waricle said..
So many expert critics....
we have wine critics, movie critics, food critics, book critics and now Sail design critics
Don't let them wind you up, when they've made a Sail better than yours they're criticism will have some legitimacy.
I will look forward to hearing from someone who's actually ridden one.

Thank you! Some of these critics connected to industry. So their criticism is compliment to my work. We didnt have time to form independent opinion yet. But we working on it now. We start slow with customers testimonies and continue with pro racer embassador, wich is in works now as well.

The Wingsail is clearly different, however the above name calling, claims by the developer and counter claims by the critics is unhelpful. Whether it is an improvement on current designs needs to be determined through comparative testing. A video showing it passing a board, rigged with an Evo 8, is not a comparative test.

John340 said..
The Wingsail is clearly different, however the above name calling, claims by the developer and counter claims by the critics is unhelpful. Whether it is an improvement on current designs needs to be determined through comparative testing. A video showing it passing a board, rigged with an Evo 8, is not a comparative test.

Well, how about video I passing 10 boards with different sails? Is that helps? Just kiddind. Look ,we just start our production (very slow) . We coldnt think about all aspects at ones . This is what this forum for, we can listen and learn what public needs. Sorry for slapping some critics, someway they gave me their best. Oh yes, me and all aerodinamical scientists, we all think about wright brothers airfoil as a primitive one.

Pacey said..

MWsails said..

Pacey said..

By the way americas cup is just another desparete attemt to create revercible profile. They put millions on it, still missing a major point, its not assymetrical, nor revercible.

Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. The wing sails for the 2013 and 2017 Americas cup were capable of changing their camber and twist profiles while sailing, and were capable of significantly higher lift coefficients than your rig and I would guess much lower L/D ratios as well. They could sail upwind on either tack, and in 2017 were efficient enough to allow 4 tonne boats to tack and gybe on foils.

In total, these boats had hundreds of millions of dollars or research put into them, including wind tunnel and extensive CFD testing. On the other hand you have a poorly formed understanding of the effects of camber and thickness on aerofoil performance, and and bugger all to back it up other than subjective on-the-water impressions, instead of hard numbers, race results or even GPS speeds.

Wow so many passionate words. First of all americas cup "wing" doesnt change camber. They have just two symmetrical profiles one after other. Like rudder on the plane. Upwind performance terrible. In aviation similar profile has been used on p51 plane for t slow plane down during dives. But take off, landing,stall,etc. characteristics terrible. So idea was dismissed. AC 72 its just a toy for rich boys. If you still dont understand why airfoil needs to be assymetrical, on the plane, glider, birds, sailrocket, basically everyvere (exept ac72) , read some basic aerodynamics. Its available on internet, and its free.

Actually, slotted aerofoils are used on just about all planes to increase lift coefficient at low speeds. If you look out the window of a passenger jet at low speeds the flaps are extended, not to slow the plane down, but to increase lift. Slotted aerofoils do this exceptionally well, and can be thought of as a single cambered aerofoil, with the slot helping to keep flow attached on the trailing element of the wing.

Upwind performance on the AC72 was not terrible, in fact on foils they were capable of doing over30 knots boat speed upwind. I haven't seen the polars for the most recent AC boats but assume that they would have been even faster. These are actually the most efficient upwind boats ever made (excluding ice and land yachts of course).

Of course I appreciate the value of assymmetric foils, what I also appreciate is the high lift coefficients that can be generated from thin foils such as sails and that thick foils struggle at high lift coefficients. Thick foils are not the ultimate answer for high lift requirements.

Now you should start appreciate and respect my work. That will be well rounded.

MWsails said..

John340 said..
The Wingsail is clearly different, however the above name calling, claims by the developer and counter claims by the critics is unhelpful. Whether it is an improvement on current designs needs to be determined through comparative testing. A video showing it passing a board, rigged with an Evo 8, is not a comparative test.

Well, how about video I passing 10 boards with different sails? Is that helps? Just kiddind. Look ,we just start our production (very slow) . We coldnt think about all aspects at ones . This is what this forum for, we can listen and learn what public needs. Sorry for slapping some critics, someway they gave me their best. Oh yes, me and all aerodinamical scientists, we all think about wright brothers airfoil as a primitive one.

USD1200 + transport costs is a lot to outlay for an unproven product. You'll have a lot of difficulty convincing sailors to outlay that sort of coin without some form of independent comparative testing against current designs

John340 said..

MWsails said..

John340 said..
The Wingsail is clearly different, however the above name calling, claims by the developer and counter claims by the critics is unhelpful. Whether it is an improvement on current designs needs to be determined through comparative testing. A video showing it passing a board, rigged with an Evo 8, is not a comparative test.

Well, how about video I passing 10 boards with different sails? Is that helps? Just kiddind. Look ,we just start our production (very slow) . We coldnt think about all aspects at ones . This is what this forum for, we can listen and learn what public needs. Sorry for slapping some critics, someway they gave me their best. Oh yes, me and all aerodinamical scientists, we all think about wright brothers airfoil as a primitive one.

USD1200 + transport costs is a lot to outlay for an unproven product. You'll have a lot of difficulty convincing sailors to outlay that sort of coin without some form of independent comparative testing against current designs

Can't argue with that.

Simon100 said..
so many arguments in this thread.Can we just see gps speeds in a reasonable wind range maybe doing a video with gps overlay would be good.
Ive got lots of theories on it too but its easier if we just go straight to the results isnt it.
Why so small on the sizes though ? wouldnt 7-8m be more usefull ?

Hi Simon! I absolutely agree with you on arguments. As you can see there is no solid argument point. It just some people from industry got upset because I rocking their tree. Now about GPS . Not only that I have GPS data, also many other toys in my box, CFD , 3d , etc. The reason I don't post and compare my ground speed results with someone. Because I know that this is has 0 value. Your ground speed depend on many factors, Like water state, air pressure , temperature , humidity , board parameters, fin, and weight of the sailor. So with whom I have to race? Guy in the ditch with 40 pounds of weight strapped to his chest? Or open ocean crazy wave rider? Data that I collected says that with wing sail on same bay same wind strength my top speed 4.6 Kt faster. But speed is not my target , As you can see I mention speed as a secondary factor. What I sell to the world, is exquisite quality of sailing. With wing you will point steeper go faster maneuver with improvement in all aspects, plus your board with wing become very stable machine. I'm selling to you next level of your personal progress. Now about sizes. I design sail for what people call fun zone. its about 20 mph wind, Well, wing perform a bit better from 17 mph. That 5.8 size is really really fun to ride especially when wind speeds become crazy. Yes 7 and 8 m sail will give you small advantage in light wind, also 7 and 8 as 5.8 size will handle mega range, and continue building stable mega lift. I afraid that it would be a bit crazy for public release. Anyway, I truly exhausted after putting together 5.8, Next bigger size will come later and we decide if it would be suitable for market after small break.

Roo said..
In other words It's not faster than a normal sail and he doesn't want to publish any gps tracks as it will show the truth. It's all a big con and pr stunt to try and sell some sails. Well good luck with it all, I hope you make millions. Meanwhile the rest of the windsurfing world will continue to enjoy the sport and buy gear that's easy to use and easy to go fast on. I doubt anyone in the industry is upset about your sail, to be honest they couldn't care less. This will stand out as a classic example of how not to market a new product.

What a constructive criticism, based on zero technical output, so typical.

Simon100 said..

MWsails said..

Simon100 said..
so many arguments in this thread.Can we just see gps speeds in a reasonable wind range maybe doing a video with gps overlay would be good.
Ive got lots of theories on it too but its easier if we just go straight to the results isnt it.
Why so small on the sizes though ? wouldnt 7-8m be more usefull ?

Hi Simon! I absolutely agree with you on arguments. As you can see there is no solid argument point. It just some people from industry got upset because I rocking their tree. Now about GPS . Not only that I have GPS data, also many other toys in my box, CFD , 3d , etc. The reason I don't post and compare my ground speed results with someone. Because I know that this is has 0 value. Your ground speed depend on many factors, Like water state, air pressure , temperature , humidity , board parameters, fin, and weight of the sailor. So with whom I have to race? Guy in the ditch with 40 pounds of weight strapped to his chest? Or open ocean crazy wave rider? Data that I collected says that with wing sail on same bay same wind strength my top speed 4.6 Kt faster. But speed is not my target , As you can see I mention speed as a secondary factor. What I sell to the world, is exquisite quality of sailing. With wing you will point steeper go faster maneuver with improvement in all aspects, plus your board with wing become very stable machine. I'm selling to you next level of your personal progress. Now about sizes. I design sail for what people call fun zone. its about 20 mph wind, Well, wing perform a bit better from 17 mph. That 5.8 size is really really fun to ride especially when wind speeds become crazy. Yes 7 and 8 m sail will give you small advantage in light wind, also 7 and 8 as 5.8 size will handle mega range, and continue building stable mega lift. I afraid that it would be a bit crazy for public release. Anyway, I truly exhausted after putting together 5.8, Next bigger size will come later and we decide if it would be suitable for market after small break.

We do not need to compare speeds to outright speed sailing and i think the traditional sail would have to be better for this but if you could even demonstrate an equal ability across wind or slightly off the wind people would be less skeptical even if it is not as fast there might be room for improvment, in 17-20 knots wind is this sail going 25, 30 or 35 knots ?

or send Roo a demo sail and he can do the comparative sailing on the gorge against his benchmark NP Evo 9s

John340 said..

Simon100 said..

MWsails said..

Simon100 said..
so many arguments in this thread.Can we just see gps speeds in a reasonable wind range maybe doing a video with gps overlay would be good.
Ive got lots of theories on it too but its easier if we just go straight to the results isnt it.
Why so small on the sizes though ? wouldnt 7-8m be more usefull ?

Hi Simon! I absolutely agree with you on arguments. As you can see there is no solid argument point. It just some people from industry got upset because I rocking their tree. Now about GPS . Not only that I have GPS data, also many other toys in my box, CFD , 3d , etc. The reason I don't post and compare my ground speed results with someone. Because I know that this is has 0 value. Your ground speed depend on many factors, Like water state, air pressure , temperature , humidity , board parameters, fin, and weight of the sailor. So with whom I have to race? Guy in the ditch with 40 pounds of weight strapped to his chest? Or open ocean crazy wave rider? Data that I collected says that with wing sail on same bay same wind strength my top speed 4.6 Kt faster. But speed is not my target , As you can see I mention speed as a secondary factor. What I sell to the world, is exquisite quality of sailing. With wing you will point steeper go faster maneuver with improvement in all aspects, plus your board with wing become very stable machine. I'm selling to you next level of your personal progress. Now about sizes. I design sail for what people call fun zone. its about 20 mph wind, Well, wing perform a bit better from 17 mph. That 5.8 size is really really fun to ride especially when wind speeds become crazy. Yes 7 and 8 m sail will give you small advantage in light wind, also 7 and 8 as 5.8 size will handle mega range, and continue building stable mega lift. I afraid that it would be a bit crazy for public release. Anyway, I truly exhausted after putting together 5.8, Next bigger size will come later and we decide if it would be suitable for market after small break.

We do not need to compare speeds to outright speed sailing and i think the traditional sail would have to be better for this but if you could even demonstrate an equal ability across wind or slightly off the wind people would be less skeptical even if it is not as fast there might be room for improvment, in 17-20 knots wind is this sail going 25, 30 or 35 knots ?

or send Roo a demo sail and he can do the comparative sailing on the gorge against his benchmark NP Evo 9s

Haha yeah . Roo can click button buy on my web. I know, and in contact, with professional sailors who I trust , just give me some time. I have to tailor some stuff for them.

Sparky said..
Have they ever been sailed/tested at over 40knots of board speed?

No, I don't have such a great spot. All I can say I take ANY production model on my bay and wing easy beats it. You know,, aspect ratio, leading edge stall, stuff like that works on my bay. In my old days sailing downwind 28 kt it's like holding for your life, With wing it feels like nothing.

NelsonFoils said..

MWsails said..

NelsonFoils said..
Have a look on the mens facebook page :

www.facebook.com/stanislav.mostoviy

There you will find answers and some rigging and sailing video's .

Nelson, you following me for 3 years. What is your thout on my design?

Hi Stanislav.

I am a big fan of wingsails for as long as I am sailing ( 50 years) and windsurfing (40years)
I worked with some great designers and sailmakers ever since a was a kid .

Ever since I read the article in "WIND magazin (France) in 1994 on wingsail prototype a was hooked !

I myself have made 5 prototypes over the last 20 years ( one , nr 3 with the great help of one of your Faceboor friends )

Maybe you have seen my photos on the Dutch forum and here :

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Review/Wing-sail-one-step-up?page=1


I worked with outside companies and do not have any own workshop , It's never been my intention to go to the market i just want the largest possible joy from a day sailing (inc. max speed in light air , Always in control , if possible only rig one sail...)

My prototypes all give me a very good idea and proof that the idea behind wingsails work , but do to lack of time (and of course money) I did not get to a marketable product (parts made of styrofoam and plexyglass , cheap and easy to work with but not very durable...)

You DID set up your own workshop !
And you DID A GREAT JOB !
You know the theory behind the operation and as one of the only people a know GET why a wing sail is SO superior to single surface sails !!!
you have overcome the difficulties and came up with a working product !
Also made a great website with all the information , photo's , video's and are very helpfull to answer every question !

Thank you for doing so !

If I can find the time today I will create a drawing in which is clear to everyone why a wing is so much more pleasant to sail and what are the big advantages for us mortals






Great new video from last weekend !

The most soft camber rotation on the market !!!
Waterstart is a joke !!!

YOU DID A GREAT JOB MAN !!!

This is very nice of you to say that. Thank you!

Roo said..

or send Roo a demo sail and he can do the comparative sailing on the gorge against his benchmark NP Evo 9s

Would be happy to test it, I reckon I could find out how fast it would really go! Tested a few sails over the years, including double surface wings in the desert.

Can you explain that picture to us

Unfortunately Stephen Hawking's prediction that the human race is far too aggressive, and will probably not last another 1,000 years is correct. FFS I come on to read about some windsurfing gear, and all I get is this aggressive crap, now I'm feeling angry and I wanna get really really violent with someone

kato said..

hardie said..
Unfortunately Stephen Hawking's prediction that the human race is far too aggressive, and will probably not last another 1,000 years is correct. FFS I come on to read about some windsurfing gear, and all I get is this aggressive crap, now I'm feeling angry and I wanna get really really violent with someone

Breathe, look at the ocean and remember all the good that's in the world. Ignore all that keyboard crap from people who didn't and embrace the ones that did.
Failing that go for a sail on a weekday remembering all the sad sacks that have to work

Who are you wise man of science