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Manuel7 said..
You got it! If I understand you correctly, the sail sinks sometimes when you're flipping it over while being behind the clew.

On skinny masts and narrow boards, I never do this. Reason is the wind will catch and drive the mast towards the bottom.

Instead I do 2 whole body strokes to reorient the gear and have the mast on the wind side.

Other important thing, never try to lift the sail while the boom clips are under water, it'll bury the clew unless you pull really hard the mast into the wind and get lucky.

If the clew is buried, flip the board up (if needed) grab the mast and pull it hard upwind/up wave, it'll speed up the sail flattening and rising up to the surface.

More tips and tricks: windsurfing.lepicture.com/

Some good tips. I'll pay more attention to whether the clew is under the water before I try.

If the sail is in the wrong direction, if you don't want to flip the sail, then spin the board around instead.

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John340 said..
If the sail is in the wrong direction, if you don't want to flip the sail, then spin the board around instead.

I thought of that..but then it's going the wrong way!

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sboardcrazy said..

John340 said..
If the sail is in the wrong direction, if you don't want to flip the sail, then spin the board around instead.

I thought of that..but then it's going the wrong way!

Not a problem, you can gybe well.

Regular sail flipping, you have to pull on the boom guiding the mast upwind after the flip so the sail catches some wind and fly. At best you can keep flying it, at worst it will hit the water but lay flat and be easy to pull back up to go again.

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elmo said..
Forget how to gybe and your water starts will improve

I agree with Elmo. It's clearly because your gybes are too good

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John340 said..

sboardcrazy said..

John340 said..
If the sail is in the wrong direction, if you don't want to flip the sail, then spin the board around instead.

I thought of that..but then it's going the wrong way!

Not a problem, you can gybe well.

Not as well in big chop..

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needsalt said..

elmo said..
Forget how to gybe and your water starts will improve

I agree with Elmo. It's clearly because your gybes are too good

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sboardcrazy said..

John340 said..

sboardcrazy said..

John340 said..
If the sail is in the wrong direction, if you don't want to flip the sail, then spin the board around instead.

I thought of that..but then it's going the wrong way!

Not a problem, you can gybe well.

Not as well in big chop..

Practice makes perfect

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John340 said..

sboardcrazy said..

John340 said..

sboardcrazy said..

John340 said..
If the sail is in the wrong direction, if you don't want to flip the sail, then spin the board around instead.

I thought of that..but then it's going the wrong way!

Not a problem, you can gybe well.

Not as well in big chop..

Practice makes perfect

Yes. I've given up on trying to do planing gybes in the chop. I can't catch the gear if I lose it so I now just do subplaning gybes.
I'm gradually refining them and they are going well.

Any suggestions for starting when the gear is in this position compared to the wind and the board is pointing to the right.

swim to the tip and start flying the sail from there. The tricky bit is keeping the sail flying while you work your way back to the board

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decrepit said..
swim to the tip and start flying the sail from there. The tricky bit is keeping the sail flying while you work your way back to the board

Isn't the sail at the wrong angle to the wind to lift with the wind under it?

I think I've found a video I was thinking of. I remember Cookie saying just let the board drift .
The 1st part getting the kit easily orientated correctly .
?si=9JmblfQjC2FDtL9o
I can't sail for another few weeks so I can't try any suggestions till then..

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sboardcrazy said..

decrepit said..
swim to the tip and start flying the sail from there. The tricky bit is keeping the sail flying while you work your way back to the board

Isn't the sail at the wrong angle to the wind to lift with the wind under it?

It works if you lift it right at the tip of the sail with one hand on the mast and the other on the leech. You need to get the leech out of the water and then you work your way down the mast. In the drawing you can keep the right hand on the mast and the left hand to push on the sail (to keep the leech out of the water) then slide you right hand down the mast, bit by bit.

Also if you hold onto the boom when falling on windward side you're in a great position to just do a water start straight away so never letting go of the boom will also help as you'll keep the sail flying in the first place.

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sboardcrazy said..
Any suggestions for starting when the gear is in this position compared to the wind and the board is pointing to the right.

Dont lift at the mast tip - this is a highly advanced technique and shouldn't ever be taught to anyone... it is a technique that you learn inadvertently when you need it. It is a bad technique handed down from the days of triangle/non-battened sails which is not relevant nowadays.

One of the biggest assumptions people have when water-starting, is people assume that you "lift" the sail out of the water. This is a false assumption because there is about a half-ton of water sitting on the sail... if you can lift a half-ton, then you could make a truck load of money.

They attempt to learn using the "superman stretch" because they assume it is the wind strength which lifts you up. This couldn't be further from the truth... a waterstart is closer to stepping up a really big first step of a ladder. Walking down from the tip of the sail reinforces this bad idea.

What we actually do is slide the sail sideways, then lift an edge which will cause the water to flow off of it.

In that picture the easiest method is to slide the mast through 270 degrees (rotating toward the right) until the mast is across-the-wind. This does a couple of things:

Firstly it typically pulls the sail to the surface - aka sliding most of the water off of it - leaving just a small volume sitting on it.

As a bonus, this usually puts the board into a better/ideal position of pointing slightly upwind.

Then with the mast facing into the wind, you then slide it upwind/towards you - this raises up the foil which generates sail-lift thus helping it to be further raised up. At this point you can even put the boom onto the back of the board, which uses the buoyancy to help you.

Now there is lift/pressure in the sail, it feels-more-normal just like a normal windsurf stance, thus you feel more natural to take a "large step up" onto the board. You can hang onto the boom to move the board however it feels comfortable.


Edit ... forgot to add:

Dont rotate-left 90 degrees. This might seem like less effort but usually it does two things, it drives the clew deeper into the water, which then means you are pushing the flat-area of the sail against whole whole ocean. It also moves the board into a non-ideal position. Of note is it usually takes longer time rotate that 90 vs rotating the 270.

Obviously ... wavesailing in a actual surf break, changes this recommendation. If you are wavesailing, then you would likely already have developed a suitable skill, and the boom lengths are shorter than freeride/etc.

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SurferKris said..

sboardcrazy said..

decrepit said..
swim to the tip and start flying the sail from there. The tricky bit is keeping the sail flying while you work your way back to the board

Isn't the sail at the wrong angle to the wind to lift with the wind under it?

It works if you lift it right at the tip of the sail with one hand on the mast and the other on the leech. You need to get the leech out of the water and then you work your way down the mast. In the drawing you can keep the right hand on the mast and the left hand to push on the sail (to keep the leech out of the water) then slide you right hand down the mast, bit by bit.

That makes sense.

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ptsf1111 said..
Also if you hold onto the boom when falling on windward side you're in a great position to just do a water start straight away so never letting go of the boom will also help as you'll keep the sail flying in the first place.

I used to be able to do that. I probably need more practice falling in. The problem is restarting wears me out so I'm more likely to fall in..

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mathew said..

sboardcrazy said..
Any suggestions for starting when the gear is in this position compared to the wind and the board is pointing to the right.

Dont lift at the mast tip - this is a highly advanced technique and shouldn't ever be taught to anyone... it is a technique that you learn inadvertently when you need it. It is a bad technique handed down from the days of triangle/non-battened sails which is not relevant nowadays.

One of the biggest assumptions people have when water-starting, is people assume that you "lift" the sail out of the water. This is a false assumption because there is about a half-ton of water sitting on the sail... if you can lift a half-ton, then you could make a truck load of money.

They attempt to learn using the "superman stretch" because they assume it is the wind strength which lifts you up. This couldn't be further from the truth... a waterstart is closer to stepping up a really big first step of a ladder. Walking down from the tip of the sail reinforces this bad idea.

What we actually do is slide the sail sideways, then lift an edge which will cause the water to flow off of it.

In that picture the easiest method is to slide the mast through 270 degrees (rotating toward the right) until the mast is across-the-wind. This does a couple of things:

Firstly it typically pulls the sail to the surface - aka sliding most of the water off of it - leaving just a small volume sitting on it.

As a bonus, this usually puts the board into a better/ideal position of pointing slightly upwind.

Then with the mast facing into the wind, you then slide it upwind/towards you - this raises up the foil which generates sail-lift thus helping it to be further raised up. At this point you can even put the boom onto the back of the board, which uses the buoyancy to help you.

Now there is lift/pressure in the sail, it feels-more-normal just like a normal windsurf stance, thus you feel more natural to take a "large step up" onto the board. You can hang onto the boom to move the board however it feels comfortable.

Rotating it to the right will mean that the clew is to windward so you'd have to flip it ? I think that's one place where I get into trouble. I try and flip the clew which makes it sink ( as people have said earlier) .
The rest all sounds good.
I always manage to sort things but it can take a while and wears me out.

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sboardcrazy said..
Rotating it to the right will mean that the clew is to windward so you'd have to flip it ? I think that's one place where I get into trouble. I try and flip the clew which makes it sink ( as people have said earlier) .
The rest all sounds good.
I always manage to sort things but it can take a while and wears me out.

Rotating to the right then needing to flip the sail, means you have only rotated it 90 degrees to the right... that isn't 270 degrees.

I am making an assumption here that with the board facing-to-the-right, you want to then sail off to the right. If want to sail off to the left, then you will have to flip the sail at some point.

Assuming you are indeed sailing off to the right, then you shouldn't be flipping the sail.

The rotate-wrong-way is one of the most common mistakes I see when I teach people to waterstart (after they learn to not do the superman stretch).

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mathew said..

sboardcrazy said..
Rotating it to the right will mean that the clew is to windward so you'd have to flip it ? I think that's one place where I get into trouble. I try and flip the clew which makes it sink ( as people have said earlier) .
The rest all sounds good.
I always manage to sort things but it can take a while and wears me out.

Rotating to the right then needing to flip the sail, means you have only rotated it 90 degrees to the right... that isn't 270 degrees.

I am making an assumption here that with the board facing-to-the-right, you want to then sail off to the right. If want to sail off to the left, then you will have to flip the sail at some point.

Assuming you are indeed sailing off to the right, then you shouldn't be flipping the sail.

The rotate-wrong-way is one of the most common mistakes I see when I teach people to waterstart (after they learn to not do the superman stretch).

So you have to swim it in almost a complete circle? The board would rotate with it?

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sboardcrazy said..
So you have to swim it in almost a complete circle? The board would rotate with it?

100% and yes.

In the pic - assuming the wind is blowing bottom-left towards top-right, the board is in the wrong position anyway (it is pointing too much downwind).

So .... do the 270 spin -> the board+mast should make a "shallow V". Most of the mast and board should be across the wind, with the mast-tip and the board-nose being slightly upwind.


Since I am on a rant... that video suggesting a bigger board when first learning to waterstart, is also bad advice.

When first mastering the waterstart - either the avoidance of the superman-stretch, or learning the big-step-up -> a big board is both thicker and floats too high in the water... both unhelpful traits. All it does is encourage your feet to connect with the rail, which just causes the board to round up into the wind and/or upsetting the stability of the board.

When first learning to waterstart, go out in a solid wind of say 20kn - not in 12kn. A smaller board - typically that suited to the wind speed - is the best board to learn on. Do not choose a bigger board because the internet suggested so. The smaller board allows you to put your first foot, closer to the centreline of the board... thus no rounding into the wind, and not tipping over.

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mathew said..

sboardcrazy said..
So you have to swim it in almost a complete circle? The board would rotate with it?

100% and yes.

In the pic - assuming the wind is blowing bottom-left towards top-right, the board is in the wrong position anyway (it is pointing too much downwind).

So .... do the 270 spin -> the board+mast should make a "shallow V". Most of the mast and board should be across the wind, with the mast-tip and the board-nose being slightly upwind.


Since I am on a rant... that video suggesting a bigger board when first learning to waterstart, is also bad advice.

When first mastering the waterstart - either the avoidance of the superman-stretch, or learning the big-step-up -> a big board is both thicker and floats too high in the water... both unhelpful traits. All it does is encourage your feet to connect with the rail, which just causes the board to round up into the wind and/or upsetting the stability of the board.

When first learning to waterstart, go out in a solid wind of say 20kn - not in 12kn. A smaller board - typically that suited to the wind speed - is the best board to learn on. Do not choose a bigger board because the internet suggested so. The smaller board allows you to put your first foot, closer to the centreline of the board... thus no rounding into the wind, and not tipping over.

Thanks. I'll pay more attention to what's happening next time I'm on the water.

I would never consider a 270 degrees swim unless maybe you're learning. That's exhausting. Try to be as efficient as you can, preserve your energy and focus on getting back on the board as quickly as possible which also helps staying warm. If that is lifting the tip to get the wind under the sail that's what I would do.

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ptsf1111 said..
If that is lifting the tip to get the wind under the sail that's what I would do.

It's what I normally do, but you have to be a bit patient. As Matt says all that water in the luff sleeve and on top of the sail is heavy.
However the mast is bendy, and just getting a bit of wind under the tip, will get it slowly coming out of the water and draining the water off.

Sometimes it's a necessary fact of life that you need some patience. and to remember that the brute force of young age has to be replaced by the cunning of old age.

be relaxed. Let rig float back to surface (yes it will).
swim mast around to wind. Lift mast way up near top and walk down to boom. Fly sail and a little snap flick to set cams. Then back to starting.
crash repeat

A lot of good tips here.

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sboardcrazy said..
Any suggestions for starting when the gear is in this position compared to the wind and the board is pointing to the right.

Look at my video again if you need. Grab the mast and swim with your legs to pull the board more upwind. 1/2 circle and you're there. If the sail is nice and flat just pull on the boom and it'll fly right away.

You go to the tip only if it's very light and it won't fly (I.e. Surf sailing). Look at the arrow on my vid.

There's also one hour video about the water start on YouTube. Has everything but setting up the gear and sail handling is most of it.

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Manuel7 said..
Look at my video again if you need. Grab the mast and swim with your legs to pull the board more upwind. 1/2 circle and you're there. If the sail is nice and flat just pull on the boom and it'll fly right away.

Your video and most of your tips are awesome ... they are spot on.

Almost all videos steadfastly state "maneuver the board and sail so that the wind is dead-upwind with the board approx 90deg across the wind" which is also meant to help get the sail in the correct position. Typically [ due to the fact that to record video will need nice lighting and nice water ] most dont really help much at all with the preparation, ie: _how_ to maneuver the kit.

Importantly... anyone whom has ever sailed at their local spot will know -> it is typically quite choppy. Maneuvering the kit by either holding the clew of the sail, or the trailing-edge of the sail, is just hard work... it is pushing the say 5/6/7 m2 sail area into or against the water.

Likewise "walking down the sail" requires specialist skill - the sail has to be held at just the correct position so that it will fly but not slam.

That is where your video in particular is one of the few to show using the back of the board to help float the rig. It is the trick we all inadvertently learn, but we typically dont demonstrate it.


The concept of rotating through 270deg is a bit counterintuitive ... its goal is to have the mast be rotated-into-the-wind. As a bonus, the boom can sit on the back of the board. And rather than listen to me, listen to Peter Hart - in this example he spins kit so that the mast is rotated-into-the-wind @ 80s