Popcorn is in the microwave

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Basher said..




That's actually not correct.
Fat fins are really slow and are only really of any benefit to beginners with poor technique.

Honestly , at first , I thought you were making a joke about penis size .

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Basher said..

kato said..


Interestingly Fangy is making something that doesn't exist . A fat, short, wide fin that gets you going in 6-10 kts and capable of 38 kts. They don't let go and they put a big grin on ya face cos they're just so much fun to use. Good luck to Imax in having a go at making a fin, I did and I'm better at buying one.

It would indeed be great if that were actually true. Obviously, it's not the fin that gets you going on a windsurfer, it's the right combination of power, float and rockerline, directed by sailor technique..
Presumably, if it were true that a fin can get you going in 6-10knots AND speed you to 38knots, then we'd see similar gear being raced at top levels. Most good gear or innovation gets copied immediately.

I thoroughly support the idea of anyone making their own fins, or re-shaping old fins to up-cycle them to a new use.

But fat fins are slow and will feel so to anyone with ability to gybe. Intermediates who aren't at that level might find that thicker fins are forgiving for spinout - when better technique is really the answer to spinout issues.

It is true that a raked back fin helps a lot in ditching weed - and may be essential kit for weedy waters. But the performance of any weed fin sucks in normal conditions.


A fin does not have to be fat at the base for better strength. If your fin is breaking in a standard box, then it's usually the laminate at fault.


Thanks for all the comments in response to my casual remark added to this thread earlier. I just feel it's important to tell the truth about stuff on a forum where newbies come to pick up ideas, and to learn.

Seriously Are you calling Kato a Liar??

So by your own reasoning:
"Obviously, it's not the fin that gets you going on a windsurfer, it's the right combination of power, float and rockerline, directed by sailor technique."
The fin is only a small part of the total package so a slightly thicker fin that is harmony with the package will not make much difference??

So what is your definitions of a 'thick fin'? Do you have a figure in mm? or is it a thickness to chord ratio thing? How much extra drag in terms of top speed, or mid range speed does your 'thicker' fin lose? 0.1Kts? 1.0Kts? 2.0kts? On what course of sailing? Upwind? downwind? crosswind? Flat water or choppy? Washing machine chop or rolling swell?

It's just not as simple as "Thick fins are slow".

PWA racing is so far removed from what the average, or even highly skilled amateur does, that what they use in their high specialised, very narrow range of use is often of very limited relevance for the vast range of user conditions out there. What is actually relevant is what wrorks for the individual sailor at their level of experience, in their particular conditions, and what puts the biggest smile on their face. If going as fast as physically possible all the time was the biggest factor in everyones user experience, there would be no market for anything but extreme speed and slalom boards. Freeride gear simply would not be sold. Freestyle and Wave boards would not have even been invented.

Next thing someone will be trying to tell us that G10 fins are slow and only carbon fins can go fast, and that there is no way a board can go fast if it is polyester/polyurethane, not Epoxy/styrene!! LOL!

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Basher said.., I just feel it's important to tell the truth about stuff on a forum where newbies come to pick up ideas, and to learn.

Imagine what newbies, who sail in the aforementioned conditions, could learn if we had the benefit of your design. "We see further when we stand on the shoulders of giants" - c'mon, be the that 'giant', use all that top-level foil experience and help us all improve by posting your design solution.

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Imax1 said..

Basher said..




That's actually not correct.
Fat fins are really slow and are only really of any benefit to beginners with poor technique.

Honestly , at first , I thought you were making a joke about penis size .

I guess that means I must be quick and experienced then.

Basher.....holy er than any of us....

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LeeD said..
Basher.....holy er than any of us....

Yes maybe, but he's talking from his experience, he obviously hasn't used a fangy fin in fangyland conditions.
And I agree with him, stress factors at the base of a fin are signs of layup deficiencies. probably too much resin and not enough cloth.

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Basher said..
It would indeed be great if that were actually true. Obviously, it's not the fin that gets you going on a windsurfer, it's the right combination of power, float and rockerline, directed by sailor technique..
Presumably, if it were true that a fin can get you going in 6-10knots AND speed you to 38knots, then we'd see similar gear being raced at top levels. Most good gear or innovation gets copied immediately.

I thoroughly support the idea of anyone making their own fins, or re-shaping old fins to up-cycle them to a new use.

But fat fins are slow and will feel so to anyone with ability to gybe. Intermediates who aren't at that level might find that thicker fins are forgiving for spinout - when better technique is really the answer to spinout issues.

It is true that a raked back fin helps a lot in ditching weed - and may be essential kit for weedy waters. But the performance of any weed fin sucks in normal conditions.


A fin does not have to be fat at the base for better strength. If your fin is breaking in a standard box, then it's usually the laminate at fault.


Thanks for all the comments in response to my casual remark added to this thread earlier. I just feel it's important to tell the truth about stuff on a forum where newbies come to pick up ideas, and to learn.

The arrogance of that post is astounding.

He made fins that DO do that. There are number of people attesting to that fact, right here.
Just because its not in your hemisphere or (dated?) experience of fins and speed n racing etc doesn't mean its not true.

I note you are not game to suggest a foil that satisfies all fangy's design criteria?

Back on Topic.

Imax which board you going to be using it on?

I use a Fangy , not because of weed , but because it's by far the grippiest shallow water fin I have used with my 9.4m sail. Tried other short fins , no hope in big board , big sail , shallow water . No amount of skill will keep any sailer happy on a 84 wide board with a thin 28 cm fin . Not a 115 kg one with a 9.4 sail in 12 kts.
I prefer using a 55cm pointer but that doesn't work in under 55cm of water , believe me , I've tried

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elmo said..
Back on Topic.

Imax which board you going to be using it on?

On a 140 litre and try it on my big lightwind board and on a medium lightwind board that I'm planning on making . Purely for shallow water . I'm hoping it may be a substitute for a 45 cm ish pointer.
Looks like I'll be trying it today

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Imax1 said..

elmo said..
Back on Topic.

Imax which board you going to be using it on?

On a 140 litre and try it on my big lightwind board and on a medium lightwind board that I'm planning on making . Purely for shallow water . I'm hoping it may be a substitute for a 45 cm ish pointer.
Looks like I'll be trying it today

Nice, hope it blows for you.

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Basher said..
Presumably, if it were true that a fin can get you going in 6-10knots AND speed you to 38knots, then we'd see similar gear being raced at top levels. Most good gear or innovation gets copied

But fat fins are slow and will feel so to anyone with ability to gybe. Intermediates who aren't at that level might find that thicker fins are forgiving for spinout - when better technique is really the answer to spinout


Thanks for all the comments in response to my casual remark added to this thread earlier. I just feel it's important to tell the truth about stuff on a forum where newbies come to pick up ideas, and to learn.

PM sent

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Imax1 said..
I use a Fangy , not because of weed , but because it's by far the grippiest shallow water fin I have used with my 9.4m sail. Tried other short fins , no hope in big board , big sail , shallow water . No amount of skill will keep any sailer happy on a 84 wide board with a thin 28 cm fin . Not a 115 kg one with a 9.4 sail in 12 kts.
I prefer using a 55cm pointer but that doesn't work in under 55cm of water , believe me , I've tried

Is that because you have been eating too much popcorn lately?
Looking forward to hearing how you went today. (and even more so, the next board build)

Just in case Basher thinks Kato is just some flash in the pan that doesn't know what he's talking about. and only imagines 40kts. Here's his GPSTC PBs
Personal Bests for kato

2 Second 5 x 10 1 Hour Alpha Nautical Mile Distance
45.695kts 44.238kts 27.816kts 26.788kts 37.746 knts 583.549km

And this is the overall all time World rankings

Rank Sailor Score
1 Jacques van der Hout 13
2 Hans Kreisel 59
3 Dennis De Pauw 72
4 vince bel-62 75
5 Spotty 169
6 B-rad 180
7 Jacques Kint 183
8 Sailquik 191
9 B52 192
10 Ian Richards 199
11 Ben van der Steen 239
12 kato 255
13 Dave Morehead 256

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decrepit said..
Just in case Basher thinks Kato is just some flash in the pan that doesn't know what he's talking about. and only imagines 40kts. Here's his GPSTC PBs
Personal Bests for kato

2 Second 5 x 10 1 Hour Alpha Nautical Mile Distance
45.695kts 44.238kts 27.816kts 26.788kts 37.746 knts 583.549km

And this is the overall all time World rankings

Rank Sailor Score
1 Jacques van der Hout 13
2 Hans Kreisel 59
3 Dennis De Pauw 72
4 vince bel-62 75
5 Spotty 169
6 B-rad 180
7 Jacques Kint 183
8 Sailquik 191
9 B52 192
10 Ian Richards 199
11 Ben van der Steen 239
12 kato 255
13 Dave Morehead 256

Took it for a spin today , absolutely rapped so far . I give it 3 smiley faces
Very light wind , 8 to 12 kts ish .
My huge light wind board and 9,4m NP , V8
Used it back to back with a 28cm FF
You were right Fangy about the lift , plenty . Not as much as a 55cm pointer but more than the FF28 . About half way .
It didn't have as much grip as the FF , ( which I can be as ham footed as I like ), but still plenty for the big sail. When I pushed to try and make it let go it just drifted slightly , never letting go . Great for a spaz like me .
It fires upwind , no problem .
For shallow , light wind it would be my choice .
Its more than enough fin for a huge board and sail so it could be too much for the smaller boards I built it for ??
How it will go in stronger wind and smaller boards and sails , watch this space .
Only got to 20 kts in the light wind . No where near being powered up .
If it gets too much , I might need to make a smaller version .
Gimme a solid 18 kts of wind

^^^ don't be silly, every magazine test ever rated all boards as bloody brilliant.
The most you could hope for was to look at say 6 waveboards in the test and look for the turniest of the lot or the earliest planing of the lot relative to all the others...... But they were all 9/10


(EDIT:
this was in response to something somebody later deleted. Need to quote lol)

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Imax1 said..
Took it for a spin today , absolutely rapped so far . I give it 3 smiley faces
Very light wind , 8 to 12 kts ish .
My huge light wind board and 9,4m NP , V8
Used it back to back with a 28cm FF
You were right Fangy about the lift , plenty . Not as much as a 55cm pointer but more than the FF28 . About half way .
It didn't have as much grip as the FF , ( which I can be as ham footed as I like ), but still plenty for the big sail. When I pushed to try and make it let go it just drifted slightly , never letting go . Great for a spaz like me .
It fires upwind , no problem .
For shallow , light wind it would be my choice .
Its more than enough fin for a huge board and sail so it could be too much for the smaller boards I built it for ??
How it will go in stronger wind and smaller boards and sails , watch this space .
Only got to 20 kts in the light wind . No where near being powered up .
If it gets too much , I might need to make a smaller version .
Gimme a solid 18 kts of wind

Stoked to hear you had a good day, despite being a beginner with poor technique. And glad it didn't snap because it was too thin.
It's wonderful to see once again how more efficient lesser raked foils are in producing lift. It will be interesting to see what the top end is like and what happens as you approach it (one of mine seems to get all indecisive at 34 kn) or just runs into a drag wall or plain old tailwalking. I am watching this space Imax... More testing and more experiments please!

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Basher said..
This is a typical road crash of a thread, where most of the contributors really don't know what they are talking about.

I think you are the prime example of this.

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Basher said..
But fat fins are slow and will feel so to anyone with ability to gybe.

You are just showing your ignorance, and that you have a serious problem trying to understand what other people are saying. The Fangy fins are about the fattest fins out there, and they are better than just about any other fin that I have tried. Go to Australia and try one, and you'll have to eat your words (assuming you can sail as well as the other average speedsurfers out there).

My understanding of fin design is somewhat limited, as are my windsurfing skills. So I'll take the words of one of the fastest speedsurfers in the world, who also designs some of the best fins available:

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Chris Lockwood said..
It is a myth that thickness means slow. (Actual results conclusively prove this myth is indeed false).

Taken from www.tribalwindsurfing.com/en/blog/tech-talk/g10-versus-carbon

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Basher said..
It would indeed be great if that were actually true.

You are confusing "hard to believe because I don't have any personal experience and limited understanding" with "not true". Don't go around accusing others of lying.

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Basher said..
Presumably, if it were true that a fin can get you going in 6-10knots AND speed you to 38knots, then we'd see similar gear being raced at top levels.

And why, please tell, would it be relevant in racing if a fin works in 6-10 knots, but can get pushed to 38 knots in stronger winds? Slalom sailors would used 80+ cm wide boards and 8.5+ m sails at the low end, and their smallest boards and sails in 38-knot conditions. Racers would pick fin that gives an extra half knot of top end in each condition, not one fin that can be used in both, but may be a little bit slower.

I had the pleasure to use a 22 cm Fangy fin for most of my windsurfing in Australia. Even with my limited skills, I was able to get going in about 12 knots on it, and use the same fin in more than twice as much wind to get 34+ knots. It jibed beautifully, too, letting me set a couple of alpha PBs. Plenty of other Fangy fin users will have similar stories.

As to why the Fangy fin has not been copied much, that's easy: it's made of aluminum. The flange at the bottom is one of the design aspects that makes it work so well, and that's hard to impossible to do in GFC or carbon. The Tectonic Weed Demon has copied one aspect of the design (the extended tip), and it's a very good fin, but it is nowhere close to the Fangy fin in performance. For me, the Fangy 22 was pretty much spinout proof in chop; with the Tectonics 21 and 23, I need to be much more careful even on flat water to avoid spinouts. The only problem I ever had with Fangy fins was that I did not bring them with me when leaving Oz .

A senior windsurf instructor and gear head who I otherwise admire once stated that "spinouts are always a skill issue, not a fin issue". That is true, if you've got the time and talent to develop your skills to a (near-)professional level. For anyone else, it's completely useless, and even counter-productive. A better fin really helps to develop skills and windsurf better. There is a reason why even PWA slalom surfers routinely check dozens of different fins to get the best fin for the condition. For those who don't have that kind of money to spend, and who sometimes have to sail in weeds or shallow spots, a couple of fat Fangy fins is a wonderful alternative.

Some fins spin out with any sailor.
That is an absolute truth.

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Imax1 said..
My idea is a cross between a much loved Fangy and a more upright fin .
30 cm high and 17mm at its thickest 5cm up.
Starting with 10mm G10 plate and bogging up to desired thickness .
Covered with 2 layers 4oz glass .
No weed where I sail but it does get shallow .

Boy this thread is getting heated, I would just like to know how the hell you make your own fin, do you start off with a solid block and CNC it or do you make a mould, and how do you get the tuttle head just right, it seems that they are pretty tight tolerance I often have to sand and/ or skim them with resin to make them fit just right, that's about the limit of my skills.

Lay up 42 layers of 6oz cloth and epoxy resin.
Cut outline.
Sand profile.
Drill out slug holes and install brass slugs.
Go sailing.

Oh f#!k it I may as well throw my 2 cents worth in. Why don't ALL fins have a flange at the base like Imax's and fangy's ? ANY fin would perform better with this. A flange at right angles creates a smooth laminar flow at the junction reducing aerodynamic/hydrodynamic vortices which in turn creates LESS drag. Even the cessna 150 trainer, one of the most basic, low performance of aeroplanes has screw on plastic flanges at the wing/fuselage junction for this. And the reason bush planes have super thick wings is so they can fly at low speeds without stalling or, spinout as we refer to it in windsurfing terms. There is no denying this, its an aerodynamic/hydrodynamic fact. The OP originally stated that he wanted a shallow water fin to use with big sails and boards, not a speed fin. The thicker the better, no stalling. thick wings may not be as fast as thin wings but they can take off at lower speeds without stalling. Simples!

mob dog .
I started with a sheet of 10 mm G10. Beefed , ( glassed ) , up the area for the powerbox, ( more complex than a Tuttle ). On a manual milling machine mill the powerbox shape . Install brass nut and fit to board . Cut out fin profile . With glass infused resin bog up flange area so it's nice and strong . Bog up fin thickness with q,cell resin . All by eye , and measuring thicknesses as you go , hit it with coarse flapper wheel on grinder , them orbital sander then by hand . After reshaping many fins you kind of get an eye for it . Wrap in a couple layers of thin glass. One layer of 16 oz glass on bottom of flange . Bog , sand . Clear layer of resin , sand . Another clear layer of resin and wet and dry to 800 grit .
And to your second question , I personally think all fins would benefit from some sort of a flange . I can't see any negatives except cost . Someone will know why they don't do it .

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Imax1 said..
mob dog .
I started with a sheet of 10 mm G10. Beefed , ( glassed ) , up the area for the powerbox, ( more complex than a Tuttle ). On a manual milling machine mill the powerbox shape . Install brass nut and fit to board . Cut out fin profile . With glass infused resin bog up flange area so it's nice and strong . Bog up fin thickness with q,cell resin . All by eye , and measuring thicknesses as you go , hit it with coarse flapper wheel on grinder , them orbital sander then by hand . After reshaping many fins you kind of get an eye for it . Wrap in a couple layers of thin glass. One layer of 16 oz glass on bottom of flange . Bog , sand . Clear layer of resin , sand . Another clear layer of resin and wet and dry to 800 grit .

Ok cool so its a real hand crafted kind of thing. Excuse my ignorance but what is G10 exactly?.

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mob dog said..

Imax1 said..
mob dog .
I started with a sheet of 10 mm G10. Beefed , ( glassed ) , up the area for the powerbox, ( more complex than a Tuttle ). On a manual milling machine mill the powerbox shape . Install brass nut and fit to board . Cut out fin profile . With glass infused resin bog up flange area so it's nice and strong . Bog up fin thickness with q,cell resin . All by eye , and measuring thicknesses as you go , hit it with coarse flapper wheel on grinder , them orbital sander then by hand . After reshaping many fins you kind of get an eye for it . Wrap in a couple layers of thin glass. One layer of 16 oz glass on bottom of flange . Bog , sand . Clear layer of resin , sand . Another clear layer of resin and wet and dry to 800 grit .

Ok cool so its a real hand crafted kind of thing. Excuse my ignorance but what is G10 exactly?.

It's many layers of wetted out fibreglass squashed together . It's what all those light green fins are made of . They are CNC machined and then glued into a moulded Tuttle box . It's expensive stuff and some are not glued in too deep . This is where fins fail , to save a couple $ and they rip out when hitting something .. In good quality fins the fin goes down past the brass nuts .

Also I'll throw this in, The difference between thick and thin, I think sailquick is a pilot so he can back me up on this.


The air/water travelling over the surface of the thick wing has to speed up more than the thin wing due to having to travel a longer distance in the same time hence creating a lower pressure in the surrounding air/water which in turn sucks the air/water on to the surface of the wing making it less likely to stall or create disturbed air/water flow around the wing (SPINOUT).

The way I see it is thick foils make more drag and grip , so you can use a smaller foil which is less draggy . Got to be a balance there somewhere .

I've followed the Fangy threads for a long time with interest as one of my favorite sailing vacation spots is notoriously shallow.

Following in the theme of this thread, would it be worth trying to reshape and fatten an existing weedie with what we've learned from the Fangy project? I live too far to get one plus always up for a time consuming project and totally lack Imax1's skills and available tools. I'd love to get rid of the 48cm G-10 boat anchor that's my current big board weedie.