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Freeflight said..

No one person dominated either
Give me more of this !

It was a good event.
10 eliminations, 7 different winners, plus 2 others who got a 2nd or 3rd.
Event won by 1 point, the last elimination decided it.

No heats abandoned because the wind dropped, iirc. But if they were fin only that could have been the case as the wind seemed like 13-20 knots all the time.

I'm not a fan of Grand Slam, as nobody does slalom and wave. Neither of Sylt as a venue, but they can attract the sponsorship.
34 entrants. Was this because it was limited a grand slam, or just financial. 2019 and earlier there were high 50s, up to 64 at some events.

They didnt race one afternoon as they couldnt get the boats out, and presumably the foilers would have had big trouble as well. So we didnt get to see higher wind and swell/wave racing. They can run a maximum of 15 eliminations, and there was certainly enough wind to do that. It must have been frustrating for the racers to sit on the beach.

Double elimination for freestyle, single for women's wave, part completed double for men's wave.

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bel29 said..
some impressive (albeit somewhat stomach churning) hd drone footage from day #6 (incl some guys trying to battle it out on the fin)

That shows the potential of some better filming, although it made me slightly nauseous with all the seemingly unrelated to action ups and downs and turnings of the drone!

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duzzi said..
That shows the potential of some better filming, although it made me slightly nauseous with all the seemingly unrelated to action ups and downs and turnings of the drone!

Racing drones are no good for showing this type of event coverage. The 3-10 minute battery life aside, the footage they produce is great for a quick 30 second clip you post on a social or as a cut away during a highlights compile.

There was a live stream of one the foil slalom races filmed with a standard drone. Can't seem to find the link now. Good piloting skills meant it gave you a good view of the action without making you sick watching it. At a place like Sylt, where the action happens a fair bit away from the beach you need aerial coverage in addition to a camera with a long throw lens on the beach or a camera operator that doesn't easily get sea sick on the boat. Plus you need a backup plan in case of torrential rain / 40+ knt of winds.

50 minutes in, Jordy says he was pissed off as he took medium board & 7.8m sail and they didnt race because they couldnt get foils off the beach. Not everyone registered that sized fin kit. 1 day's racing, 3 eliminations didnt take place. Shocking state of affairs.

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PhilUK said..
50 minutes in, Jordy says he was pissed off as he took medium board & 7.8m sail and they didnt race because they couldnt get foils off the beach. Not everyone registered that sized fin kit. 1 day's racing, 3 eliminations didnt take place. Shocking state of affairs.

Very interesting video. My impression is that foil and fin in the same race is just not going to work, and fin slalom will just die out, and soon. The numbers are just too small to support both. Ideally you would have a fin slalom series and a foil slalom series, but clearly there is just enough money to have one series going. right now there is not even enough money to broadcast the top PWA event of the year!

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duzzi said..

Very interesting video. My impression is that foil and fin in the same race is just not going to work, and fin slalom will just die out, and soon. That is just because the numbers are just too small to support both. Ideally you would have a fin slalom series and a foil slalom series, but clearly there is just enough money to have one series going. There is not even enough money to broadcast the top PWA event of the year!

I've mentioned before about the numbers entered, 34, and was that restricted due to the grand slam and timescales, but Jordy didnt mention that and said the last fully fin event had 64 entrants, 2019 pre covid. Go somewhere for 10 days event, race 3 when more days were available, nah, sod that. The IQ Foil events have a lot of entrants. Next event in Brest in France, 14-22 October is the world championships. No need to take 60kg (guess) of kit like PWA. 280 (TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY) entered. PWA is toast.

iqfoilclass.org/iqworlds2022/entry-list/

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PhilUK said..

duzzi said..

Very interesting video. My impression is that foil and fin in the same race is just not going to work, and fin slalom will just die out, and soon. That is just because the numbers are just too small to support both. Ideally you would have a fin slalom series and a foil slalom series, but clearly there is just enough money to have one series going. There is not even enough money to broadcast the top PWA event of the year!

I've mentioned before about the numbers entered, 34, and was that restricted due to the grand slam and timescales, but Jordy didnt mention that and said the last fully fin event had 64 entrants, 2019 pre covid. Go somewhere for 10 days event, race 3 when more days were available, nah, sod that. The IQ Foil events have a lot of entrants. Next event in Brest in France, 14-22 October is the world championships. No need to take 60kg (guess) of kit like PWA. 280 (TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY) entered. PWA is toast.

iqfoilclass.org/iqworlds2022/entry-list/

Maybe 280 entered. But that's all of em. There is no pyramid, no pyramid, no money. No money no pros.

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sheddweller said..

PhilUK said..

duzzi said..

Very interesting video. My impression is that foil and fin in the same race is just not going to work, and fin slalom will just die out, and soon. That is just because the numbers are just too small to support both. Ideally you would have a fin slalom series and a foil slalom series, but clearly there is just enough money to have one series going. There is not even enough money to broadcast the top PWA event of the year!

I've mentioned before about the numbers entered, 34, and was that restricted due to the grand slam and timescales, but Jordy didnt mention that and said the last fully fin event had 64 entrants, 2019 pre covid. Go somewhere for 10 days event, race 3 when more days were available, nah, sod that. The IQ Foil events have a lot of entrants. Next event in Brest in France, 14-22 October is the world championships. No need to take 60kg (guess) of kit like PWA. 280 (TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY) entered. PWA is toast.

iqfoilclass.org/iqworlds2022/entry-list/

Maybe 280 entered. But that's all of em. There is no pyramid, no pyramid, no money. No money no pros.

While the PWA sailors may call themselves pros, one would be quite naive to go into this sport with plans of a full time paying career
I would suggest it is more a sport of passion where a few can get free equipment for promoting brands they use
Right now the brands can do ok selling foil gear so this is where the focus is

^^^
Foiling is huge now, it killed fin sailing.the PWA Comp was good in the 90s to say 2005.you could make a decent penny if you were in the top 20 in Slalom Waves & freestyle. The marketing back then was huge.nobody buys full race sails or boards anymore. Formula almost does not exist anymore. Wing wings & foiling has taken over. Will history repeat itself in this sport.hopeso!

Diversification. In the 90s you had windsurfing and surfing. Surfing wasn't nearly as big as it is now. Then came kiteboarding, SUPing, Wing Dinging. There seem to be just as many people active as there were in the 90s it's just that the interests have spread across several sports.

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gavnwend said..
^^^
Foiling is huge now, it killed fin sailing.the PWA Comp was good in the 90s to say 2005.you could make a decent penny if you were in the top 20 in Slalom Waves & freestyle. The marketing back then was huge.nobody buys full race sails or boards anymore. Formula almost does not exist anymore. Wing wings & foiling has taken over. Will history repeat itself in this sport.hopeso!

Killed fin sailing? I suppose that depends where you sail.
There are people still on slalom kit here. I didnt see any wingers or foilers out yesterday in Poole Harbour (middle & west end), around 22-23 knots wind average. I think all but 1 of the slalom board users has foil kit for lighter winds, at various stages of the learning curve..
I suspect once they all get up to speed on the foil kit then the large kit, 85cm boards, wont be replaced and foil specific sails bought.
When will the large slalom fin boards be dropped from the range? I suspect they will become order only, rather than importers stocking them. Some kit is like that already.

I used to do 20% of my sailing on 125l/80cm board & 8.5m sail, but have just used that combo 3 times this year, when the tide was to low to foil. That board is old (2004), so wont be replacing it, but as it isnt being used much wont wear out.
My medium board, 110l/67cm freerace, which I've had for 7 years, felt tiny with 7.5m sail after foiling a massive board. So I bought myself a new AV Nuvolari 119 freerace. Its a great board. I think if its windy enough for that & 7.5m nicely powered up I will be using that over the foil.

But if the brands arent selling so many fin race/freerace/freeride fin boards, will they pay sailors to race? If racers cant make money from PWA racing, then they will choose races they can afford. Thomas Goyard for example, entered IQ Foil next week but not PWA Sylt.

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stehsegler said..
Diversification. In the 90s you had windsurfing and surfing. Surfing wasn't nearly as big as it is now. Then came kiteboarding, SUPing, Wing Dinging. There seem to be just as many people active as there were in the 90s it's just that the interests have spread across several sports.

At the shallow 'beginners' part of Poole Harbour, eastern side, the roadside parking on the 1 mile stretch of road around the harbour used to be full of windsurfer's cars in the 90s on a windy weekend. It isnt now, but there are definitely more SUPs on no wind days, not sure if its the same people, I suspect there are many who just SUP.
On a southerly wind on the sea, there is only 1 place to sail, its its always busy as everyone goes there. So diversification as you say.

There are some diehards that will never their soul

About as much chance of seeing Slowboat on a foil as there is of Formulanova on the General Discussion admitting we have been lied to.

Effectively zero chance and even less of seeing him on a wing ding

With windsurfing i get the feeling equipment and tuning especially for slalom kit are much more important than foiling and especially wing dinging.

A good day with a 100 litre slalom or free race board with 20 to 25 knots of wind is always going to beat all forms of the sport.

Much easier access to top end speed especially for the average sailor and also you have a much greater connection to the water.

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choco said..
Bring the racing back to the spectators, bring back beachstarts

Yep, but the only thing I'd add was that actual surf slalom was the most amazing racing ever for the competitors as well; speed, wave handling, fascinating starting techniques, and it was much less of a gear race because the legs were so short that the emphasis was on gybes.

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gavnwend said..
^^^
Foiling is huge now, it killed fin sailing.the PWA Comp was good in the 90s to say 2005.you could make a decent penny if you were in the top 20 in Slalom Waves & freestyle. The marketing back then was huge.nobody buys full race sails or boards anymore. Formula almost does not exist anymore. Wing wings & foiling has taken over. Will history repeat itself in this sport.hopeso!

I agree with philUK, it probably depends on where you sail, fin sailing is still going strong where I sail. In the west side of the San Francisco Bay Area it is windfoiling that has basically disappeared. It peaked in 2018/19 and by the time the pandemic was, sort of, over it was gone. I know of 4 people who still windfoil. It got to the point that I cannot sell my windfoiling equipment because there is zero demand.

Kite foiling is also non-existent, and kiting almost gone in at least two locations, and down a huge chunk in two others. What is left? Windsurfing, mostly freeride, freestyle, B&J and very little slalom, that was never that popular, and lots and lots of Winging that attracted windsurfers, kiters and a whole new group of surfers.

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duzzi said..
I agree with philUK, it probably depends on where you sail.

It would be interesting to hear reports from different places.

On Cape Cod, kiters still seem to outnumber everyone else combined. Windsurfing is on the downward trend, with noticeably fewer windsurfers than the last few years. For most, windfoiling is a temporary step before they switch to winging. Most windfoilers switch to fins when the wind gets strong; for winging, that applies to a smaller fraction. On average, windsurfers are probably a few decades older than kiters, with wingers covering all age ranges.

In Cabarete in June, kiters outnumbered wingers and windsurfers maybe 10:1. Partly, the numbers may reflect that flying with kite gear is easiest and cheapest. Windfoilers were a rare sight, with just 1 or 2 regular locals and maybe a couple of tourists. There was a lot of interest in learning to wing, with at least one lesson most days at Vela (in preseason). Windsurfing lessons were very rare.

The relatively largest group of windfoiler was probably at Bird Island in Corpus Christi in late winter/early spring, but it was outnumbered by wingers. Many of the wingers were former windsurfers who had switched to kiting and then to winging. The picture may be a bit distorted since kiting is not allowed at Bird Island. Interestingly, there seemed to be more windsurf beginners than in previous years. Kiting at Grassy Point was still quite popular, with no obvious trend compared up or down to previous years.

What are the trends in other regions in Oz, the US, and elsewhere?

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boardsurfr said..

What are the trends in other regions in Oz, the US, and elsewhere?

I think it depends on location. Here in Lake Macquaire windfoiling has almost completely replaced windsurfing. 95% of the regulars now windfoil unless it gets really windy. One or two of them have then moved to winging. There are some still on kites, but the majority of them have switched to winging. The biggest growth by far is winging. Everyone is doing it, young, old, male, female. They easily out number all other disciplines. Many of my sessions are purely with wingers. As a result my tracks are starting to look like wingers tracks, I enjoy foiling in all conditions, never changing to the fin except to speed sail flat water weed.
It's probably just a matter of time.

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boardsurfr said..What are the trends in other regions in Oz, the US, and elsewhere?

WA Cottesloe beach average summer 20 knot seabreeze, windswells but no waves.
If there are 50 out I would expect the breakdown to be;
Wingers 20
Twintip/surfboard kites 15
Windfoil 8
Kite foil 4
Windsurfers B&J 3

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azymuth said..

b

WA Cottesloe beach average summer 20 knot seabreeze, windswells but no waves.
If there are 50 out I would expect the breakdown to be;
Wingers 20
Twintip/surfboard kites 15
Windfoil 8
Kite foil 4
Windsurfers B&J 3

I think this primarily in conditions below 20knts and on weekends. On weekends most sailors tend to chase a wave on the Northern Beaches or up at Lano. Last decent swell at Dutchies two weeks ago I counted 20 sails on the water and only 2 wingers and 2 kiters... but that was on a Monday. With a good Seabreeze I have seen 20+ at Metthams and another 10 or so at Scarborough on the way home... I suspect the numbers are significantly higher as most people seem to stay for a couple of hours and then leave.

There are too many f ing wingers at Lucky Bay hopefully all shot up and double boosted so we should see their numbers decline significantly in the coming years so us pureblood windsurfers do not need to ride an obstacle course on the way out to the sand bar .

Or you could just harden up and sail on the ocean.

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azymuth said..
WA Cottesloe beach average summer 20 knot seabreeze, windswells but no waves.
If there are 50 out I would expect the breakdown to be;
Wingers 20
Twintip/surfboard kites 15
Windfoil 8
Kite foil 4
Windsurfers B&J 3

Interesting. Sounds like the numbers might be skewed by the conditions, though. Swell instead of breaking waves are lots of fun for wingers, but less fun than breaking waves for wave sailors, so they seem to go elsewhere. What's the breakdown at places like Coronation?

It sounds there are lots of wingers on Swan River now - more than windsurfers? Is kiting allowed on Swan River? Is winging there more attractive than windsurfing because wings are so easy in gusty conditions (and not everyone has Slowboat's skills on a windsurfer)?

Wingers have taken over at Lucky Bay.

70 percent wingers,20 percent windsurfers and 10 percent foilers.

At Peli Point there are more foilers than anyone for sure unless its windy.

Numbers change a lot when there is strong wind. The foilers all but disappear leaving it 50-50 with the windsurfers and wing dingers.

I really do want to see Slowboat pump the wingding on to the plane in light wind before i kick the bucket.

^^^^
You can add one more poley to the river Pete, l be making my pilgrimage across to W.A in two weeks.l probably sail the other side Applecross .one good thing not many teabaggers, they more dangerous. No offence to the good ones.l haven't sailed the river for twenty years.all the crew you will see me soon.lookout for GavNwend stickers on my Pryde sails.lol and a huge wake behind my board.lol need the speed.lol

Back to the subject of PWA...I have a very controversial suggestion.....

PWA drops foiling and reverts to fin.
Windfoil racing and freestyle join the GWA (which would be renamed) and that competition is WinGfoil and WinDfoil.

Could work?????

I race both foil and slalom (fin), and i enjoy them both for different things. Different conditions suit different set ups and that means i can sail almost all year round.

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mr love said..
PWA drops foiling and reverts to fin.
Windfoil racing and freestyle join the GWA (which would be renamed) and that competition is WinGfoil and WinDfoil.

Could work?????

I doubt it would. People would have to choose one over the other. You can't do a full PWA tour and fit in a separate Windfoil race tour. You'll end up people cherry picking events and that's not good for either tour.

If PWA racing continues as is it will be a windfoil event..the choice will be made for the racers, if you want to win then you need to be on a foil. So unless they change the racing format this is inevitable. So the choice is change the format of racing so some of the events are fin only, or for the PWA to accept that racing is a foil event.
If WinD and WinG Foil racing was under the one umbrella then the brands ( of which many do products for both ) can focus their racing budgets on to one series rather than splitting and Windfoil racing struggling for sponsorship.
Just a thought bubble.

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mr love said..
Back to the subject of PWA...I have a very controversial suggestion.....

PWA drops foiling and reverts to fin.
Windfoil racing and freestyle join the GWA (which would be renamed) and that competition is WinGfoil and WinDfoil.

Could work?????

Could work, but won't.
A more realistic - but probably still unlikely - way to save the fin and keep the foil would be to restrict the PWA foil gear registration rules to one (front) wing. That way you ensure that racers will register their most effective low wind setup for racing in marginal winds, and switch to the fin when it gets windy enough for everyone to switch to the medium slalom fin board. In keeping, in other words, with the original idea of the foil replacing the 9.0/big board racing in marginal winds that too often had to be cancelled (or couldn't be started) for lack of wind. And it would keep the fin alive in those conditions in which most people prefer fin action (to watch, or to sail in), and for which most spots are better suited.

While realistic, it is probably still unlikely to get traction amongst the PWA brands, who have now poured too many resources into high(er) wind foil development.
Another alternative would be for the tour to consist of fin or foil only events, for instance fin only in Fuerte, foil only in Costa Brava. Problem with that is that it can be light/strong wind on those spots too (remember the first foil only event in Costa Brava a few years ago. gusting 40kn!) and it fractures the ever thinning tour even more.

5.5m wingding covers me from 8 - 15knots, 4.7m windsurf covers me from 17 - high 20's

not sure what to do from 15 -17?