I'm after a 5.8m non cammed sail.
I figured I'd stick with Severne as they will fit my existing cammed sail masts?
I want it for a B & J sail. I'm used to cam stability.
Is there such a thing as a sail that is stable but can be depowered if needed?
How do the different raf sails compare?
Ggator - NCX etc..

Gator seems like the obvious choice as it is designed for that. The Ncx would work but not as strong and not as fast to depower.

You get all the stability & user friendliness you need by being on the right size sail for what the sail is designed not trying to hold a 5.8 no cam sail in same wind as 5.8 race sail. 5.7 gator is useable in same wind as 6.5 racesail.

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mkseven said..
You get all the stability & user friendliness you need by being on the right size sail for what the sail is designed not trying to hold a 5.8 no cam sail in same wind as 5.8 race sail. 5.7 gator is useable in same wind as 6.5 racesail.

I bought the board for 20kts plus but the current sail doesn't seem to work ( modified 5.8 KA Kult).
85ltre Windtech Magic Bullit
I was going to use the sail in 12-20kts . I have to get better at uphauling.
The idea is to get used to the board in lighter winds first.
I usually use a 7m NCX / OD in that wind range ..7.5m Turbo if it's the lower end .

I use a 6.6m KA Koncept if it's a pretty consist 15 - 20kts odd.
I didn't get to have much planing sailing the one time I tried the Kult but I found that when a gust hit me subplaning I felt like I was going to be thrown over the front?
I'm not sure if it was the sail ( it couldn't be set properly because I'd had the cutout enlarged about 10 inches).. Is that normal for a non cammed sail?

Doesn't sound like it's set right, try alot of outhaul (ncx aside treat outhaul on no cam such as gator/kult like you use downhaul on a race sail).

Sue, I've owned a 6.0 Gator for over 6 years. It's been a very good sail. I use it with a 103 Kode FSW in 18 to 28kts. It would work well for your with your 85 Magic Bullitt in 15 to 20+. If you want something to use in higher winds, then you could consider the 5.5 or 5.0.

The 5.8m Ka Kult is more on off power, so when you sheet in the power to the ride is not as gradual as a more free ride sail so the sensation of being thrown over the front is more in that kind of sail. For your weight it would need a lot of down haul too.

They are good sails, might be worth giving it another try.

The board to, only being 85 litres wouldn't hold anything bigger than that size of sail too.

Yes Sue...That 2009 Kult you are using is a Wave sail and was designed with less horizontal seam shape and lots of rotation, so as Madge says very on and off. The current Kult is a totally different beast and would be a lot more suited to what you are trying to acheive.
With my limited knowledge of Severne sails I would think the Gator could be a good fit.

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mr love said..
Yes Sue...That 2009 Kult you are using is a Wave sail and was designed with less horizontal seam shape and lots of rotation, so as Madge says very on and off. The current Kult is a totally different beast and would be a lot more suited to what you are trying to acheive.
With my limited knowledge of Severne sails I would think the Gator could be a good fit.

Thanks. Phew.. nice to know it's probably the sail and not me..

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John340 said..
Sue, I've owned a 6.0 Gator for over 6 years. It's been a very good sail. I use it with a 103 Kode FSW in 18 to 28kts. It would work well for your with your 85 Magic Bullitt in 15 to 20+. If you want something to use in higher winds, then you could consider the 5.5 or 5.0.

I only have c 2008 model raf sails. My next down is a 4.8m Sailworks Hucker then a 4.2m revo wavesails that is probably even older . I think I might have broken the 400 Sailworks mast that I used for the 4.2m..

s1 pro

Hi Sue, part of your problem with the forward pull in your sail will be that you are not used to sailing a wave board. It will have more rocker than the slalom boards you are familiar with and therefore wont release as easy making the sail feel heavy and want to pull you over the front. Using the board in marginal conditions as per your test will make this feel worse. Once you are fully lit and the board is fully planing it shouldn't be a problem.
Cant comment on the Gator or Kult but a very versatile sail i am using is the Simmer Enduro. They have a lower cut foot than a full on wave sail, 5 battens, light, stable and the boom cut out is low enough for short people. I use the 5.4 and 5.9 for bump n jump on the fsw, on my small slalom board on the ocean in wild conditions and for foiling in stronger winds.
Hope you get some good wind soon to give the MB85 a decent go.

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Swindy said..
Hi Sue, part of your problem with the forward pull in your sail will be that you are not used to sailing a wave board. It will have more rocker than the slalom boards you are familiar with and therefore wont release as easy making the sail feel heavy and want to pull you over the front. Using the board in marginal conditions as per your test will make this feel worse. Once you are fully lit and the board is fully planing it shouldn't be a problem.
Cant comment on the Gator or Kult but a very versatile sail i am using is the Simmer Enduro. They have a lower cut foot than a full on wave sail, 5 battens, light, stable and the boom cut out is low enough for short people. I use the 5.4 and 5.9 for bump n jump on the fsw, on my small slalom board on the ocean in wild conditions and for foiling in stronger winds.
Hope you get some good wind soon to give the MB85 a decent go.

Thanks. That makes sense .I had a fair bit of flex in the tail last time so I'll tighten it out for the next lightwind session.

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Swindy said..
Hi Sue, part of your problem with the forward pull in your sail will be that you are not used to sailing a wave board. It will have more rocker than the slalom boards you are familiar with and therefore wont release as easy making the sail feel heavy and want to pull you over the front. Using the board in marginal conditions as per your test will make this feel worse. Once you are fully lit and the board is fully planing it shouldn't be a problem.
Cant comment on the Gator or Kult but a very versatile sail i am using is the Simmer Enduro. They have a lower cut foot than a full on wave sail, 5 battens, light, stable and the boom cut out is low enough for short people. I use the 5.4 and 5.9 for bump n jump on the fsw, on my small slalom board on the ocean in wild conditions and for foiling in stronger winds.
Hope you get some good wind soon to give the MB85 a decent go.

Good point Swindy. I definitely noticed this on the first day in Maui this year. But like you said, I made the necessary adjustment quickly.

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sboardcrazy said..
I found that when a gust hit me subplaning I felt like I was going to be thrown over the front?
I'm not sure if it was the sail ( it couldn't be set properly because I'd had the cutout enlarged about 10 inches).. Is that normal for a non cammed sail?

Most non-cammed sails have the COE higher than race sails, and a firmer leech, so they breathe less. So you'll get the catapult feeling when a big gust hits! I sailed a new Severne Freek yesterday, and did get catapulted a couple of times - that just does not happen anymore with sails I am used to. But the Freek is quite different from the sail it replaced (a North Idol), so it will take a few sessions to get used to it. I can now handle the gusts, but have not figured out how to pump it well yet. But I remember that I could not pump the Idol either at first, and when it died, I thought it was the best sail for pumping I own..

Bottom line is that you need to allow for some time to get used to a new sail, especially if it is as different as a freeride sail to a race sail. The Gator looks like a great choice - I would have gotten one instead of the Freek if the shop would have had one in stock.

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boardsurfr said..

sboardcrazy said..
I found that when a gust hit me subplaning I felt like I was going to be thrown over the front?
I'm not sure if it was the sail ( it couldn't be set properly because I'd had the cutout enlarged about 10 inches).. Is that normal for a non cammed sail?

Most non-cammed sails have the COE higher than race sails, and a firmer leech, so they breathe less. So you'll get the catapult feeling when a big gust hits! I sailed a new Severne Freek yesterday, and did get catapulted a couple of times - that just does not happen anymore with sails I am used to. But the Freek is quite different from the sail it replaced (a North Idol), so it will take a few sessions to get used to it. I can now handle the gusts, but have not figured out how to pump it well yet. But I remember that I could not pump the Idol either at first, and when it died, I thought it was the best sail for pumping I own..

Bottom line is that you need to allow for some time to get used to a new sail, especially if it is as different as a freeride sail to a race sail. The Gator looks like a great choice - I would have gotten one instead of the Freek if the shop would have had one in stock.

Freestyle sails are the worst this way - they have the highest COE & tightest leaches. You would have been better off on a Blade or Gator.

I've got the choice of a current KA Kult or a Severne Gator ( I have a KA mast ).
What's the difference in feel ?
Both my masts are sdm .
430 Severne apex pro
430 sdm 100% KA - not sure of the year..2014?
Anyone sailed both and can compare them

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Swindy said..
Hi Sue, part of your problem with the forward pull in your sail will be that you are not used to sailing a wave board. It will have more rocker than the slalom boards you are familiar with and therefore wont release as easy making the sail feel heavy and want to pull you over the front. Using the board in marginal conditions as per your test will make this feel worse. Once you are fully lit and the board is fully planing it shouldn't be a problem.
Cant comment on the Gator or Kult but a very versatile sail i am using is the Simmer Enduro. They have a lower cut foot than a full on wave sail, 5 battens, light, stable and the boom cut out is low enough for short people. I use the 5.4 and 5.9 for bump n jump on the fsw, on my small slalom board on the ocean in wild conditions and for foiling in stronger winds.
Hope you get some good wind soon to give the MB85 a decent go.

I think I've killed any decent wind by buying the board
.
Simmer sounds good. I'm trying to get something that will work with my current masts. I don't want to buy new ones.

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sboardcrazy said..
I've got the choice of a current KA Kult or a Severne Gator ( I have a KA mast ).
What's the difference in feel ?
Both my masts are sdm .
430 Severne apex pro
430 sdm 100% KA - not sure of the year..2014?
Anyone sailed both and can compare them

I have a couple of Gator's - rigged with loose leach and about 1/2 cm - 1cm of outhaul they are light in your hands and can depower smoothly I'm using on a older Kode 103L this combo isn't sluggish like you would expect a "wave board" / "FSW" to be, easily 30+ knots on flat water

all this talk of wave rockers - but the Windtech Magic bullet has a very fast near slalom / fast free ride rocker- and with its extra length transitions onto the plane exceptionally well. Its a very unique design in its space.

The idea is to use some elegant outline and rail design along with the ATT tail design to get your turns going on rather than dragging excess rocker around and having to endure later planing and slower upwind performance.

yup. its definitely the sail thats the issue.

that and the sdm mast.

Had another go on the combo today.Still patchy 10 -20 kts so underpowered a lot. Had enough powered up runs to know I absolutely love the board and it's renewed my enthusiasm for sailing. ????
I had the sail very flat so the battens would rotate. It probably lacked low power grunt as a result but it was much better today..

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boardsurfr said..

sboardcrazy said..
I found that when a gust hit me subplaning I felt like I was going to be thrown over the front?
I'm not sure if it was the sail ( it couldn't be set properly because I'd had the cutout enlarged about 10 inches).. Is that normal for a non cammed sail?

Most non-cammed sails have the COE higher than race sails, and a firmer leech, so they breathe less. So you'll get the catapult feeling when a big gust hits! I sailed a new Severne Freek yesterday, and did get catapulted a couple of times - that just does not happen anymore with sails I am used to. But the Freek is quite different from the sail it replaced (a North Idol), so it will take a few sessions to get used to it. I can now handle the gusts, but have not figured out how to pump it well yet. But I remember that I could not pump the Idol either at first, and when it died, I thought it was the best sail for pumping I own..

Bottom line is that you need to allow for some time to get used to a new sail, especially if it is as different as a freeride sail to a race sail. The Gator looks like a great choice - I would have gotten one instead of the Freek if the shop would have had one in stock.

Freek is the only sail I thought was actively trying to kill catapult me. 1-2 knots above its wind range and it would start pulling from the top real hard.

Hi Sboardcrazy,
I have 5 severne sails, 3 Gators, a Turbo GT and an OD. And often used a NCX of a friend. So I know and can compare the Severne sails quite well.

My 3 Gators are 5.5, 6.5 and 8.0 (all 2017). They are good sails for freeriding, B&J and light wave sailing. good punch at low wind yet easy to control in high winds if you add more downhaul and outhaul. Of course they dont give that strong locked-in feeling of a 7m2 cam sail like an overdrive or turbo. But the Gators are light, easy to handle, the center of gravity more to the front where the power is easier to control, and they have a broad wind range for a no-cam sail. A very easy-going sail which feels well.
Full recommendation from my side for your purpose. They are quite common at windsurf rental stations as good and durable allround sails, maybe just rent one and try out. But you wont be disappointed.
A NCX is more a no-cam freerace sail for high speed blasting / freeracing, not for b&j. They dont have much grunt at low winds, but form their pronounced profile only in higher winds.

Btw. I have a 430 SDM (Apex pro) and RDM (90%) mast of Severne, tried the 5.5. and 6.5 Gators with both masts. SDM gives a bit more stable feeling, RDM a bit more agile. No difference performance-wise. So your SDM mast will be good for Gators and for the stable feeling you look for.

best regards
mariachi76

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mariachi76 said..
Hi Sboardcrazy,
I have 5 severne sails, 3 Gators, a Turbo GT and an OD. And often used a NCX of a friend. So I know and can compare the Severne sails quite well.

My 3 Gators are 5.5, 6.5 and 8.0 (all 2017). They are good sails for freeriding, B&J and light wave sailing. good punch at low wind yet easy to control in high winds if you add more downhaul and outhaul. Of course they dont give that strong locked-in feeling of a 7m2 cam sail like an overdrive or turbo. But the Gators are light, easy to handle, the center of gravity more to the front where the power is easier to control, and they have a broad wind range for a no-cam sail. A very easy-going sail which feels well.
Full recommendation from my side for your purpose. They are quite common at windsurf rental stations as good and durable allround sails, maybe just rent one and try out. But you wont be disappointed.
A NCX is more a no-cam freerace sail for high speed blasting / freeracing, not for b&j. They dont have much grunt at low winds, but form their pronounced profile only in higher winds.

Btw. I have a 430 SDM (Apex pro) and RDM (90%) mast of Severne, tried the 5.5. and 6.5 Gators with both masts. SDM gives a bit more stable feeling, RDM a bit more agile. No difference performance-wise. So your SDM mast will be good for Gators and for the stable feeling you look for.

best regards
mariachi76

Thanks!

severne recomend an rdm for the 6.5m and smaller gator out of interest.

i would not recomended an sdm mast for any lightweights. if you look at the issues sue has with the kult part of that is due to sdm mast and partly due to the kults design. i would also not recomend a kult for a lightweight.

there is so much mss information in this thread no wonder new people to the sport struggle.

my own experiemce switching between sdm and rdm is reflected in loft sails tech comments. i find difference very noticable and sold all of my sdm masts. coincidently i wouldnt use an sdm unless i was using 8m+ sails.

loft sails blurb.

SKELETON

Masts are the backbone of the rig and rig character changes significantly depending on the mast type used.The two mast types are different in the way they work when windsurfing.The differences between RDMs and SDMs can be a positive or can be negative depending on many factors.For any given sail size here's a summary of the contrasts:
RDMS
Feel more forgiving generally compared to SDMs. Their more elastic dynamic character is better suited to lighter windsurfers. Smaller sail sizes are likely better on RDMs. Their dynamic softness making the rig more forgiving for the stronger winds associated with smaller sizes. Are generally better suited to rough conditions, especially severe chop, where their softer character gives a 'dampened' feeling to the rig. Cam-equipped designs rotate more easily on RDM masts than on SDM masts.Tend to set the sail flatter through the lower body on RDMs compared to SDMs. Generally allow the rig to set lower down onto the board compared to SDMs because their softer character results in slightly more mast bend through the middle, which in turn allows more twist through the lower leech that lets the sail twist off more just above the boom, so that the boom settles in, 'closing the gap slightly more than SDMs do. This can make upper end sailing more efficient and more comfortable. Are more durable than SDMs. RDMs can flex much farther than SDMs, which is especially important for wave sailing.RDMs also accept cam pressure without problems due to their thick walls. Are of similar weights compared to SDMs in shorter lengths - but become heavier than SDMs in longer lengths. Are more likely to be more accurate regarding flex-spec matching because the greater wall thickness makes RDMs less production-tolerance critical.

SDMS
Make the rig feel stiffer and less forgiving. Can produce better upwind & flatwater performance compared to RDMs.Will set the sail with a slightly more defined, fuller profile through the lower body compared to RDMs.SDMs, with their thin walls, can be sensitive to cam pressure. This can become an issue in hot weather or direct sunlit where SDMs can sometimes loose their integrity. Large sail sizes are usually better rigged on SDMs and are better suited to the stiffer character of SDMs, just as a large backbone is better suited to large-sized body.The sail size where this transition happens is relative depending on the size of the sailor, sail design details and trim. However I would suggest 7.0 and down on RDM, larger sizes on SDM as a basic parameter for most windsurfers. Are generally less likely compared to RDMs to be accurate regarding flex-spec matching because the thinner wall thickness make SDMs more production-tolerance critical.Back in 2005 I decided to bring cam-equipped designs into the Loftsails product range.I am 78 kg.and appreciate the softer feeling, durability and spec-matching associated with RDMs.Consequently, early Loftsails Blade designs were RDM-only.As the Blade designs evolved, SDM compatibility became necessary.Providing both cam types with Blade designs has been a feature of Loftsails Racing Blades since 2009.RDM/SDM compatibility is a unique feature of Loftsails Blade designs and I hope that you find the information above useful in choosing the right mast for your sail!Good winds,Monty

just to add my 11 year old uses a simmer quad now and then which has a heavy rocker for flat water and he doesnt get pulled over the bars. hes still learning, has some stance issues and weighs 40 something kg.

hes on the right rig.

Why don't you recommend a Kult for a lightweight?

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gorgesailor said..

Freestyle sails are the worst this way - they have the highest COE & tightest leaches. You would have been better off on a Blade or Gator.

No, the Freek is just fine for what I use it for. I have other sails when I want to go fast or want to sail overpowered. The first time I tried it, I was actually way overpowered, and thought it was behaving fine. The Freek seems like a great sail for old school freestyle and switch ducking, based on a couple of sessions so far.

The point I was trying to make is that a new sail may need a few sessions to figure it out, and adapt to it. I know I will need a few more sessions just to see how different trim settings affect it.

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sboardcrazy said..
Why don't you recommend a Kult for a lightweight?

because it was designed for heavyweight wave sailors doing bump and jump. the new models lost their wave orientation but looking at them they still look very similar to the old design in the head. I have used kults since around 2002 and stopped replacing them when they got more freeride focused because they gradually got more and more rigid.

on the water kults feel heavy when underpowered because they are not a dynamic sail. That plus the high skin tension when combined with an sdm mast translates to rigid. it's not designed to be a lightweight light handling sail for light winds. for heavy sailors in good wind it's a great blasting sail. at speed it's stable and can point to windward really well plus take a beating.

the old ka kaos was a much lighter handling sail on an rdm mast. kinda chalk and cheese really.

regardless of brand. At your size it would pay to focus on brands that make lightweight sails for lighter sailors.

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Gestalt said..

sboardcrazy said..
Why don't you recommend a Kult for a lightweight?

because it was designed for heavyweight wave sailors doing bump and jump. the new models lost their wave orientation but looking at them they still look very similar to the old design in the head. I have used kults since around 2002 and stopped replacing them when they got more freeride focused because they gradually got more and more rigid.

on the water kults feel heavy when underpowered because they are not a dynamic sail. That plus the high skin tension when combined with an sdm mast translates to rigid. it's not designed to be a lightweight light handling sail for light winds. for heavy sailors in good wind it's a great blasting sail. at speed it's stable and can point to windward really well plus take a beating.

the old ka kaos was a much lighter handling sail on an rdm mast. kinda chalk and cheese really.

regardless of brand. At your size it would pay to focus on brands that make lightweight sails for lighter sailors.

Thanks.
That's why I have Severne overdrives and turbos . I like their relative lightweight.
I might have to have another look at the Gator. It's bit of a bummer as I can get a demo Kult at a great price but I will have to buy the other new..