Select to expand quote

MobZ said..
In recent years we've had a school turn up at our local spot Jimmy's beach nsw.
Every day we are heading at people (the schools customers) whom we don't know, and boat-loads more of them arriving throughout the session making it real hard to judge skill level of the other users around quickly.
Most of the time it's kites, sometimes teaching foiling behind boat.

It keeps us, (just two sailors here mostly) on our toes.
There is often about 10 kites, i think there has been up to 20 some days.
It is a very confined spot to run along the beach in flat-water.

From the few customers i've talked to, some after a collision, i am told that zero instruction on avoiding other water users is given.

I have made some great gybes as the sky above became littered with kites and guys sliding on their faces in front of my board attached to out of control kites, as if my life depended on it, which it probably did.
It is an advanced spot, straight offshore wind going into a bay with currents that will pull to sea out the heads very quickly.
But they have a rescue boat. So it's all good for them. Someone with 1hr experience gets to play in a world class spot.

I was self taught here in the early days of kites on a two string C kite and then later a couple of seasons on modern bow kites with de-power.
Just a few years of it before i felt it was better suited to windsurfing for many reasons.

Other than improve my own skill, or not sail here, i struggle to find ways to mitigate the new risks from the school.
I've had a few talks with them, but i gather it is the nature of their business to bring as many learners here as possible so it's futile.

We need backup. We need an army of speedsters to come and help make sailors presence felt, some gybe freaks that can chuck buckets of spray, and maybe some freestyle guru's too.
I'm working on it. But it is a slow process.

Sounds a lot like one of the main local kite spots. I went there as a beginner when I was absolutely clueless and got comments like "hey I thought windsurfers were supposed to be faster than kites! " and spent a lot of time worrying about getting hit, when I was probably a big obnoxious obstacle...

Then I found the local windsurf spot and mostly avoided that except in certain wind directions, but I can launch and stay downwind of them and not have to worry as much, as it's more wavy and usually only the more aware kiters are down there.

The good thing though is they DO have the rescue boats and jetskis, which means that if I really get into trouble or break something, I can probably whistle/flag down a rescue boat quickly.

Select to expand quote

MobZ said..
In recent years we've had a school turn up at our local spot Jimmy's beach nsw.
..
It keeps us, (just two sailors here mostly) on our toes.
But they have a rescue boat. So it's all good for them. Someone with 1hr experience gets to play in a world class spot.

I was self taught here in the early days of kites on a two string C kite and then later a couple of seasons on modern bow kites with de-power.

Other than improve my own skill, or not sail here, i struggle to find ways to mitigate the new risks from the school.
I've had a few talks with them, but i gather it is the nature of their business to bring as many learners here as possible so it's futile.

We need backup. We need an army of speedsters to come and help make sailors presence felt, some gybe freaks that can chuck buckets of spray, and maybe some freestyle guru's too.
I'm working on it. But it is a slow process.

So, now that you've had the privilege of learning at this spot and sailing there for many years, you now have "ownership", and today's learners must go elsewhere? (Even though, as you said yourself, they do come with instructors and rescue support which you never had??)
Oh, the irony of your statements!
Best solution: keep well clear of all noobies while working on improving your own skills where you can safely do so. They're much less able to sail to an uncrowded area than you are.

Sandee,
I am a noobie windsurfer and may do as you say - leave this spot to the noobie kiters and come to the spot where you are kiting and practice there.

The photo i posted is of a kiter with some experience, just not enough to know to look behind.

You make it sound like the kite school should have ownership over the spot. Sounds about right to whats happening.

It is great to see an instructor teaching people in the shallows, but the business bringing intermediate riders en-masse which ride like no one else is there, is crap.

I recently sailed a newbie kite pond because it's a killer spot at high tide and leads to a bump and jump spot. At my local the kites are mostly excellent, everyone's friendly, some are ex windsurfers, some friends.
I'd forgotten how crazy it can be. At the newb kite pond, Holly ****, Wtf! People getting rag dolled, kites in trees, power poles, kites power diving into the ground besides families.

people asking me to help them launch. That's a concern for me

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..


people asking me to help them launch. That's a concern for me

Just chuck the kite in the air. See how they go with it.

Select to expand quote

MobZ said..
Sandee,
I am a noobie windsurfer and may do as you say - leave this spot to the noobie kiters and come to the spot where you are kiting and practice there.

The photo i posted is of a kiter with some experience, just not enough to know to look behind.

You make it sound like the kite school should have ownership over the spot. Sounds about right to whats happening.

It is great to see an instructor teaching people in the shallows, but the business bringing intermediate riders en-masse which ride like no one else is there, is crap.

Sorry I missed the bit where you stated that you're a noobie windsurfer, and got the impression that you're an accomplished sailor getting frustrated by noobie kiters obstructing your speed runs.
I guess your comment:
"We need backup. We need an army of speedsters to come and help make sailors presence felt, some gybe freaks that can chuck buckets of spray, and maybe some freestyle guru's too."
makes it sound like you want lots of windsurfers to take over this spot and intimidate any other water users!
Like that's somehow going to be any better than a mob of learner kiters?

Nobody has ownership at any spot (although it sure can feel that way when you're new to it!) and I'm always happy to share the water with sailors of any skill level on any craft, and just try to keep out of everyone's way as best I can. But we can all make mistakes and maybe not see someone catching up from behind (or obscured by your wing /sail).

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

Gestalt said..


people asking me to help them launch. That's a concern for me

Just chuck the kite in the air. See how they go with it.

I told a guy once, sorry mate I'm not a kiter.

He said oh sorry I thought you were because of your harness.

I replied no sorry I'm a windsurfer, then added a dramatic pause and continued. I evolved....

Select to expand quote

Sandee said..

MobZ said..
Sandee,
I am a noobie windsurfer and may do as you say - leave this spot to the noobie kiters and come to the spot where you are kiting and practice there.

The photo i posted is of a kiter with some experience, just not enough to know to look behind.

You make it sound like the kite school should have ownership over the spot. Sounds about right to whats happening.

It is great to see an instructor teaching people in the shallows, but the business bringing intermediate riders en-masse which ride like no one else is there, is crap.

Sorry I missed the bit where you stated that you're a noobie windsurfer, and got the impression that you're an accomplished sailor getting frustrated by noobie kiters obstructing your speed runs.
I guess your comment:
"We need backup. We need an army of speedsters to come and help make sailors presence felt, some gybe freaks that can chuck buckets of spray, and maybe some freestyle guru's too."
makes it sound like you want lots of windsurfers to take over this spot and intimidate any other water users!
Like that's somehow going to be any better than a mob of learner kiters?

Nobody has ownership at any spot (although it sure can feel that way when you're new to it!) and I'm always happy to share the water with sailors of any skill level on any craft, and just try to keep out of everyone's way as best I can. But we can all make mistakes and maybe not see someone catching up from behind (or obscured by your wing /sail).

You are correct, nobody owns a sailing spot. but from Mobs description, right now the kite school "owns " the spot. There's only two windsurfers out there, so no need to teach their learners on water etiquette when it comes to other water users. Yep, they should be doing it anyway as a matter of practice, but coming from other spots, it doesn't seem to be common for kite schools to teach the basics of looking out for others. Basics as in glancing over your shoulder before a direction change, or jumping. and spending a brief amount of time looking at how things go at a new spot before heading out.

from one perspective Mobs touting sounds a bit nasty towards the kiters, but having more windsurfers there wouldn't really be a case of taking over. More a case of balancing things up, and making it apparent to the kite school that they're not the only users of the area. I've seen it in a few spots with different users, quite often when theres a mix of both it helps to set up some basic (generally unwritten) ground rules that help keep the harmony happening.

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..

I told a guy once, sorry mate I'm not a kiter.

He said oh sorry I thought you were because of your harness.

I replied no sorry I'm a windsurfer, then added a dramatic pause and continued. I evolved....

Lol, I occasionally launch kites if no-one else is around and only ever let go after they give me the thumbs up. Some people don't so then I wait for a bit and eventually just drop the kite on the beach and move on as they likely didn't had any lessons previously so probably shouldn't fly a dangerous kite.

I couldn't help it

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

Gestalt said..


people asking me to help them launch. That's a concern for me

Just chuck the kite in the air. See how they go with it.

Please dont be careless when launching, its the most dangerous moment. The kiter needs a second to check lines are not crossed. If they are the kite goes into a "death roll" and is uncontrolable. I made the mistake of asking an inexperienced launcher to help me, she threw the kite up before I was ready, the kite powers up spins and launched me 10m before I could blink. Luckily an expert kiter saw and caught the kite on its downward spin and saved me from a very dangerous situation. And I am very experienced but didnt see that coming.

I would add, the shock of that experience is def a factor in me returning to windsurfing.

Both prejudice and just idiots. It's a self feeding loop. We became prejudiced because of the idiotic behaviour of many kiters.

Select to expand quote

Jasonwave said..

Please dont be careless when launching, its the most dangerous moment. The kiter needs a second to check lines are not crossed. If they are the kite goes into a "death roll" and is uncontrolable. I made the mistake of asking an inexperienced launcher to help me, she threw the kite up before I was ready, the kite powers up spins and launched me 10m before I could blink. Luckily an expert kiter saw and caught the kite on its downward spin and saved me from a very dangerous situation. And I am very experienced but didnt see that coming.

I would add, the shock of that experience is def a factor in me returning to windsurfing.

Yer, that happened to me (I caused it). I've helped launch many kites, but it's normally a long time between drinks so to speak (pun not intended) and I forget the technical details. I new kiter arrives at my spot and asks me about the conditions. It was a really bad wind gradient that day. He's not sounding confident, and so I asked him if he wanted me to launch his kite. Long story short: I balls'ed it up and I made him look like a clown in front of the other kiters . Then, he self launches, and starts doing loops and jumps. Fark me, the guy's a pro !!!. Why did he accept my offer ???. Anyway, it made me realise there's more to it than just letting go.

Select to expand quote

Jasonwave said..

Subsonic said..

Gestalt said..


people asking me to help them launch. That's a concern for me

Just chuck the kite in the air. See how they go with it.

Please dont be careless when launching, its the most dangerous moment. The kiter needs a second to check lines are not crossed. If they are the kite goes into a "death roll" and is uncontrolable. I made the mistake of asking an inexperienced launcher to help me, she threw the kite up before I was ready, the kite powers up spins and launched me 10m before I could blink. Luckily an expert kiter saw and caught the kite on its downward spin and saved me from a very dangerous situation. And I am very experienced but didnt see that coming.

I would add, the shock of that experience is def a factor in me returning to windsurfing.

It was a bit of sarcasm, in mind of Gesalts kiter friends asking randoms to help them launch, which i would think to be a no no, since you'd have no idea of the experience of the launcher. Great way to get into strife.


whilst i have to admit to having the odd giggle at kiters c0cking up a jump and doing a self inflicted face plant, i'd never intentionally hot launch a kite.

Kite cock ups on water are generally hilarious to watch as usually without consequence. Kite cock ups on land can really hurt, and always the kiters fault, no excuses, their total responsibility.

I learnt as a kiter that the danger you pose to yourself or others doesn't really sink in fully until the humbling moment you have at best a near miss. Explains but not excuses some dumb behavior. As a mainly windsurfer now I keep a good distance, preferably upwind of them.
And then lesser experienced kiters are usually preoccupied with what the kite is doing, not what is going on around them. So if the kiter is looking up at the kite alot, find another lane ideally upwind.
undertaking (overtaking nearby and downwind) is always annoying whatever you are riding. You certainly dont wanna undertake a kiter, those strings are long and like cheese slicers if they come down, tangle you then power back up.

It was easy when kiting was 'the new thing' and our only enemy ... but we are mates again now ...I think... mostly.

Now we have the wingers to hate on.... oh and foiling of every type.... e foiling especially is going to grow at every spot and we will hate them lots too....

I remember the '80's when we were 'the new thing'..... jeez we pissed off lots of surfers... and sailors and swimmers and Pub owners and accomodation owners in Marimbula every November .... but hay I think we are mates with them again now as well (well I hope so!).

It's **** being the new kid and trying to fit in.



And just wait until these guys take over your local spot.....

Select to expand quote

peterowensbabs said..
It was easy when kiting was 'the new thing' and our only enemy ... but we are mates again now ...I think... mostly.

Now we have the wingers to hate on.... oh and foiling of every type.... e foiling especially is going to grow at every spot and we will hate them lots too....

I remember the '80's when we were 'the new thing'..... jeez we pissed off lots of surfers... and sailors and swimmers and Pub owners and accomodation owners in Marimbula every November .... but hay I think we are mates with them again now as well (well I hope so!).

It's **** being the new kid and trying to fit in.



And just wait until these guys take over your local spot.....

The small local versions (foiling A-Cats) are my buds and when we get together, all we do is talk foils - cats, wind, wing, e. They also participate in our annual windsurf regatta (as windsurfers ). Yeah, it's generally the new kid in town that ruffles the feathers.

Select to expand quote

peterowensbabs said..
Now we have the wingers to hate on.... oh and foiling of every type.... e foiling especially is going to grow at every spot and we will hate them lots too....

I can see that in waves that are already crowded, similar to how SUP surfers were hated when SUP surfing came out. I don't think it's much of an issue for bump & jump and flatwater locations, though. Windsurfers tend to go back and forth in a narrow area since they can't go upwind well. Some kiters like to stick to the same areas, either out of habit as former windsurfers, or to be near shore to show off, and they can be a PITA. But foilers can go upwind so easily that they will usually choose to go away a bit to uncrowded areas, once they start thinking they can control the foil. Beginners can be a different story - but fortunately, learning winging is a lot easier than learning to windsurf (in planing conditions).

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..
If I never have to share a break with another kite I'll be a happy man.

I've never shared a break with 'em, oh they've been out there but sharing pffft.

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..
You are correct, nobody owns a sailing spot. but from Mobs description, right now the kite school "owns " the spot. There's only two windsurfers out there, so no need to teach their learners on water etiquette when it comes to other water users. Yep, they should be doing it anyway as a matter of practice, but coming from other spots, it doesn't seem to be common for kite schools to teach the basics of looking out for others. Basics as in glancing over your shoulder before a direction change, or jumping. and spending a brief amount of time looking at how things go at a new spot before heading out.

from one perspective Mobs touting sounds a bit nasty towards the kiters, but having more windsurfers there wouldn't really be a case of taking over. More a case of balancing things up, and making it apparent to the kite school that they're not the only users of the area. I've seen it in a few spots with different users, quite often when theres a mix of both it helps to set up some basic (generally unwritten) ground rules that help keep the harmony happening.

Thank you, you've summed it up better than me.
I should say no more in case i get it wrong again and sound like a d*** but i'll try.

Put it this way - a mate got hit in the mast inches above his head from a kiter that had come from very far upwind in the air. He was very close to serious injury or death.
The learners in the shallows with instructors should be given space for sure.
They are not the trouble, it is the other riders that come with them. They are doing loops and big airs over us. Some are pro's.
Experienced, but not good enough to know to look first, or give a damn and just take the risk anyway.

It would be different if people came on their own steam.
This happens sometimes, a guy or gal comes walking up the beach with a kite, and i am the first to say g'day and happy to have some company.
It's just different when it is a business, bringing as many as possible. Good for them, bad for us.
When you don't know a spot, the conditions, or the people there, but you can pay and get boated in from the city, and boost within minutes of arriving, it makes problems.
Local etiquette is a thing worth respecting.

Locals are not liking that the operation takes over the beach. People cannot use the area for swimming, fishing, supping etc when it is on as they have done in the past.

I am probably bitter that various things led to the end of the thriving sailing community here.
It was windsurfing bliss once. The top 4 slalom windsurfers in the world were here to compete along with 200 others for the race events.
Now it is just two of us dodging the army of kites, the 3rd fella that got hit is not scared amazingly and still goes out when it's cranking too.
It is what it is.

Anyway, i am a firm believer that windsurfing is about to make a come back. If pickleball did, windsurfing can. Stranger things have happened.
Watch this space, they are coming, an epic windsurfing race is about to come back to this spot.

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..
people asking me to help them launch. That's a concern for me

As long as you can talk them through it, lots of people can launch your kite for you.

I remember there were three women watching one of their sons learn to kite, none of which had ever kited. I asked them to help launch my kite. One of them volunteered. I just talked her through it, and importantly the bit about where if I 'do this' put the kite down, but only release it if I 'do this'. Like all kite launches, it is up to the kiter to find themselves in the right position and only let the kite be released when its right.

Select to expand quote

Jasonwave said..
Kite cock ups on water are generally hilarious to watch as usually without consequence. Kite cock ups on land can really hurt, and always the kiters fault, no excuses, their total responsibility.
.

Kite schools don't seem to teach as much about safety these days. I think they want to reduce the number of lessons so that customers don't get annoyed with the cost. When i started learning 15 years ago, the school did a lot of talking on safety and procedures. I did lessons again many years later and all that stuff was ignored.

Recently I went to a kite spot where crazy russians came into shore, overpowered, and then tried to land their kite instantly on the beach. No understanding of how dangerous it was for other people or even themselves.

As a kiter the most trouble I get is at spots where there is a designated windsurf area. Like in Geraldton, where it creates a lot of agro from grumpy windsurfers thinking you are too close to the (invisible) line.

I've had guys "play chicken", run over my board, a mate was directly collided with (with the boom), etc etc.

And to be fair my experience is that it's never your locals (like Jaeger), they're cool as hell. It's your European tourist trying to regulate like in Europe.

Where as at my local where its all in and not regulated, everyone is spread out and there isn't an apartheid type attitude. Everyone gets along great.

Side comment on comparative activity levels : the kitesurf section here used to be very active, it now seems sleepy and less active than this windsurf section.
i haven't taken away (or given) much of interest from the kitesurf forum in a long time, compared to here - kiting technology and technique seems to have plateau'd so less new stuff to discuss perhaps

meanwhile, given my tendency to get catapulted at speed, Im the idiot to keep clear of on the water.

Select to expand quote

bjw said..
As a kiter the most trouble I get is at spots where there is a designated windsurf area. Like in Geraldton, where it creates a lot of agro from grumpy windsurfers thinking you are too close to the (invisible) line.

I've had guys "play chicken", run over my board, a mate was directly collided with (with the boom), etc etc.

And to be fair my experience is that it's never your locals (like Jaeger), they're cool as hell. It's your European tourist trying to regulate like in Europe.

Where as at my local where its all in and not regulated, everyone is spread out and there isn't an apartheid type attitude. Everyone gets along great.

I sail at Coros for about 3months per year every summer for more than 10yrs.

Firstly, almost every gets along awesomely. Just this summer was a big day, my gear was washed more than 80m away with no hope of me getting back to the gear -> a nice kiter towed me to the gear.

What we dont like from both sports - is dickheads. Again this summer there was a dickhead kiter dropping his board from 10m height into the middle of the break, and then his lines actually hitting someone.

As for the "line" that you describe, there are actual signs and a town-ordinance which specifically separates the groups, for safety reasons. Thus what you say is mostly bull**** - dont be that dickhead.