So ive been Blacking out since June this year. Consequently no licence, no job. Blacked out 61 times now. I can feel it coming n can be ready.(eg no falling over)Mostly in early hours of morning, 3-6am. Done 2 stints in hospital attempting to diagnose. No pacemaker. Apparently my Vagus nerve is over stimulated n stops my heart for upto 7 seconds. Then I reboot, sweat profusely n regain consciousness. Pretty much been bed bound n only walk around the house past 5months. Woohoo it's been a fun ride!
My question is. MY FITNESS LEVELS HAVE DECREASED MASSIVELY. Like Fn MASSIVELY. Probably 30% of my former. Walking up stairs now leaves me knackered. Tried sailing a few weeks ago n ended up swimming 40min. Didn't have the strength to uphaul or waterstart...
Is this normal physical deterioration from laying around for past 5months??
Anyone experienced any similar physical conditions??
Darkman.
Ps I've stacked on 12kg n now rockin 117kg. Been here before, but NEVER felt so piss weak.
Any ideas for my recovery?

Man feel for you, what ****ty position to be in. Might not help, but this is what I did recently. Just as we went into lockdown here in Sydney I topped 108kg was feeling heavy and lethargic etc. I made a decision to stop drinking for 2 weeks, got to 2 weeks went for another 2 weeks and kept going for about 10 weeks. I would walk over 1 hour a day every day at then started to noticed the weight just started dropping, this gave me the confidence to start running as well. Result - I hit 95kg I'm now bouncing around 98kg. But to be honest I reckon the biggest impact was getting off the beers and wine (cheated went to the Non Alcohol beers), I also became more conscious of what I was eating, by slowing down telling myself what would a healthy person eat. Mindset crap, but it worked! Result now is that I can be on the water for well over an hour per session and not feel rooted, before I would only go 20-30mins.
Oh I also had a good chat with my DR who is very much about proactive health and not reactive especially around diet etc. The biggest move in the right direction is making the first move, then you will be enjoying the new level of fitness over time.
Keep us updated on progress.
p.s avoid Dr google as well.

Olskool, I'm not a doctor but found this on Doctor Google. You have probably read it, but I've attached the link in case you haven't.

www.healthline.com/health/vasovagal-syncope

Having a GP and Specialist you have confidence in would be a great place to start. If you don't have these in place, spend time trying to find them.

Thanks guys. I have Specialists. But hey the Vasovagal system isn't really understood by doctors yet. It seems it's a very primative part of human anatomy. Trying Holistic n Western methods to get 'My Olself back', without too much rhythm or rhyme as to what is really the issue. Had LONGTERM EEG, ECG, etc. Many tests. Next stop Gastro specialists. I don't normally drink alcohol, eat a FODMAP pretty strict diet.
Generally a healthy guy.
@john340, Drs aren't what they used to be. They seem to rely a lot on your OWN diagnosis......

Do you drink coffee, or any other caffeine containing products?, if you do I would eliminate caffeine and see.

I've had something similar for 40 years. My heart just stops for a few seconds but never long enough for me to black out. One thing I did notice was that red wine really exacerbated the problem, especially shiraz. I think it was the sulphites. Could it be something like that?

I'm approaching 77 and fitness is a real issue. I had back and hip issues earlier this year, consequential less exercise than usual. So I lost a lot of fitness, it's coming back but slowly. You just need the optimum exercise regime to regain fitness. To much and too little aren't good. A good sports physio may be able to help.
I'm doing intermittent high intensity, as it takes less time, than constant medium intensity. But you need to be careful just how intense. I got a heart rate monitor, so I know just where I'm at.

The biggest problem I found was getting fitness info for older people, all the advice seems to stop after 60.
Although that was while ago, I just found this.
www.goodnewsnetwork.org/best-exercise-seniors-high-intensity-training/

A twice-a-week routine of high-intensity interval training shows a marked effect on fitness and overall wellbeing in people over 70, according to a new study. Regular cardio sessions centered around short bursts of intense workouts, broken up by brief rest periods, can help us stay healthier for longer, according to researchers at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology. When the 5 year study began in 2012, researchers called it Generation 100, and randomly divided healthy participants into three different training groups.One group was assigned to high-intensity interval training (HIIT) using the 4X4 method twice a week-doing 4 minutes of 85-95% maximum heart rate aerobic exercise and 4 minutes of 60% maximum heart rate for 4 rounds. Group two was instructed to train at a steady, moderate intensity for 50 minutes. The participants could choose whether they wanted to train on their own or participate in group training with instructors.

(RELATED: Training for Your First Marathon 'Reverses' Aging of Major Blood Vessels on Par With Medication )

The third group, the control group, was advised to exercise according to the Norwegian health authorities' recommendations. This group was not offered organized training under the auspices of Generation 100, but was called in for regular health checks and fitness assessments. "First of all, I have to say that exercise in general seems to be good for the health of the elderly. And our study results show that on top of that, training regularly at high intensity has an extra positive effect," says Dorthe Stensvold, a professor in the university's Cardiac Exercise Research Group. "Both physical and mental quality of life were better in the high-intensity group after five years than in the other two groups. High-intensity interval training also had the greatest positive effect on fitness," according to Stensvold.

Now I just have to work out what 85-90% HR is
This looks like a reasonable site
www.dollartimes.com/calculate/max-heart-rate/77
Say I should aim for 120 to 130, which is about what I have been doing, depending how energetic I feel.

Thanks Mike. Im a ripe Ol 51yo. (Max HR 160-180) But I have led a kinda wild younger life. HEHE...
These days No coffee No tea, very little alcohol. Im on a pretty strict diet. GF n have been for many years. FODMAP is no complex natural sugars. Rules out a lot of 'normal' fruit n veg.
Check it out it's so much fun!
Anyway it's do able. Monash University has a great app.Just gotta adjust eating style. Like bye bye Italian hello Asian style. No biggy..
It's the MASSIVE drop in fitness that really concerns me. I still have strength, but zero endurance. Incredible how its gone so quickly. 15 stairs n I'm huffing n puffing pretty hard.
Is this just a fitness thing?
Or is there something else causing this?
If it is just fitness, i'll get it sorted. But I've got a long road to get back to windsurf match fitness.
Guess I'm back on the Ol SPEED F1 Raceboard for awhile.
Cheers Darkman.

yep, I suspect it's mainly lack of exercise and you can get it back. But there could be other stuff involved, if exercise is making no difference you need to investigate further.

Just found this.
Endurance Fitness defined Endurance fitness is the ability to sustain a physical activity for a lengthened period of time. For example, it's being able to stay on the treadmill or elliptical for an hour versus just five or ten minutes. It's having the energy and stamina to stay in the game instead of huffing and puffing on the sidelines. Think of long distance runners or professional sports players. They have to push their bodies for extensive periods of time. Therefore, they must keep a high endurance fitness level as opposed to someone that runs a 100 meter dash or doesn't play sports at all. Benefits of Endurance Fitness There are many advantages of having a high endurance fitness level. You have a lower resting heart rate because your heart works more effectively and your muscles are more efficient and stronger for longer periods of time. You also experience less fatigue and you're able to sustain greater demands on your body. How to Improve Your Endurance Fitness There are a few things you can do to achieve a greater level of endurance fitness. You can perform your activity of choice at a slower rate for a longer period of time. Just keep adding a few minutes a week to your current schedule to get your body used to sustaining activity for longer durations. You can also perform interval training. This is where you alternate between hard and light intensities, thereby increasing your body's endurance levels. So, if you work out on a treadmill, for instance, you may want to alternate running and walking for several minutes at a time. Do this for one or two exercise sessions a week and you'll notice that you can sustain longer bouts of exercise with less fatigue.

So I guess it's the way the body works as much as anything.

olskool. Going out on a limp here. Could your condition be sleep posture related ? (ie bad neck, crimped/pressured nerve in neck due to perished or incompatible mattress/pillow ?. This is an issue that creeps up in my experience - like boiled a frog effect)

What are you doing at 3am-6am ?. Are you an early bird that is up and doing stuff ?, or are the blackouts occurring when you're laying in bed ?

^ Funny you mention the crimped/ pressured nerve in neck. 2015 I had boating accident. Got knocked out as chartplotter slammed me in the face crossing a local bar. 8months outta action, learn to walk properly n balance. That why I restarted windsurfing. Improve balance n leave the fish alone for a while while I rebuilt the boat.
Told you it's been fun!
Lately acupuncture to the neck skull area relieves pressure. But doesn't always work for me.
Blackouts 95% have occurred whilst resting/ prone position.
Just gotta tweak that idle screw a touch.

Sleep apnea?

It is nice to blast on a windsurf board. But no one talks about how demanding it is for muscles and for the heart........

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olskool said..
Thanks Mike. Im a ripe Ol 51yo. (Max HR 160-180) But I have led a kinda wild younger life. HEHE...
These days No coffee No tea, very little alcohol. Im on a pretty strict diet. GF n have been for many years. FODMAP is no complex natural sugars. Rules out a lot of 'normal' fruit n veg.
Check it out it's so much fun!
Anyway it's do able. Monash University has a great app.Just gotta adjust eating style. Like bye bye Italian hello Asian style. No biggy..
It's the MASSIVE drop in fitness that really concerns me. I still have strength, but zero endurance. Incredible how its gone so quickly. 15 stairs n I'm huffing n puffing pretty hard.
Is this just a fitness thing?
Or is there something else causing this?
If it is just fitness, i'll get it sorted. But I've got a long road to get back to windsurf match fitness.
Guess I'm back on the Ol SPEED F1 Raceboard for awhile.
Cheers Darkman.

I'm a young 55 and doing interval and core training a few years now. The best thing for getting back your fitness but work into it and follow a program with a health professional.
Yes you can lose the fitness but a bit of work and it will come back. Sometimes you just have to work around the pain/ache of the day to get the fitness back. Good luck

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Faff said..
Sleep apnea?

Tested, nothing to be concerned with.

OK somebody has to be the pessimist.
This sounds like it sucks oldskool but man, its serious. NOT A doctor BUT really, people saying its lack of fitness? No, that weight gain and not doing stairs is a symptom not a cause....... I lost my fitness and became a fat carnt but I didn't black out 61x in 5mths and the docs are unsure why.
Blackouts (in my limited understanding) are oxygen/heart, or brain electrical storm like epilepsy and others.
You don't go from normal (and I'd say you were probably fitter than normal) to 15 stairs feels hard, in 5mths.
You don't pass out when not exercising, and blame fitness (alone) surely??
I have sleep apnoea almost as bad as it gets (die for one minute out of every two and restart = no deep sleep, ever) and its fatiguing but not in that way. My mates with it don't report things like u r. So I agree if your results are neg, and even if you had a bit of OSA its not going to do this stuff.

Cardiologist and neurologist and don't take no for an answer from them

Sorry- harsh post but I'd hate you to blame the disease on a symptom (weight gain/ fitness) and just think eating better and running around will help. It might not, and those who say just fitness (only) are being disingenuous

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olskool said..
^ Funny you mention the crimped/ pressured nerve in neck. 2015 I had boating accident. Got knocked out as chartplotter slammed me in the face crossing a local bar. 8months outta action, learn to walk properly n balance. That why I restarted windsurfing. Improve balance n leave the fish alone for a while while I rebuilt the boat.
Told you it's been fun!
Lately acupuncture to the neck skull area relieves pressure. But doesn't always work for me.
Blackouts 95% have occurred whilst resting/ prone position.
Just gotta tweak that idle screw a touch.

Ok. I've hinted at a possible approach. However, because your condition is serious, I would be consulting with a Chiropractor before (for example) changing bedding/furniture etc.

I'm now probably going to write something you don't want to read: What if it's Windsurfing that's contributing to your condition ? Arched back. Neck turned to extreme deflection. Then add shock through back and neck caused by choppy water etc. I'm not saying stop windsurfing. I'm just saying leave no stone unturned in your investigation.

For example: 32cm lines and high boom for wave gear were making my condition worse. So I lowered my boom and use 28 lines (I did this first as a crap shoot, but then I found it worked). My gear isn't as efficient - I loose some bottom end, but my neck/back is happier. For speed speeding, I just don't do triple digit k's anymore. and I stop and rest after a few runs, as I find the cammed gear a lot more taxing on my back and neck (and listen to what my back and neck is saying. If it hurts, it's time to quit). With wave gear, 2 hour sailing limit if I'm sailing 4-5 days in a row in summer (However, I break this rule in winter when I sail once a month). When I get home, I stretch and go for a 1km walk to readjust my back and neck. If my neck/back aching the next day, I don't sail that day. But normally I can manage it so that I can sail every day it is windy. and of course, my bed and furniture is compatible with me. Before 46, I used to have crappy furniture which fueled my condition.

Hopefully this gives you a new angle. Good luck !

Your neck theory might be on to something, I am a chiropractor and see these symptoms at times when people have had a neck injury. Along with headaches, nausea, blurred vision, etc.. would be worth getting a good local Chiro to check your neck. I also wonder about your pituitary gland? Have you had blood tests for hormone levels and a brain scan to check your pituitary gland?

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Mark _australia said..
..
Cardiologist and neurologist and don't take no for an answer from them.

And, don't be shy about consulting a second or even third. Not the same issue but a serious one, nonetheless, affected me eleven months ago. Was sent to a specialist who was supposed to be really, really good. Technically, he likely is. However, it was a horrible fit and he dismissed the effect of diet which it turns out that a whole lot of recent research in my particular condition indicates is super important. (Please don't take that as a suggestion that diet is related to your situation at all.) He had his approach and was sticking to it despite the latest research in his field.

Went to a second specialist (former director in his field at a teaching hospital) who was much more in synch with both me and the latest research. Completely different experience. Having people close to me in medicine, I can tell you that as much as it is a science, it is an art. Because of genetics, environment and a myriad of other factors, we all respond to both causes and treatments a bit differently. Finding the specialist who is good at teasing out those factors for your specific situation - and importantly, you feel is talking to you as a human being - is key.

We all wish you the best.

Thanks Guys, I'm checking all avenues. Epilepsy been ruled out. Had a 10 day test with 20 transducers superglued to my head.
Hadn't passed out 76 days. Until I stopped taking a tablet to desensitise my stomach at Specialists advice. 4days later I'm blacking out again. Specialist Had said cutting this tablet would have no adverse effect. Well I got straight back on that tablet. Alcohol also a trigger. Had 2 Wild Turkey cans n during the night I'm blacking out again. Havnt blacked out since getting my licence back. Phew, some freedom!
But my Endurance is GONE. I've gained the weight from doing nothing for 5months. Literally told to STOP.
So I did...
Guess I gotta start from the start n work my way back to windsurf fitness.
I really miss that buzz.
Trying to fill that void with as much water related passions as I can. But nothing is like that windsurfing buzz.
YOU KNOW IT!

Few of my other water passions. I design n make Wetland Biological Filtration systems for ponds n waterfeatures. Coz im a Hippy at heart. Gotta connect with nature..

Around 700litres.



Large pot full of Elephants Ear is the filter.

Internal n External I get it sorted. Crystal clear water. Zero chemicals.

Sorry to hear that.
Wish you recovery and back to water soo.
Have you got your jabs?
Any relationship with it?
Anyway, weight would give pressure to heart pretty sure.

Thanks Tom, I dont have covid. Don't have the 'jab' atm either. Im on the fence. I do however have an immune function arguably quite strong as I've rebooted from heart stoppage 61 times. Something there is working right.

What I'm really looking for is anyone's else's experiences with regard to fitness degradation from lack of movement.
Anyway its been a good learn In human physiology. Amazing how the body works.

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olskool said..
Tried sailing a few weeks ago n ended up swimming 40min. Didn't have the strength to uphaul or waterstart...
Is this normal physical deterioration from laying around for past 5months??

I'm not an MD, but I think the deterioration is normal, if you indeed spent most of your time lying around.

A couple of years back, I had a similar 40 minute swim due to lack of fitness. I had just gotten over a bad cold that had lasted much longer than a normal cold, and did not have the strength to swim quickly enough after a crash, when the sail briefly landed on my old-school longboard. I tried for a few seconds, but was totally out of breath, and thought I'd have a heart attack if I kept trying. Fortunately, wind and chop were pushing me towards shore, and once my board arrived at the launch without me (nearly giving my wife a heart attack), the rescue efforts got underway. But that was after only perhaps 6-8 weeks of little physical activity.

I've seen physical deterioration more similar to yours, too. In the most dramatic case, that included a hospitalization of about 6 or 8 weeks, after which re-learning to walk was quite a struggle. But it eventually worked out, despite the person being a couple of decades older than you, and overall in quite poor health. So I think you have a very good chance of getting back to your former shape, but it will require time and work.

Regarding your blackout triggers, it is good that you have started to identify some. A close windsurfing friend of about your age started having blackouts a few years ago that left the medical specialists guessing. In the end, cutting his coffee consumption, which had been extremely high, did the trick. But another friend with a different medical issue ended up identifying multiple triggers that caused her symptoms - some food related, some exercise related, and some others. But it seems she has found most of the triggers now, and remains symptom-free if she avoids them all. Key for her was self-observation; diagnostic tests like CAT scans did not tell the doctors anything useful. Your case may be quite similar in this respect, even though the symptoms are different. So keep watching for possible triggers, avoid the ones you have identified, and start on working to get your fitness back. Good luck!

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olskool said..
What I'm really looking for is anyone's else's experiences with regard to fitness degradation from lack of movement.
Anyway its been a good learn In human physiology. Amazing how the body works.

hi Andrew ,sorry your feeling bad,i was in the same way as you a few years ago,lost my fitness got fatter feel ok ,but the moment i jumped on the board i would only last a few seconds,Eventuialy was diagnosed with sleep apnea .after i was on the cpap machine i had to give up alcohol and change my diet to stop all sugars, basically keto.and then started walking in the morning for 45 minutes ,i lost 25 kilos and can now sail for a fair while ,even if i haven't sailed for a while.I would go back and redo the sleep study's test as you describe where i was some years back .

Did a cardiologist do a full work-up on you while you were in the hospital?

My personal experience is that I had a few blacking out events and my wife persuaded me to see a cardiologist. The cardiologist gave me a holter monitor that I wore at home for 2 weeks. That picked up an electrical problem with my heart. The diagnosis wasn't complete so the cardiologist recommended an implanted loop monitor (www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/implantable-loop-recorder/pyc-20384986). I had that done and monitored for a year. I had a couple of episodes but nothing major until about a year later when I had another major event. The one was a doozy and fully recorded by the loop monitor. Now I have a pacemaker and haven't fainted since the pacemaker was installed almost 5 years ago now.

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olskool said..
Thanks Tom, I dont have covid. Don't have the 'jab' atm either. Im on the fence. I do however have an immune function arguably quite strong as I've rebooted from heart stoppage 61 times. Something there is working right.

I hope you are joking about your understanding of how the immune system works. Clearly its completely different.

I am a bit confused with your diet though. You are on a strict diet but you have still stacked on 12kgs. Is that a lot for your frame? If so, it can't hurt for overall health to try and reduce your weight back to what it was to see if that has an effect.

Have you considered trying a normal/typical diet for a while? Plenty of people running around with 'normal' diets and it would remove one more variable from the equation in trying to figure out what is affecting you.

Did you have an MRI of your head and neck after the boating accident? maybe there is a tear in the the covering of you spinal cord and that is letting cerebral spinal fluid leak out, or a vertebrae is impinging on the nerve that goes to your heart?

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olskool said..
Thanks Mike. Im a ripe Ol 51yo. (Max HR 160-180) But I have led a kinda wild younger life. HEHE...
These days No coffee No tea, very little alcohol. Im on a pretty strict diet. GF n have been for many years. FODMAP is no complex natural sugars. Rules out a lot of 'normal' fruit n veg.
Check it out it's so much fun!
Anyway it's do able. Monash University has a great app.Just gotta adjust eating style. Like bye bye Italian hello Asian style. No biggy..
It's the MASSIVE drop in fitness that really concerns me. I still have strength, but zero endurance. Incredible how its gone so quickly. 15 stairs n I'm huffing n puffing pretty hard.
Is this just a fitness thing?
Or is there something else causing this?
If it is just fitness, i'll get it sorted. But I've got a long road to get back to windsurf match fitness.
Guess I'm back on the Ol SPEED F1 Raceboard for awhile.
Cheers Darkman.

Everytime I get bedbound for some reason the fitness drops right off and it's a real struggle to get back up there. You get muscle wastage as well.
Yes it does sound serious. I used to get heart palps up to 200 bpm that left me without enough oxygen to the brain etc and I couldn't move while I had them. I was lucky I got tests found they were debilitating but harmless, and I got them fixed.
It's a bugger when the experts don't know.