most of these mistakes, some are still evident to some degree.

This is the reason I was so reluctant to be an early adopter when the Kitesurfing stuff first took off. I knew then, and this was very much confirmed by my subsequent observations, that Kiting would go through a very rapid evolution, and that it would be customers, unwittingly doing a lot of the R&D for most, if not all the brands. Having seen that happen so starkly, I was even more reluctant to jump in as an early adopter of foiling. And now, with a few years of hindsight, I am confident that it was the right move for me. That is not to say that I don't want to get foiling. I most certainly do. I am quite excited by the possibilities. For me it's just a matter of when I feel comfortable with, and see good evidence that the industry has matured and got the the stage that this video advocates.

I am interested in the experiences of those who did jump in early and has gone through the evolution of wind foiling and wing foiling. I have a lot of respect for those early adopters, and would like to hear their take on it.

No regrets on being one of the first adopters of wind foiling. Got me out when nothing other than a raceboard would have.

Gen 1 winging was pretty trash and I abandoned it until Gen 3 stuff was available. It's been brilliant since then. Foils have gotten slicker and wings a bit tighter but that's been incremental.

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Grantmac said..
No regrets on being one of the first adopters of wind foiling. Got me out when nothing other than a raceboard would have.

Gen 1 winging was pretty trash and I abandoned it until Gen 3 stuff was available. It's been brilliant since then. Foils have gotten slicker and wings a bit tighter but that's been incremental.

Do you ride 'freeride' or 'race' gear?

Andrew I'll watch that video tonight but please just get some foiling gear and give it a go, at our age sitting on the fence waiting for the best time has it's drawbacks, before we know it we might fall off it
I've been winging for a few years now although I'm far from great at it, I really enjoy it. I still have my original gear, one wing, one foil and one board, I'm only interested in cruising around in light wind as windsurfing is still my thing when it's windy. I look at it as just a different hobby with a lot more time on water and new mates. I leave my GPS at home, no idea what speeds or distance etc.

Getting back to my gear, it's about four years old now and it's still giving me heaps of pleasure, I'm glad I didn't wait longer.

I started in 2019 buying a second hand first gen Naish foil. First few months did not know what I was doing, had the wrong board etc.
In my opinion the most important advancements for freeriding were:
- Buy a dedicated foil board
- Longer fuse
- Start with a big front wing to slow everything down
- Twin tracks to move the foil mast forward or backwards
Since about 2022 more than great advancements it has been refinements, so you can start foiling Daffy !
And I use the Koncept sails for foiling 4.0, 4.4, 5.0 and 5.8

Almost 5 years on and I still have fun on this set up.

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sailquik said..

Grantmac said..
No regrets on being one of the first adopters of wind foiling. Got me out when nothing other than a raceboard would have.

Gen 1 winging was pretty trash and I abandoned it until Gen 3 stuff was available. It's been brilliant since then. Foils have gotten slicker and wings a bit tighter but that's been incremental.

Do you ride 'freeride' or 'race' gear?

I've ridden both but gravitate to freeride gear.

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firiebob said..
Andrew I'll watch that video tonight but please just get some foiling gear and give it a go, at our age sitting on the fence waiting for the best time has it's drawbacks, before we know it we might fall off it
I've been winging for a few years now although I'm far from great at it, I really enjoy it. I still have my original gear, one wing, one foil and one board, I'm only interested in cruising around in light wind as windsurfing is still my thing when it's windy. I look at it as just a different hobby with a lot more time on water and new mates. I leave my GPS at home, no idea what speeds or distance etc.

Getting back to my gear, it's about four years old now and it's still giving me heaps of pleasure, I'm glad I didn't wait longer.

He already has a board n foil to try wind foiling on. Just resisting the push that I'm giving him

I absolutely love freeride windfoiling......Port Phillip Bay is just like one massive skate part and chasing swells is a hoot. I have windsurfed once in 2 years and can foil in 10 to 35 knots...

My first ever time with a windfoil was in the summer of 2017 at the local club, using a Bic carbon foil combined with a slalom board. It took me 15 minutes to fly more than 500m. At that time I was focused on finned slalom racing. I was also aware that foil R&D was just beginning, so I decided to wait...
I was having fun using "fast" fin materials but the group of slalom lovers was slowly decreasing. Races (organized and participated) were becoming rarer and rarer and, to stay motivated, I made the transition to gps-scoring.
In the spring of 2021, a few months after a bad windsurfing injury, I bought my first foil.
With my first experience in mind, STUPIDLY I thought I could bypass the beginner period and I bought a foil that turned out to be too technical (and difficult to resell without losing a lot of money).
In fact, it was possible to find the right adjustments (compared to what foils did in those years) on the brand's website but they were absolutely not implementable by a beginner.
It's a lesson that I learned the hard way and that kept me away from fun for more than a year and a half. I continued to read and watch everything possible that could get me out of that situation but (still stupidly) the many years and good skills in fin did not allow me to be clear-headed and critical enough about things. I remember the discussions about the length of the harness lines, the mast rake, the mast base placing, the height of the boom, the size of the sail compared to the wind, etc. ... Hours and hours spent in the water full of frustration, with declining self-esteem and smiling audiences ...
Tired and on the verge of giving up, I decided to change equipment and approach. Using a freeride front wing for 6 months the progress was solid and such that I could fly even with 25 kts. I learned that the needs of beginners are very different from those who know how to use the harness efficiently. The first ones will benefit from using a large front wing + a LIGHT sail with enough surface area to be able to reach a certain speed and take off + not too long harness lines + upright stance. The second ones (who know how to pump the sail to take off, use the harness well and quickly generate "apparent wind") will do almost as they do in slalom fin = large sail + small wing + long lines + squat stance = speed; OR very small sail + mini board = fun carving or freestyle.

Even though I am lucky enough to live on a windy island, I often need to drive to get to the right windy spots. I have to say that this was starting to bore me. Since I started windfoiling, the miles in the car have decreased and the sessions have doubled. My back pain has become rarer, but in almost 3 years of foiling I have taken more hits than I have in 35 years of windsurfing! From the frustrations I was telling you about, I have moved on to the addition on the fly!

I was a late starter to windfoiling for the reasons given, version 1 of any kit will soon be improved on.
I've no regrets about my choice of board when I started foiling in 2021, AHD Compact 83. The AFS foil, F1080 is ok, was reasonably priced, but as another 2 sailors here also found out that once over 20 knots the short fuselage (probably) wasnt that stable. I bought a Phantom foil and its so much better. That is a freeride 'Z' foil, 1000cm2. Phantom havent left the average sailor like myself behind, as Mario was suggesting. Their slalom foils fit on the 'Z' mast/fuselage, I added a 730cm2.

I think its safe to assume that nowadays kit has gone through a few cycles of development and is now fine. But as Mario's video mentions, Just be careful of high performance kit where the brand cant turn out consistent products.

You cant trust all 'reviews' on forums either. Remember Sandman1212 or whatever his username was? He said the F1080 was fine. Likewise on the old Boards forum someone saying their Naish board was brilliant, but as soon as he upgraded he said the new kit was so much better (although he said all his kit was the best iirc). Beware of those 'reviewers' who dont post video footage to back what they say up. Then there are the sponsored sailors reviewing kit.

My experience is slightly unusual because I did not have a strong windsurfing background before I picked up windsurf foiling. I also tried winging at one point and still have my 6m wing but I haven't used it in years.

My progression went from windsup to a hybrid foil board (fanatic blast) in 2020. Now I mostly foil, but fin when it's windy enough, as it is not that windy here.

Finally got some decent windsurfing foil jibes after many failed tries within the past year or so. My last session, it was windy enough to use a 6.7 on fin so I had an awesome time remembering what it was like to catch small swell and go fast without having to worry about altitude control like on a foil. And, I was closer than ever to a full planing jibe (meaning I make it 3/4 of the way through planing speed, fall off for a moment, then get back planing) on fin than ever as all the work on foil helped. I think I can solve that on a good windy day with flat water, I just need to change my exit angle a little bit. I would have never been able to tell without the foil jibing experience...

But windsurf foiling and regular windsurfing play very well with each other. Sometimes the gear can serve both purposes, sometimes it can't. It really depends on how windy it is. My foil sails aren't great fin sails but I can use them for that, and my windy freeride (really freestyle sails) can be used well on both fin and foil. But a dedicated foil board makes a huge difference.

I was greedy in approaching new foils and all of that earlier, but I've settled on a separate race and freeride foil setup. That is not necessary by any means. And right now, those are still a generation or two back and I don't have a strong reason to upgrade other than sheer desire to get a little bit more speed and lightwind lift.

Similar to grantmac's experience I have always wanted to sail in light, and variable, conditions. He talked about longboards. I went hardover into formula and really liked it. As I got older (76 now) I found it increasingly difficult to handle the giant sails that are required for (fin) formula. So, in 2017, after foiling had made a good start, Sailworks talked me into foiling. I bit and have never looked back. My stuff is all freeride, and I love it. In light conditions, instead of a 11.5 sail on a formula board, I now use a 7.0 on a foil.

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kato said..

firiebob said..
Andrew I'll watch that video tonight but please just get some foiling gear and give it a go, at our age sitting on the fence waiting for the best time has it's drawbacks, before we know it we might fall off it
I've been winging for a few years now although I'm far from great at it, I really enjoy it. I still have my original gear, one wing, one foil and one board, I'm only interested in cruising around in light wind as windsurfing is still my thing when it's windy. I look at it as just a different hobby with a lot more time on water and new mates. I leave my GPS at home, no idea what speeds or distance etc.

Getting back to my gear, it's about four years old now and it's still giving me heaps of pleasure, I'm glad I didn't wait longer.

He already has a board n foil to try wind foiling on. Just resisting the push that I'm giving him

He must still have that attachment to drag? When we foil we realise how we have spent the past 35 years fighting drag.

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Te Hau said..

He must still have that attachment to drag? When we foil we realise how we have spent the past 35 years fighting drag.

A low speed yes I agree. High speed No.
I WingFoil as it's easier to get kit to the water and negotiate the sandbars. Go windsurfing when the water is flat and foil when the wind gets up.

I think I've loved windsurfing as much as the keenest windsurfers out there. My health and body has meant that even short windsurfing sessions have been brutal for me physically. Everyone said "take up windfoiling its easier on the body". I was lucky that some good mates lent me gear, it was intially winging gear and i found it too difficult initially so I gave up. I then bought a board I could windfoil on. The learning curve was easier, and eventually got windfoiling. But I didnt like it. I saw no benefit over windsurfing for my body and health issues and I didnt like the feeling of windfoiling, even though you could get up on the foil in the lightest of winds that you could never plane on a windsurfer. At that time, I still dabbled in windsurfing, and the last windsurf session I had led to a major health problem which put me off the water for 9 months, and I didnt want to go near a windsurf rig after that, so decided to give Winging a go.

I then traded in my windfoiling board for a bigger more stable wing foiling board and have been winging for about 4 months. Initially it has been quite a steep learning curve and my windfoiling experience didnt help at all unfortunately. Now that I'm getting the hang of it, I'm enjoying it immensely. Its so much easier on my health and my body, and while its very different from windsurfing it is still a great feeling. I wish I had the physiology to keep windsurfing, but winging has saved me from the severe depression of having to give up windsurfing. Nothing will ever match my peak windsurfing experiences = Speedsailing LG, Lilacs NM, WAvesailing Maui, Speedsailing Shark Bay Wavesailing Geraldton, Avalon, and Margaret River. However, Winging is magic for me, I wouldnt bother with Windfoiling again too intense for me, and unless you want to foil in the lightest of winds, which is its advantage over windsurfing, Winging is where the Joy is at!! My 3 cents. Its it 3 or 2 cents?

Ps. Reason I didnt like windfoiling was it was too intense, not what I was looking for, it was like driving a Formula 1 racing car, whereas winging is the floaty ride of driving a Cadillac

Pps. For every older windsurfer who's struggling with windsurfing, and dreading the day you cant do it anymore, Winging is your saviour, it will keep you going for years of health, fitness and joy. The issue is getting over that hump of 2 to 3 months of a steep learning curve.

Ppps. I still windsurf when its ideal conditions, and i limit myself to 30 minutes. For a comparison after a 30 minute windsurf session, I feel worse, more sore, more inflammatory response, and my health issue gets triggered, than after 2 hours winging.

Pppps. I've felt like a traitor to windsurfing and my windsurfing friends now that I predominantly wingfoil.

My take from the video wasn't that windfoiling killed windsurfing, but more that...
1) initially they brought prematurely designed foils to market that were too hard to ride so only the most stubborn stuck with it or progressed
2) too much of the early market was race-ish, whereas most of the target audience were non-racers who were looking to get going in non-planing winds, and they weren't looking for a looked in race foil ride and they didn't have big race/freerace sails to make those race-ish foils work
3) the foil designs were often not compatible with future designs

Winging foils on the other hand were much more usable to that non-racer market, and the early wings were still good enough for people to shred and progress

I get a lot of ads from AliExpress for bits and pieces of foils at much lower prices than I'd have to pay if I bought from a shop.
Has anybody here ever tried buying from them? If so, is the gear up to date or maybe just excess inventory from a year or two ago?

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Mr Milk said..
I get a lot of ads from AliExpress for bits and pieces of foils at much lower prices than I'd have to pay if I bought from a shop.
Has anybody here ever tried buying from them? If so, is the gear up to date or maybe just excess inventory from a year or two ago?

a knowledgable buyer will recognize that some of the ali express foils are direct copies of existing manufacturers making them mostly compatible. Best to buy a know entity used I reckon if you are uninformed

I'm wary of cheap knock-offs as I tried it once. One example in particular were harness lines that snapped. Haven't had sudden failures like that with anything branded (with the exception of large high carbon SDM race masts).

For the budget minded used gear is plentiful.
Or if you fancy new without paying for a dealer network then Going do a good job.

Sailquik,
As you come from a windsurfing background, I highly recommend that you try Windfoiling first. If you feel the need you can Wingfoil later.

The advantages of windfoiling are:
Less gear to get started. You already have sails, masts and booms.
First time out, you will be able to sail long distances and easily return to your starting spot.
After a while windfoiling will feel like windsurfing. You will enjoy feeling the power in the sail and the feeling of a smooth gybe.

Buy a quality secondhand beginner foil of at least 1250 sq cm for your body weight and a foil board around 85cm wide with 130 litres volume. Get an experienced foiler to set up the position of the foil in the tracks and your sailing mast track position. It's alomost impossible to do this as a beginner.
Final step change username from Sailquik to Foilslow

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tbwonder said..
Sailquik,
As you come from a windsurfing background, I highly recommend that you try Windfoiling first. If you feel the need you can Wingfoil later.

The advantages of windfoiling are:
Less gear to get started. You already have sails, masts and booms.
First time out, you will be able to sail long distances and easily return to your starting spot.
After a while windfoiling will feel like windsurfing. You will enjoy feeling the power in the sail and the feeling of a smooth gybe.

Buy a quality secondhand beginner foil of at least 1250 sq cm for your body weight and a foil board around 85cm wide with 130 litres volume. Get an experienced foiler to set up the position of the foil in the tracks and your sailing mast track position. It's alomost impossible to do this as a beginner.
Final step change username from Sailquik to Foilslow

Daffy,

Great advice from Andrew. I started in Jan 2021 on a 75cm wide x 125 litre board and 1400 mm2 medium aspect foil and 6.0m crossover sail. This got me going in 10+ knots. I soon added 5.0m and 4.0m sails and smaller 1000mm2 foil to keep me going in 20+ knots. When first learning stable flight you'll experience a curious combination of exhilaration and terror. Once you have your gybes down pat the world is your oyster.

Then you'll have to choose whether you want to chase speed or swells. I chase swells, foils turn mush into great fun.

Enjoy the journey.

Hi Andrew this summer on the Southern Lakes in NZ l have been foiling with a 4 m or 5 m at the start of a session then as the wind has increased change board to a FSW and blasted around. Have had more time on the water than ever.

Andrew, I would definetely try wing or windfoiling for the times you get down to your favourite spot only to find the 20 knot breeze is only 12 knots. I had a stunning time last night on my wingfoil gear in about 14-16 knots last night cutting and weaving in the small swell at Altona. I started kite-foiling three seasons ago then tried wing foiling and found Shallow Inlet the best place on earth to learn. I started with a landboard there at low tide then a massive front wing with huge drag for my first flights. (I reckon we cope ok with the upper body strength as we've a long history sailing). Now with efficient foils the load on the body is minimal and it's bliss. There's a heap of good s/h gear around as well. Give it a go!

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hardie said..
I think I've loved windsurfing as much as the keenest windsurfers out there. My health and body has meant that even short windsurfing sessions have been brutal for me physically. Everyone said "take up windfoiling its easier on the body". I was lucky that some good mates lent me gear, it was intially winging gear and i found it too difficult initially so I gave up. I then bought a board I could windfoil on. The learning curve was easier, and eventually got windfoiling. But I didnt like it. I saw no benefit over windsurfing for my body and health issues and I didnt like the feeling of windfoiling, even though you could get up on the foil in the lightest of winds that you could never plane on a windsurfer. At that time, I still dabbled in windsurfing, and the last windsurf session I had led to a major health problem which put me off the water for 9 months, and I didnt want to go near a windsurf rig after that, so decided to give Winging a go.

I then traded in my windfoiling board for a bigger more stable wing foiling board and have been winging for about 4 months. Initially it has been quite a steep learning curve and my windfoiling experience didnt help at all unfortunately. Now that I'm getting the hang of it, I'm enjoying it immensely. Its so much easier on my health and my body, and while its very different from windsurfing it is still a great feeling. I wish I had the physiology to keep windsurfing, but winging has saved me from the severe depression of having to give up windsurfing. Nothing will ever match my peak windsurfing experiences = Speedsailing LG, Lilacs NM, WAvesailing Maui, Speedsailing Shark Bay Wavesailing Geraldton, Avalon, and Margaret River. However, Winging is magic for me, I wouldnt bother with Windfoiling again too intense for me, and unless you want to foil in the lightest of winds, which is its advantage over windsurfing, Winging is where the Joy is at!! My 3 cents. Its it 3 or 2 cents?

Ps. Reason I didnt like windfoiling was it was too intense, not what I was looking for, it was like driving a Formula 1 racing car, whereas winging is the floaty ride of driving a Cadillac

Pps. For every older windsurfer who's struggling with windsurfing, and dreading the day you cant do it anymore, Winging is your saviour, it will keep you going for years of health, fitness and joy. The issue is getting over that hump of 2 to 3 months of a steep learning curve.

Ppps. I still windsurf when its ideal conditions, and i limit myself to 30 minutes. For a comparison after a 30 minute windsurf session, I feel worse, more sore, more inflammatory response, and my health issue gets triggered, than after 2 hours winging.

Pppps. I've felt like a traitor to windsurfing and my windsurfing friends now that I predominantly wingfoil.

I've bought a beginners wingfoil setup. I got sick of slogging around in the patchy 8-13kts winds we often get while the wings flew past.
I'm at the beginning stage.
I used to look at winging and think that it was an easier sport and not as hard on the body as windsurfing. It probably will be when I get over the hump.
It's been a really good season here for windsurfing with better wind than usual. I look at the wind and think " I can have a ball windsurfing in that or spend all my time falling in and clambering back onto the wingboard ..I then go finning..
I've got to start spending more time on winging. I'm at the stage where I get up on the foil but fall off too soon to experience it. My windsurfing habits are going against me atm. It's nothing like it..
I used to dread going winging worrying about whether I'd be able to stand up , how to use the wing , wearing out after falling in a few times etc.. At least now I'm starting to feel I'm close to figuring out what I'm doing wrong.
I'm up to no 15 session but most have been in patchy , too light wind and only about 2kms distance so not enough to really learn. I also haven't had anyone around to tell me what I'm doing wrong..
Time for another go tomorrow?
My aim is to have somethjing to use in crappy light winds, coming back from injury and when I'm too old to cope with the fin ..

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tbwonder said..
Sailquik,
As you come from a windsurfing background, I highly recommend that you try Windfoiling first. If you feel the need you can Wingfoil later.

The advantages of windfoiling are:
Less gear to get started. You already have sails, masts and booms.
First time out, you will be able to sail long distances and easily return to your starting spot.
After a while windfoiling will feel like windsurfing. You will enjoy feeling the power in the sail and the feeling of a smooth gybe.

Buy a quality secondhand beginner foil of at least 1250 sq cm for your body weight and a foil board around 85cm wide with 130 litres volume. Get an experienced foiler to set up the position of the foil in the tracks and your sailing mast track position. It's alomost impossible to do this as a beginner.
Final step change username from Sailquik to Foilslow

I avoided windfoiling because I didn't like the look of the catapulting learning curve. I've had 6 separate broken rib episodes over the years from windsurfing stacks and don't want anymore.
Still, I'm starting to think trying Windfoil 1st in lightwind would be easier than winging.
All you have to learn is the foiling.
Once you get the hang of that you can go to winging.
I've never foiled . With winging you have to learn how to stand up , control the wing and foil..all with windsurfing habits which work against you.
I think winging will be great once I get the idea of foiling.

Still surprised that the trimming wand hasn't been used in windsurfing, it would make foiling so much easier

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Be nice in theory but there's more variables with a moving mast and Gumby

I'm a crap windsurfer who windsurfed for 5-6 years over a decade ago before getting back into it last year. One of the reasons I got back into it was wanting to foil. My progression since last year has been windsurfing -> windfoiling -> wingfoiling. Not because I like wind or wing foiling more than fin windsurfing but just because foiling was new and fun it unlocked lighter-wind opportunities when I'd struggle to plane on my biggest fin board. As a result I haven't touched my fin boards for over 9 months. I'm not selling them yet, but I just want to get better at foiling with the wing.

My observations on some of the discussion here:
Wing foiling is easier on the body in some ways. I can go winging for 3+ hours without needing a harness. When foiling in light wind I can hold the wing with literally one finger on each hand and it provides enough power to keep foiling. Foiling is also much more gentle on your knees & legs than slapping over chop on a board, which might suit people with lower body issues. However, getting back on the board and going again after you fall off can be much more difficult than waterstarting on the fin board, and this difficulty imo increases as the chop and wind increases.

Wing foiling for me is more fun than wind foiling. You're standing more centred over the board so it feels more like you're standing on the foil and controlling the flight with your two feet rather than standing off to the side and needing to worry about a third pressure point (the mast foot) affecting your trim.

Wing foiling is much easier to transport & set up. I can throw my board, foil, helmet/impact vest and two wings in the back of my car. My windsurfing gear needs to be tied down on roofracks. If you've got a van this is a non-issue but if you're not windsurfing you probably dont need a van in the first place. I think it's slightly (maybe 2-3 minutes) quicker to rig up and pack away which is an incremental gain each time.

There are a few new risks with winging, the most obvious one being hitting the foil. With footstraps and the mast connected to the board, it's relatively easy to keep the foil away from you while falling (or not even worrying about it if you're just finning). With wing foiling you can actually fall in the opposite direction to your board and land right on the foil. That's a scary thought and why I have started wearing an impact vest. I'm sure there's technique involved too and as I continue to improve I'll fall less frequently and more safely, but for now it's definitely something I'm conscious of.

Long term I reckon I'll wing in lighter wind and windsurf on the fin in stronger wind, but time will tell. I no longer have the ability to windfoil without buying a new board as my windfoil board broke due to a manufacturing fault, which is a shame. But foiling is really fun and I just bought a 3 metre wing so...

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sboardcrazy said..

I think winging will be great once I get the idea of foiling.

If you want to learn foiling first give efoiling a try. You can do it in Manly, for example.

But honestly I've found winging easier to learn than windsurfing and foiling is definitely easier on a wing than with a sail because you've only got to worry about your own weight and body position.