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ptsf1111 said..
Then still, who'd you send the SMS to. Better hope they see it in time. You would need to find a way to include your position too. Major benefit is two way comms though. I would ring someone instead, one click from the homescreen if you have it setup.

It's a satellite emergency beacon incorporated in the phone. Position etc are push button sent to the emergency services, with the possibility of SMS style communication with the latter. Great development imo
support.apple.com/en-us/101573

If you sail or foil with a cambered sail, and you fall in with the cams down--the sail is like a big empty bowl--it will drift faster than you can swim. I know this from experience.

1. So, sail only with a camless sail that acts like a sea anchor.

2. More importantly, never let go of your boom when you crash.

3. Sail with other people, so they can stop your gear until you catch up.

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Yawning said..
Sandee .....
We are not suggesting it`s age related , more like ability related . I don`t have the ability to be a pro super cross rider so I`m not going to even try .
If you lose your rig you swim to shore , whether it`s a 100m or 1km . If you can`t swim then stay out of the water until you can , it will kill you .

It depends. In a couple of locations in the Bay Area I regularly sail 2-4 km from shore, but I suspect few people can actually swim 1 km, and very few could really swim much against moderate wind and chop. Not to mention currents. Where I sail a tide can go up to 3-4 knots. So, if you are an olympic level swimmer you'd be able to stay in place. Everybody else, would loose ground fast.

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Yawning said..
Sandee .....
We are not suggesting it`s age related , more like ability related . I don`t have the ability to be a pro super cross rider so I`m not going to even try .
If you lose your rig you swim to shore , whether it`s a 100m or 1km . If you can`t swim then stay out of the water until you can , it will kill you .

I can swim but the sort of situation I've experienced I doubt an Olympic swimmer would catch the gear.
I was sailing in moguls at speed and got ejected out the side.I think my foot got bounced out the strap..
The kit stayed upright and continued sailing for 200m. The twin cam then landed so it acted like a sail and was being blown away downwind.
Luckily I did have someone else out there that day. He got the gear and held it.
It was still drifting but slower. By the time I caught it I was pretty stuffed but managed to sail in.
I like twin cams because I like to try and go fast in chop and they are better for bearaways.
Once it's 20kts I'm on camless.

Losing gear isn't life or limb.
Don't sail where you can't swim to safety if uninjured.

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Grantmac said..
Losing gear isn't life or limb.
Don't sail where you can't swim to safety if uninjured.

I'd drift ashore eventually. If I knew I had backup I'd probably be less worried and just let it go and drift.
I'd hang off setting it off but the lake can be 11 degrees in winter that would be a factor.

What`s with this Olympic swimmer nonsense ?
Since when has treading water and sidestroke been an Olympic event ?
Why would anyone put trying to recover their gear over their life ? Just forget about your gear and head to safety .
Why would anyone try to swim against a current or tide ? just plain stupidity .
Wave sailors chase down gear all the time , quite often over a reef break . And sometimes we`ve to deal with a broken mast in a pumping swell , a long way offshore .
Don`t count on others to put their lives at risk to save yours .
If you want to carry safety gear I got no problem .

But in context to this thread , I would of thought not being able to swim to your gear in a lake a basic skills issue . It just seems to me swimming is important and a prerequisite for being in the water . After all , it will kill you .

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Grantmac said..
Losing gear isn't life or limb.
Don't sail where you can't swim to safety if uninjured.

Uninjured is the key thing here! Stuff happens, including but not limited to injury, that can make swimming impossible, even for someone as proficient as 'Yawning' thinks he is!

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Yawning said..
What`s with this Olympic swimmer nonsense ?
Since when has treading water and sidestroke been an Olympic event ?
Why would anyone put trying to recover their gear over their life ? Just forget about your gear and head to safety .
Why would anyone try to swim against a current or tide ? just plain stupidity .
Wave sailors chase down gear all the time , quite often over a reef break . And sometimes we`ve to deal with a broken mast in a pumping swell , a long way offshore .
Don`t count on others to put their lives at risk to save yours .
If you want to carry safety gear I got no problem .

But in context to this thread , I would of thought not being able to swim to your gear in a lake a basic skills issue . It just seems to me swimming is important and a prerequisite for being in the water . After all , it will kill you .

Olympic swimmers are only mentioned as a comparison to say such feats are well beyond normal human capabilities.
You say "don't count on others to put their lives at risk", but this is essentially what you're doing if you don't turn up at home as expected, and someone eventually calls out a search for your small body (which may /may not be still alive) in a huge body of water.
Do you really want your loved ones to try to console each other by saying "he died doing something he loved.", just because you had an injury or a medical event that affected your swimming /sailing ability? After several days of searching & praying by multiple people across a wide area, and likely in adverse conditions? When a timely & targeted search could've been started as soon as you realised you needed help?
Seems a bit selfish when you look at it that way, doesn't it?

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MobZ said..
$5 bucks a month, no way!?

Yeah it adds 5 bucks a month to my phone plan. Only hassle is the watch can ring when you're on the water!!

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Sandee said..

Grantmac said..
Losing gear isn't life or limb.
Don't sail where you can't swim to safety if uninjured.

Uninjured is the key thing here! Stuff happens, including but not limited to injury, that can make swimming impossible, even for someone as proficient as 'Yawning' thinks he is!

I think you missed the context of what was written.

Stuff certainly does happen. It can happen when you are on your own, and happens with other people around. Even when people are around, they may not be able to provide any assistance.

Using a PLB/Epirb, a floatation-device sewn into your harness, or whatever technique you choose... are also good ideas.

But ultimately we all need to take responsibility for our actions as the first item on the list - being able to self-rescue (aka something as simple and tough as swimming to the shore), and making sensible decisions, are prerequisites before those other things being suggested here.

God there's some rubbish here

I personally have seen a phone based GPS alert thing be off by about 2km. On land. It took us hours to figure it out. If nobody knew you were on the water, it would be no help at all, especially after a couple of hours of drift.

Then for the heroes - go sail hard for two hours then try survival strokes in 6ft of chop 30kn wind and with one leg or one arm fkd... it's not the same as what you legends reckon you do in a pool.

I would not be writing this if that one guy didn't hear me yelling - 800m offshore with dislocated shoulder. Me, not him lol

hmm, why not just update your "evolving" coordinates with a follow up sat-sms.
I use phone GPS all the time in alpine terrain, very very accurate, so much i do not carry a Garmin anymore.

But okay, skepticism and/or silly bravado dominate this thread. That first seaborne broken limb/hypothermia usually liberates.

I have this, but I live in the Netherlands. Tested it with my mate who is the captain of the local lifeboat .
They found me between the waves in 15 minutes...
safetrxactive.com/en/?_gl=1*1en229r*_ga*NjAwODU2MjgyLjE3NTM4ODY5MjY.*_ga_YL7JBL4R8K*czE3NTM4ODY5MjYkbzEkZzAkdDE3NTM4ODY5MjYkajYwJGwwJGgw&_ga=2.85338777.104048495.1753886926-600856282.1753886926
On the website it says coming soon to Australia, but the buddy to buddy works all over the world.

I wasn't going to jump into this thread as there is already plenty of discussion, I think there is common thread that people are missing.

Lets start with the elephant in the room - Australia is big and the ocean is even bigger. Now a hypothetical injury, something serious enough where you cannot make your way back to the beach on your own. You fire off the PLB/Epirb/phone/watch/flares/pixie-dust.

If you are at a town-beach, then the local police or emergency services will eventually start looking for you. This could be within a few minutes, but more likely 10's of minutes at least. You are in the water with an injury waiting for a rescue. You are drifting and its windy and choppy. Any water-rescue is going to be at least an hour later because the boat isn't in the water (unless you happen to be very close to lifeguard services and it is when they are on duty).

... even if the rescue was within 10mins, in the middle of summer, at most of the city-beaches -> you are going to be in shock, and hypothermia is likely.

A lot of places we sail, aren't town-beaches - they are remote. Take for example Lake George, Beachport - injuries have occurred. No emergency services will be hauling you out of the water for at least a dozen hours. Coronation Beach is similar, it might take a few hours less. In that time, you are on your own.

Australia simply doesn't have the rescue services available, that these technologies require. 4G doesn't work in most places we sail. Line-of-sight for radio signals are typically 2km at the water surface and 6km for a few metres up. Satellite does work, but the receiving stations are few and far between.

What tends to be useful -> sailing with other people, self-rescue, and making good choices before you go on the water.

My tips for myself:
- I shouldn't sail out further than I am prepared to swim, with or without gear)
- I really shouldn't be swimming into a headwind, which implies not sailing in offshore-winds.
- wear suitable wetsuits/etc


Aside - we also need to remember that we aren't adversaries, there really isn't any need to be angry on this forum.

When we first start sailing, go off the beach, and not know how to turn around, we know it's real that we have to get ourselves back otherwise the water will eat us, and that's the rush. And why the skills get built.
Then on and on, speed sailing on ankle deep water, jumps, ocean, it just gets more dangerous, but more controlled too, pushing..
Acceptance that things could go wrong is part of the equation of happy sailing i think.
Ie: when i go surfing, every time i know a shark can nab me, and there's nothing i can do about it, but relax.

I am a very good swimmer and swimming is not part of my contingency plan here because of sharks, currents, waves.
The best plan i can come up with is to hang on to board, drift and wait. Have a light.
Jimmy's beach is best in straight offshore wind (into a big bay) and i'm mostly alone. Dangerous but beautiful. If i didn't learnt to sail here i wouldn't be sailing.

Spot on Mathew

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mathew said..
I wasn't going to jump into this thread as there is already plenty of discussion, I think there is common thread that people are missing.

Lets start with the elephant in the room - Australia is big and the ocean is even bigger. Now a hypothetical injury, something serious enough where you cannot make your way back to the beach on your own. You fire off the PLB/Epirb/phone/watch/flares/pixie-dust.

If you are at a town-beach, then the local police or emergency services will eventually start looking for you. This could be within a few minutes, but more likely 10's of minutes at least. You are in the water with an injury waiting for a rescue. You are drifting and its windy and choppy. Any water-rescue is going to be at least an hour later because the boat isn't in the water (unless you happen to be very close to lifeguard services and it is when they are on duty).

... even if the rescue was within 10mins, in the middle of summer, at most of the city-beaches -> you are going to be in shock, and hypothermia is likely.

A lot of places we sail, aren't town-beaches - they are remote. Take for example Lake George, Beachport - injuries have occurred. No emergency services will be hauling you out of the water for at least a dozen hours. Coronation Beach is similar, it might take a few hours less. In that time, you are on your own.

Australia simply doesn't have the rescue services available, that these technologies require. 4G doesn't work in most places we sail. Line-of-sight for radio signals are typically 2km at the water surface and 6km for a few metres up. Satellite does work, but the receiving stations are few and far between.

What tends to be useful -> sailing with other people, self-rescue, and making good choices before you go on the water.

My tips for myself:
- I shouldn't sail out further than I am prepared to swim, with or without gear)
- I really shouldn't be swimming into a headwind, which implies not sailing in offshore-winds.
- wear suitable wetsuits/etc


Aside - we also need to remember that we aren't adversaries, there really isn't any need to be angry on this forum.

fully agree too -- it's never only one thing. and there is no such thing as zero risk in the environments we play in.

ps: I've sailed both remote and city beaches in Oz

I have used the cheapo 4G trackers for sailing and also vehicle tracking. The Aldi 365 day pay as you go plans are the best value. From memory only about $20 a year.

I would never sail alone in a place that I do not feel combatable with my self rescue ability. There is no substitute for a reliable mate keeping an eye on you.

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Mark _australia said..
....

I would not be writing this if that one guy didn't hear me yelling - 800m offshore with dislocated shoulder. Me, not him lol

That's a coincidence. August 2023 I rescued a windsurfer with a dislocated shoulder. He was about 400m downwind from the main play area, and 500m from the beach. Nobody else saw him in the water. I only saw him because I choose to rig and launch in a nicer area and do the mile upwind so I can finish the session with a downwind blast.

He was 77yo and could not get himself onto his board. He had been sitting in the water for 45 minutes and had two crappy wetsuits on and was getting close to severe hypothermia.

I starting towing him and his gear in but he couldn't hold onto his gear and get towed. He let go of his gear and I towed him to the beach where bystanders took charge and waited for the ambulance etc. His gear was found downwind at the next beach. I am told his core temperature was around 28 degrees which is pretty serious hypothermia.

In retrospect, he should have ditched his gear and just back kicked to the beach. He would have stayed warmer and been out of the water sooner.

Also in retrospect, I should have left him and gone to my car and called 000 then returned to look after him. I think a rescue boat would have got there sooner that it took me to tow him in. I didn't have the Apple watch at the time so I couldn't call for help from the water. The internet tells me SOS from an Apple watch works without a plan or phone.

On the day I was wing foiling wearing a sealed seam, thermal lined 4mm wetsuit with hood. WIth the higher workload of winging I was toasty warm and still warm after a couple of hours of Melbourne winter weather. A good wetsuit is your last line of defence if you have to spend a long time in the water. A single good quality wetsuit is far more effective, and more comfortable, than wearing multiple layers of thinner wetsuits. A relatively thick wetsuit easily matches any buoyancy gain you get from an impact vest.

Rescue me brand offer a plb that is compulsory on offshore yacht races, they also offer a personal AIS locator that is compulsory as well.

The PLB works on satellite and could take some time for a search to be organised but it's has worldwide coverage. It's a personal epirb.

The AIS locator works on a VHF signal alerting all boats in area with AIS capability of a man overboard situation. The idea being in yacht racing the boat you fell off or one close by is the bost best placed to rescue you and it guides them back to your location. Many boats now have AIS so a very good chance a close boat will get the alert and respond.

Our life jackets for sailing have both devices, if one of us goes overboard while wearing the jacket the boat will light up with alarms. As well as any other boat in the vicinity with AIS. Plus AMSA will get a epirb alarm.

Now rescue me have made a combined plb/ais locator. Not cheap but you would not thinks its expensive euther of you needed it.

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tbwonder said..
I have used the cheapo 4G trackers for sailing and also vehicle tracking. The Aldi 365 day pay as you go plans are the best value. From memory only about $20 a year.

I would never sail alone in a place that I do not feel combatable with my self rescue ability. There is no substitute for a reliable mate keeping an eye on you.

It's getting lonely on the lake.. I tired an Aldi sim with the 4g tracker and they said it wouldn't work..
I bought one of these..

great choice

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Yawning said..
What`s with this Olympic swimmer nonsense ?
Since when has treading water and sidestroke been an Olympic event ?
Why would anyone put trying to recover their gear over their life ? Just forget about your gear and head to safety .
Why would anyone try to swim against a current or tide ? just plain stupidity .
Wave sailors chase down gear all the time , quite often over a reef break . And sometimes we`ve to deal with a broken mast in a pumping swell , a long way offshore .
Don`t count on others to put their lives at risk to save yours .
If you want to carry safety gear I got no problem .

But in context to this thread , I would of thought not being able to swim to your gear in a lake a basic skills issue . It just seems to me swimming is important and a prerequisite for being in the water . After all , it will kill you .

Jeez mate go easy.

As stated above"Aside - we also need to remember that we aren't adversaries, there really isn't any need to be angry on this forum."

Sue is not wave sailing not in the ocean nor stupid.

Your aggressive reply is not warranted. Sue is doing the right thing seeking advice, weighing up her options etc etc. The EPERB she is going too use is good.

We are a community and I for one would will and have dropped everything to help someone in trouble, and have been rescued as well.
I don't know if you have ever had the misfortune to cop an injury whilst out windsurfing? I was a regular body surfer and would spend hours in the surf and consider my self fit for my age (61) but I can assure you even a small injury can dramatically reduce your ability to swim to safety or even after gear.

All Safity gadgets, personal EPERBS, inflatable carrots, dye marking devices, orange v sheets, phone based beacons are hard to operate when in pain, exhausted, cold or fearful.

Having attended a few yacht man over board training sessions even with a proper rated life jacket the expected survival time in any moderate rough sea state is a scarily short time. If the person has a life ring etc it doubled but is still dangerous. The time needed to dump sails wash off speed locate the MOB and return is considered touch and go even for a well practiced efficiant crew. People are trained to NOT attempt to swim any distance to a vessel but rather to remain and get collected. Side stroke swimming is not efficient and uses far too much energy float on your back and kick, just enough to move, any distance will be marathon, panic will grip, hyperventilation will starve oxygen. It's easy to say keep calm etc but not realistic in practice.

Marine Rescue NSW (where sue sails) have a very good log on log off service on their app, log in let them know your vessel its type, expected route and expected return, if on a long trip or session you can set up "skeds" regular check ins eg every half hour. Just yesterday day I had to bring my own boat up the harbour through that feral storm and back to its mooring and felt reassured that ONE yes one minute over my ETA they were on the phone checking on me.

Great service.

www.marinerescuensw.com.au/boating-safety/marinerescue-app/

Stay safe

Stay kind

Stay stoked

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sboardcrazy said..

tbwonder said..
I have used the cheapo 4G trackers for sailing and also vehicle tracking. The Aldi 365 day pay as you go plans are the best value. From memory only about $20 a year.

I would never sail alone in a place that I do not feel combatable with my self rescue ability. There is no substitute for a reliable mate keeping an eye on you.

It's getting lonely on the lake.. I tired an Aldi sim with the 4g tracker and they said it wouldn't work..
I bought one of these..

I have the same one which I carry in my WIP impact vest. Fits well into the side pocked.

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sboardcrazy said..
I bought one of these..

Good, now watch everyone having a heart attack going 'where's Sue with the plb'.

It's like old timer fishermen i worked for, they only got more and more careful at sea as time went on and they survived. You'd think they'd get more confident and less careful, but no, not the good ones.

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Clue Thirst said..

sboardcrazy said..

tbwonder said..
I have used the cheapo 4G trackers for sailing and also vehicle tracking. The Aldi 365 day pay as you go plans are the best value. From memory only about $20 a year.

I would never sail alone in a place that I do not feel combatable with my self rescue ability. There is no substitute for a reliable mate keeping an eye on you.

It's getting lonely on the lake.. I tired an Aldi sim with the 4g tracker and they said it wouldn't work..
I bought one of these..

I have the same one which I carry in my WIP impact vest. Fits well into the side pocked.

Be careful having it in the side pocket.
I've busted my ribs many times hitting the boom or kit. I don't stack very often but do a good job when I do..
I soon worked out that the impact vest sides needed extra padding..the early ones weren't very good, but they must have taken feedback on board, because the later ones are more padded. I have the Forward impact vest.
The Neil Pride buoyancy vest I had gave no side protection..Maybe later ones have improved.
You don't want it anywhere it can be an impact hazard in a stack..

Yup, any object you carry including car keys can be a hazard. My PLB is in the back pocket of my impact vest and I think that's a reasonably safe position.

I've attached it to a rope and to the zipper so I can reach for it and rip it out.

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MobZ said..
...It's like old timer fishermen i worked for, they only got more and more careful at sea as time went on and they survived. You'd think they'd get more confident and less careful, but no, not the good ones.

The thing with us old buzzards is that we've seen more ways things go wrong than you can imagine.

And, there's this song which explains a lot.

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sboardcrazy said..

tbwonder said..
I have used the cheapo 4G trackers for sailing and also vehicle tracking. The Aldi 365 day pay as you go plans are the best value. From memory only about $20 a year.

I would never sail alone in a place that I do not feel combatable with my self rescue ability. There is no substitute for a reliable mate keeping an eye on you.

It's getting lonely on the lake.. I tired an Aldi sim with the 4g tracker and they said it wouldn't work..
I bought one of these..

You can register it on the Maritime safety website with your contact info etc and emergency contacts so if its ever activated they will know who they are looking for. You could even include details about being a windsurfer etc.