Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..
short rant At 6'7

More like a tall rant

The other problem you have is the clew is in the wrong place for you. You either need a custom or to adapt your style.

30years ago I had customs made, it was easier then as I lived 2km away from the loft that sponsored me

With worldwide shipping it's easy now. You just have to be prepared to pay. There aren't many lofts that do it, but there are a few scattered about.

Adapt, modify, compensate.
Try looking for shoes, size 15.
Try bike riding, or racing cars.

Lucky size 11feet, as for bike riding, well that used to be my job so no problems there

Lucky for sure, I'm 5'10" and need 10.5 shoes, size 11 booties.
One of my windsurf buds wears size 16, is only 6'4", but easy 265 lbs. His hands are bigger than any other humans, with pinkie thicker than my thumbs. Former DE for Arizona Cardinals.
Kareem tried windsurfing for a couple years.

My last comment here was just ignored, but I'm still going to plug away at this, because there are some very weird other solutions being suggested - like to raise the deckplate, or else to go and get a custom sail made? Woah.

I'm just thinking that if I find the Severne sails cutaways generally too high, and I'm not a foot shorter than the person complaining here, then how come he has this problem?

When wavesailing I do like a low boom, but then when slalom sailing the boom height needed is higher because my stance is different. With a bigger rig, we have a greater rise and fall of the boom height - when we go from slogging, to planing in the straps.
So preferred boom height is a function or how tall you are, but it's also a function of what type of gear you are on, and of where you place the mast foot in relation to your footstraps.

We all change these things as part of our board turning, and wave kit is sailed with an upright rig, whereas slalom and blasting gear is sailed with the rig more raked, so as to load the fin with the back foot.
As I write this, I'm also aware how outdated it may sound - because most slalom sailors nowadays sail with their rigs more upright. So is the real problem here one of old fashion stance, where the mast rake is too extreme? I'm just wondering if you are using the front half of the mast track whilst planing with your feet in straps set well back - which in turn means the boom drops low due to excessive mast rake.

On topic, you then have the option of raising the boom height in two ways on the rig as you set it up, one is at the mast cutaway, and the second is at the sail's cringle height, with many slalom sails offering two clew cringle options.
Once you have the sail rigged you fit it to the board. If you shift the mast foot back then the boom will set higher against your body. If you shift your footstraps forwards - or the front footstrap pair - then the boom height will be even higher.

So you should be able, even as a very tall person, be able to find a setting, using modern upright rig stance, which gives you a high enough boom.

Does anyone else here want to comment on this basic stance advice?

Select to expand quote

Basher said..
My last comment here was just ignored, but I'm still going to plug away at this, because there are some very weird other solutions being suggested - like to raise the deckplate, or else to go and get a custom sail made? Woah.

I'm just thinking that if I find the Severne sails cutaways generally too high, and I'm not a foot shorter than the person complaining here, then how come he has this problem?

When wavesailing I do like a low boom, but then when slalom sailing the boom height needed is higher because my stance is different. With a bigger rig, we have a greater rise and fall of the boom height - when we go from slogging, to planing in the straps.
So preferred boom height is a function or how tall you are, but it's also a function of what type of gear you are on, and of where you place the mast foot in relation to your footstraps.

We all change these things as part of our board turning, and wave kit is sailed with an upright rig, whereas slalom and blasting gear is sailed with the rig more raked, so as to load the fin with the back foot.
As I write this, I'm also aware how outdated it may sound - because most slalom sailors nowadays sail with their rigs more upright. So is the real problem here one of old fashion stance, where the mast rake is too extreme? I'm just wondering if you are using the front half of the mast track whilst planing with your feet in straps set well back - which in turn means the boom drops low due to excessive mast rake.

On topic, you then have the option of raising the boom height in two ways on the rig as you set it up, one is at the mast cutaway, and the second is at the sail's cringle height, with many slalom sails offering two clew cringle options.
Once you have the sail rigged you fit it to the board. If you shift the mast foot back then the boom will set higher against your body. If you shift your footstraps forwards - or the front footstrap pair - then the boom height will be even higher.

So you should be able, even as a very tall person, be able to find a setting, using modern upright rig stance, which gives you a high enough boom.

Does anyone else here want to comment on this basic stance advice?

All sound advice. Also harness type. The hook is much lower on a seat harness than a waist harness which can affect your boom height although a lot of people use different length lines to compensate. I only wavesail and use a waist Harness but I am a skinny runt so it is prone to riding up a bit on my torso. All I know is that if I was 6'7'' and riding modern wave gear with my preferred stance, technique and set-up, I too would find the boom cutout to low. Fortunately I am a short-arse at six foot.
It would be interesting to know what type of windsurfing Ben does which what equipment.

Select to expand quote

stonny said..

Basher said..
My last comment here was just ignored, but I'm still going to plug away at this, because there are some very weird other solutions being suggested - like to raise the deckplate, or else to go and get a custom sail made? Woah.

I'm just thinking that if I find the Severne sails cutaways generally too high, and I'm not a foot shorter than the person complaining here, then how come he has this problem?

When wavesailing I do like a low boom, but then when slalom sailing the boom height needed is higher because my stance is different. With a bigger rig, we have a greater rise and fall of the boom height - when we go from slogging, to planing in the straps.
So preferred boom height is a function or how tall you are, but it's also a function of what type of gear you are on, and of where you place the mast foot in relation to your footstraps.

We all change these things as part of our board turning, and wave kit is sailed with an upright rig, whereas slalom and blasting gear is sailed with the rig more raked, so as to load the fin with the back foot.
As I write this, I'm also aware how outdated it may sound - because most slalom sailors nowadays sail with their rigs more upright. So is the real problem here one of old fashion stance, where the mast rake is too extreme? I'm just wondering if you are using the front half of the mast track whilst planing with your feet in straps set well back - which in turn means the boom drops low due to excessive mast rake.

On topic, you then have the option of raising the boom height in two ways on the rig as you set it up, one is at the mast cutaway, and the second is at the sail's cringle height, with many slalom sails offering two clew cringle options.
Once you have the sail rigged you fit it to the board. If you shift the mast foot back then the boom will set higher against your body. If you shift your footstraps forwards - or the front footstrap pair - then the boom height will be even higher.

So you should be able, even as a very tall person, be able to find a setting, using modern upright rig stance, which gives you a high enough boom.

Does anyone else here want to comment on this basic stance advice?

All sound advice. Also harness type. The hook is much lower on a seat harness than a waist harness which can affect your boom height although a lot of people use different length lines to compensate. I only wavesail and use a waist Harness but I am a skinny runt so it is prone to riding up a bit on my torso. All I know is that if I was 6'7'' and riding modern wave gear with my preferred stance, technique and set-up, I too would find the boom cutout to low. Fortunately I am a short-arse at six foot.
It would be interesting to know what type of windsurfing Ben does which what equipment.

Ben replied saying its sevene m3s and fox120 - so pretty racey setup... I'd like to see a pic of this problem with Ben riding powered in the harness and straps, something doesn't add up to me

Basher. All makes sense. I'm 6'1" and I have plenty of space left in the boom cutaway in most sails to lift the boom. 4-5 inches for sure... So extend the cutout or adjust stance.

Select to expand quote

leto said..
Basher. All makes sense. I'm 6'1" and I have plenty of space left in the boom cutaway in most sails to lift the boom. 4-5 inches for sure... So extend the cutout or adjust stance.

So I'm 6inches taller than you and you say you can only raise your boom 4-5inches so using that logic at the top of the cutout it would be 1-2inches to low for me which is roughly the extra I think I need/want

Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..

leto said..
Basher. All makes sense. I'm 6'1" and I have plenty of space left in the boom cutaway in most sails to lift the boom. 4-5 inches for sure... So extend the cutout or adjust stance.

So I'm 6inches taller than you and you say you can only raise your boom 4-5inches so using that logic at the top of the cutout it would be 1-2inches to low for me which is roughly the extra I think I need/want

No "by that logic" it would be about half that if you have the same proportions because your harness is about the middle of your bod. Maybe you have proportionally longer legs.

Select to expand quote

GasHazard said..>>>>No "by that logic" it would be about half that if you have the same proportions because your harness is about the middle of your bod. Maybe you have proportionally longer legs.

Are we talking about harness or hands?
I don't set my boom in relation to the harness, that's easily adjusted by line length.
I set boom height according to my arms, I want them close to horizontal, that gives me max leverage over the rig. Angled up or down just feels uncomfortable.
So shoulder height is close to a 1:1 relationship with actual height.

Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..
short rantAt 6'7 I'm finding I need the boom right at the top of every sail I have, higher in some cases.
do sail makers think all windsurfers are short?

I've got the other problem.. I'm 5'5" and it's right at the bottom of my Severne OD's wrecking the zip..
At least the concave deck of my flatwater Isonics means I can run it at a slightly better height..
Their freeride sails seem to be better for me..

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
Lucky for sure, I'm 5'10" and need 10.5 shoes, size 11 booties.
One of my windsurf buds wears size 16, is only 6'4", but easy 265 lbs. His hands are bigger than any other humans, with pinkie thicker than my thumbs. Former DE for Arizona Cardinals.
Kareem tried windsurfing for a couple years.

Wow, you know Jack Reacher too!!! We dont have any famous people in oz. Glad your here

Select to expand quote

Basher said..
1 My last comment here was just ignored



When wavesailing I do like a low boom, but then when slalom sailing the boom height needed is higher because 2 my stance is different. 3 With a bigger rig, we have a greater rise and fall of the boom height - when we go from slogging, to planing in the straps.
So preferred boom height is a function or how tall you are, but it's also a function of what type of gear you are on, and of where you place the mast foot in relation to your footstraps.

We all change these things as part of our board turning, and wave kit is sailed with an upright rig, whereas slalom and blasting gear is sailed with the rig more raked, so as to load the fin with the back foot.
As I write this, I'm also aware how outdated it may sound - 4 because most slalom sailors nowadays sail with their rigs more upright. So is the real problem here one of old fashion stance, where the mast rake is too extreme? 5. I'm just wondering if you are using the front half of the mast track whilst planing with your feet in straps set well back - which in turn means the boom drops low due to excessive mast rake.



6. Does anyone else here want to comment on this basic stance advice?

Answers in order of bold text highlighted.

1. I'm not surprised. You seem like a wave sailor trying to apply your tuning tips to apply to unrelated kit, a Fox 120 and 7.8/8.6 race sails. Footstraps forward and mast track back is a wave sailing thing, for manoeuvring with smaller sails rather than large sails and faster sailing. Put the footstraps forward on a large board and sail and you wont be able to fly the board off the fin so well. To compensate, you would have to raise the boom to get more weight on the back foot.

2/3 Last time you wrote about larger boards you has a Starboard 110 Atom and used a 6.5m 5 batten no cam freeride sail. Have you actually sailed a 7.8/8.6 cammed sail?

4. No they dont. I'm not seeing sails sailed upright in the last video of PWA slalom racing on big kit here
PWA slalom sailor and Starboard brand manager Nico Prien gives his tips for sailing in chop. He uses the phrase 'close the gap' @ 3:41
?t=172

5. Thats how you set up footstraps on larger boards. Back strap at the most rear plugs, front straps are rearward to get the board flying. Smaller boards the front strap is further forward for more control.
Jordy Vonk in Israel. Big board, note the mastfoot at the front, 135cm from the tail according to the markings. The actual positioning of the mastfoot in a mastrack depends how far forward in the board the mast track is placed. Ben said he uses his in the rear half of the track. Picture from Fanatic on FB
www.facebook.com/Fanatic.Windsurf.International/photos/4173122176060316



6. Your welcome. Ben replied with his kit and footstrap setup, you seemed to ignore that.

There could be an issue with stance. I would guess using an upright super-7 stance. A picture of Ben in action would be the best way forward, rather than speculating. Arnon Dagan is the tallest PWA slalom sailor. Seems to have upright body, bum out, upper legs more horizonal than super-7. The boom will be lower, Dagan has it in the middle of the cutout on his sail. Sink the hips, lower the boom.

ps I'd say comparing PWA sailors kit setup doesnt necessary translate to Joe Public as PWA sailors use larger sails per wind strength and go faster, but it is closer then wave sailors giving their tips.

If an average 5,11 sailor basically uses the middle of the cutout, and this is optimum also for clew height, then outlier 5,11 sailors have the option of lowering or raising the boom to suit their own preferences/ style.
A 6,7 sailor will have 2 problems. One the clew height won't be designed for them and 2 their adjustment range for personal preference isn't available upwards. A short person will and does have the same problem in reverse.
If you say that as your shoulder/ hip or whatever height goes up so should your boom correspondingly for any given technique/style, then 8 inch sailor height difference could easily be a 4 inch higher boom, the front will have to move more than 4" to get to the right height as the rear of the boom is fixed by the clew( ish,)
You can adapt your technique to sail with a (relatively)different height boom but the fact remains if your body size is far from average then your tuning options are limited compared to the average. It's just trigonometry

Good to see an interesting discussion. It made me want to go out and measure boom cutaways on different sails - if only to compare that with my 7.8 (which itself is not a new sail).
Unfortunately, we have little wind here and everyone is foiling with small rigs or wings, and our next UK slalom event is still two weeks away.

My advice was simply to see if mast foot position and footstrap position could be used to gain the boom height needed - as that obvious potential solution had not been discussed. And, for sure, what you can do will depend on what board you are on, and on whether you want to change your sailing stance.

There's a windsurf mag article about sailor height here, but no-one interviewed is 6ft 7inches.

www.windsurf.co.uk/pwa-slalom-size-matters/


The PWA sailors are big guys, with many at 188cms+ but I'm not sure who is tallest.
Their slalom event starts tomorrow! At last.


Here's a picture of Pierre Mortefon, 188cms, sailing with his boom half way up the cutaway on a Duotone rig.
For sure, he may have dropped the boom for control in strong wind, and he might like a higher setting for lighter wind.
As you can see this is only a 7.0m sail, so it's a windy day shown here.

Jordy Vonk is also seen here using a mid-cutaway setting for his boom height.
He's not 6' 7" but he is pretty tall at 194cms, or 6ft 4inches

Are all these tall pro sailors using standard production sails ? Even if they are, is it not possible that they may have boon cut-outs suited to their body height. Just a thought.

Slalom race sails typically have really high boom cutouts.
Low end freeride sails have low boom cutouts.
Since closing the gap is no longer a major factor, you can rig your sail with a 3" gap

Select to expand quote

stonny said..
Are all these tall pro sailors using standard production sails ? Even if they are, is it not possible that they may have boon cut-outs suited to their body height. Just a thought.

I am not sure on the exact rules - but PWA slalom is supposed to be production gear now days. the thing is they have every size sail, unless they are at the bottom end of the biggest size (which this year they will be foiling anyway) then they are powered up properly, and no one wants a too high boom for that.

I'm feeling like ben is too upright perhaps with relatively short harness lines for his geometry

Wow, some crazy solutions suggested, hahahah.
As others have pointed out, there are plenty of tall sailors running their boom below the top of the cutout. So this has to be a technique/preference issue. Maybe try shorter lines?

I'm 195cm (6'5"), use a waist harness and never run the boom at the top of the cutout. I could go 2" higher if I wanted (theoretically you need only 1" extra as the harness is half way up your body).

Would be fun to watch the guy the size of Shaq. 7'1" wighting 160/170 kg windsurfing. We are talking 180L wave boards and 8m sails for strong wind wavesailing. I think that his weight relative to the water mass is still negligible but equipment/board size is not. Wonder if that size guy would be smacked around hard. lol Equipment would probably give out left and right..

Had to respond to this old thread as I am also 6'7". I've tried all the tricks mentioned. There are exceptions, but the only thing that worked for me is having a professional modify the cutout height (if I want the boom at least chin height). I paid US$50 per sail,.

Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..

sailquik said..

gh said..
Need a Z boom upside down, if your old enough to remember them.

Many years ago I actually toyed with that idea

Think youd need to flip the head. They were a tie on n pivot up to tighten model.
Gimme a clamp on boom any day!

Select to expand quote

akrausz said..
Had to respond to this old thread as I am also 6'7". I've tried all the tricks mentioned. There are exceptions, but the only thing that worked for me is having a professional modify the cutout height (if I want the boom at least chin height). I paid US$50 per sail,.

It's interesting, I'm 6'4", and the limiting factor for me is harness line length; I'm normally rigged with the boom in the middle of the cutout on all of my sails. I'd run the boom higher, but if I do, I have a hard time getting the loop into the harness hook. Where is everyone getting these extra long harness lines!? I feel like I need a 36" to 38" set.

Edit: screenshot from GoPro footage of my stance being limited by adjustable lines at full extension; powered up and planing with a 9.5m sail with around 12-15kt wind speed, going about 18kts. I'm sure I can do a lot better posture-wise without gear changes, but I feel like I'm not getting my body weight out and my arms are bent as a result of the short harness line. Chinook adjustable, 32" max length.

Gosh this road crash of a thread has come back to haunt us.
(A 'road crash' because people of different abilities and in different disciplines of windsurfing, are talking at cross purposes.)

Modern boom cutaways are NOT too low, even for tall people.
If you find they are then you probably need to shift your mast foot back.
It's only older boards that don't allow that to happen - because the track is set too far forwards.
It's using too much mast rake that drops the boom too low - sometimes making you think the sail has a problem.
Old stance sucks.

If you are over 6foot tall and with long arms then, yes, you may well need 34 or 36inch lines.
Just saying.
Stance is something you can experiment with. Don't go cutting your sails up because your stance is wrong.

In other words, boom height is not just about your physical height but about how you stand in relation to the rig.
That's a function of mast foot position in relation to footstrap position.