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Manuel7 said..
Thanks for the details Maxi! I was looking for a picture such as the second one you posted. Awesome.

We can see how hiked forward he is. If control wasn't an issue, he would also pull his rear foot out to get a touch more forward and in a more natural position. It can be harsh on knees when they are set inwards while dropping off a piece of chop for example.

Anyways this is the ugly upwind stance I was talking about earlier.

Thanks haha!!

In regards to the hiking forward. He is only doing that to keep the board on the plane. No matter what the wind speed in the main goal is to get the front foot perfectly straight and have a 70/30 ratio with 70 being the back foot. Having the front foot bent might give you more height but having the front foot straight will be more efficient and faster

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LeeD said..

I guess we should define what IS the "modern stance".

There isn't 'the' modern stance. There are many stances, as you mentioned that earlier.
Perfect-7 isn't modern, take a look at the top PWA slalom guys when maxed out as showed in that 'extending arms' thread.
Basher likes to call it the 'modern' stance, but lets drop the modern. Perfect-7 is more accurate.
Wave boards, straps forward/mast back. Slalom/blasting straps back/mast forward (129-133cm or thereabouts depending on various factors).

This is an example of "perfert 7 stance". Shoulders, hips and feet are perfertly in line. But this works only only flat water and steady wind or going upwind only. Of course old school, from a 1999 photo (not me) Short lines and narrow footstrap spread as compared to front straps to mast foot

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SongofWind said..
This is an example of "perfert 7 stance". Shoulders, hips and feet are perfertly in line. But this works only only flat water and steady wind or going upwind only. Of course old school, from a 1999 photo (not me) Short lines and narrow footstrap spread as compared to front straps to mast foot

Quite a sail! I wonder how they justified that leech.

But what is he doing with his feet?
The photograph also shows the rig mast rake - just imagine how raked-back it would look if we levelled the horizon in this photo.

Just to clear up the old school stance versus modern stance question:
There are indeed many stances for different types of kit we now sail. The 'perfect 7' stance is a good visual key to what we should be aiming for but that is directed at intermediates learning to plane their boards better. When turning you should have your knees more bent, and if blasting downwind you'd certainly have your back leg more bent etc.

The signs that people are still stuck in old school stance are more basic. 1) Too much mast rake 2) Lines too short 3) Feet too close together and miles from the mast foot. This stance can still work for blasting but gets dissed now because it 'traps' you under the rig, making it hard for you to gybe the board or to respond to other board trim needs - so you become the passenger, not the driver.
It's the excessive mast rake that effectively drops the boom which in turn makes you believe you need short harness lines.

With a modern stance we use the rig more upright, and longer harness lines plus a waist harness allow you to shift your weight more readily to adjust board trim and/or to move the rig forwards or back. Those principles apply to all types of windsurfing.

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Basher said..

SongofWind said..
This is an example of "perfert 7 stance". Shoulders, hips and feet are perfertly in line. But this works only only flat water and steady wind or going upwind only. Of course old school, from a 1999 photo (not me) Short lines and narrow footstrap spread as compared to front straps to mast foot

But what is he doing with his feet?
The photograph also shows the rig mast rake - just imagine how raked-back it would look if we levelled the horizon in this photo.

I'd say the board is long, low rockered apart from the turned up nose, and has a long planing flat. So on flat water he has brought his front foot back to get the board riding on a smaller area.

I think I mentioned earlier Jim Crossley's hobby of sailing classic kit. It might be of interest to some.
He mentions the mastfoot is a long way forward on the Sputnik 270.

What do you make of the sail rake on modern kit, 1st article with the orange Loft sail at Sotovento I guess.

www.windsurfingukmag.co.uk/all-round-classic-jim-crossley-pro-windsurfer-profile/

boards.co.uk/equipment-tests/tested-equipment/scrapheap-speed-challenge-can-the-old-beat-the-new.html

Sail rake is needed on go fast kit.
Modern slalom sailors still rake the sail, and sometimes open up a bit when really powered up. Also use wide stance and mast track very forward.
Freestyle stance is wide, mast track back similar to wave stance.
They go slow and use smaller sails.
Do you prefer slow or fast?
RELAXED 7 is a good stance.

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LeeD said..
PhilUK....
Possibly you are studying all different stances now,and maybe DID NOT in the past.
Did you know people are different?
Some long arms.
Some short arms
That kind, anatomical. Stands to reason they rig differently.
None of it matters, as long as you can sail fast, comfortable, and for a long time.
Don't pretend to be the professor of sailing stance. Useless endeavor and an exercise in theory.

This is the conundrum I faced when I started out just over five years ago. Most of the sailors in my area used older techniques (noticeable by the width of their harness lines and how short they were. Nevertheless, these people could sail reasonably quick. Unfortunately , as a learner, I could not rely upon these guys for coaching nor access any regular feedback. For this my best option was with DVD's (Beginner to Winner with Jem Hall) and magazine articles and books on technique (thank you Guy Cribb and others). As I progressed I found that the type of board being used also affected set-ups and on water technique. Most in my area at that time were on some form of slalom or speed board, aiming for extra knots. My aim was to have fun, carve, and do successful and safe gybes/tacks. As such, I only used a three footstrap set-up. I also used smaller sails. I stuck with the methods and techniques taught by modern coaches and possibly adapted these somewhat to my own situation. I persisted with longer lines (helping me to keep my front arm straighter) but my boom height tends to be lower nowadays. Raking the rig back only slows me down, so I try to be more upright even though at times this gives the me the impression that I am about to catapult. I still don't go anywhere as fast as the experienced guys but I have my moments! Back foot pressure can be overdone at times, washing off speed and causing spin-out and poor gybing technique.

I am glad that I used the modern concepts of sailing as my guide. If nothing else it makes me feel like I am part of the younger set rather than a wizened and experienced dinosaur. I fully respect those who still use techniques from the 70's, 80's and 90's but I jut want to make the point that it appears as though there is more than one way to skin a cat (or in this case, learn how to windsurf).

Go fast needs one technique.
Learning to windsurf a different one.
Freestyle and waves another one.
Now foiling adds 2 more.
Winging?

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LeeD said..
Go fast needs one technique.
Learning to windsurf a different one.
Freestyle and waves another one.
Now foiling adds 2 more.
Winging?

Do you think that there are some non negotiable basics that cover all? It is hard to unlearn bad habits (just look at my golf swing).

Fast and tricky?
Compromise. Grey instead of black or white.
Doesn't work for my 38 year old idea of..go fast, turn well, jump high.
I started windsurfing at age 35, so my goals were very low.

I was looking at the desirable stand for slalom sailing that is proposed, I agree all the way but.... The stand proposed is good as long as you are not way overpowered and the water is not super choppy. You will than need to adopt a poo stand and use longer harness line..move mast fwd a notch etc...and from the beach it doesn't look as pretty but it's the way that you will help bitting the bullet. That poo stand come up fairly late...means need to be soooo muuuchhhh over power compare to a novice...but that poo stand will make you bit the bullet...and when it happens you cannot correct the guy...you can just suggest to change sail.

Stand are wider on wave and freestyle, boom are usually higher on freestyle to be more centered on the board, I'm a pretty low level freestyler(spock grubby etc) but higher boom really helping me for sure. But what I understood over the years, windsurfer are like surveys. what works for 98% of the sailors 19/20......there that 2% 1 out of 20 that is a outlier and he is not bull****ting, he can't sail with long line, he can't sail with boom set at chest...or chin...and that's the way it is.

For slalom...I prefer my boom low compare to most slalom sailor...I guess I could work on this to release faster...but I'm not confortable in the high end zone with higher boom...

Modern stance transfers across disciplines much better, especially foiling.

Yes, freestyles adapt easily to foil due to tiny fins they are used to.
Slalom still appears 22" spread of stance, rear strap starting around 8" from tail, and mast track around 23" from center of front straps.
Similar for high jumps in bump sailing, but track pulled back 1-2". That's for high jumps in flat water.

Australia stopped using the imperial measurement system in the 70's.
I don't understand why Americans still insist on using the cave man measurement system.

We WILL catch up eventually.
Look who we have for President. That shows we're still a century behind.

^ Are you 73 LeeD? Good on ya. Stay healthy.

The modern stance will involve a lot of squatting with the amount of toilet paper sold

A way to picture a good stance is a position that a human body must have to travel across the water in a straight horizontal line and with a near still center of gravity.

Then, arms and legs can freely sometimes frantically wiggle up and down with chop, swell and current.

Torso moves in and out to distribute weight load.

Not sure this helps but the idea is that body adjusts to keep harness lines load as water state and wind fluctuate.

I do firmly believe that most stances work over flat water. When the water state starts building, stance flaws are outlined. Arms fatigue, back aches, legs on fire, are all signs that something is off.

A good stance with slight variations depending on gear and conditions will be universal. Well that's my thought anyway :)

+1. Good stuff.