I have hard time to bear away my wide slalom/formula boards

Can you tell me what is technique to bear away when planning in both footstraps?
I have three solution in mind:

a)
Are you move sail forward just like in non plannning situation,or board will not respond any more to sail movement when planning?

b)
Or you turn with scissoring board with legs,front extend,back bend?

c)
Or heel to toe pressure,can slalom board turn downwind if I put both foot toe pressure?

(I try with toe preesure but nothing happend, because footstraps are on slalom boards on rails, so I can not tilt board to leeward to start turnning downwind..this works only on boards where footstraps are in centerline(wave,freestayle..) so you can carve/turn the board with both feet in straps..)

tell us what board & sail.
Rearfoot toe pressure & lift front foot. I do find heading down is sometimes harder on the really wide boards (95 wide+)
Do you gybe when planing?

c) But it's difficult if your board is wide and your fin is too small, and/or your footstraps are outboard especially if you are heavy.
If hanging more weight through the mastfoot doesn't help, and moving your footstraps inboard doesn't help then try a bigger fin.
Appropriate fin size for slalom boards is roughly equal to the width of the board at the middle of you back footstrap.

c), but with a little bit of a) as well.

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sailquik said..
c), but with a little bit of a) as well.

Same but with a lot of a) and you pray that your rear foot does not get off the footstraps

You comprise turning for early planning.
A big slalom board with hard rails and a flat bottom won't be easy to gybe, but will be easy to get planning. So try a wave slalom board in strong winds, something with soft rounded rails. That will help you get some gybes.

Presuming the fin size isn't too big, c.

i find sheeting in a little and sitting up (kind of like the very beginnings of going into a gybe) helps to swing off wind.

i find wider boards harder to swing offwind as well, unless im well powered.

isonic 85cm wide, warp 8.6,

I dont talk about steering in jibe,that is easy ,just put your back foot on leeward rail and board allways turn downwind.

I am talking about bear away when planning in both footstraps...

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Nubie said..
isonic 85cm wide, warp 8.6,

I dont talk about steering in jibe,that is easy ,just put your back foot on leeward rail and board allways turn downwind.

I am talking about bear away when planning in both footstraps...

Im not talking about gybing either. Just trying to relate the movements that help you to bear off downwind.

Sheet in and sit up a little. If that makes any sense.

Generally I dont understand how board can turn when planning in footstraps .It dont have rudder

We learned in school that are two ways for steering board:
A) moving sail fore and aft,shifting coe in relation to clr,when non plannning,that is clear.

B)carve board on rails when board is planning,example in jibe when you step on leeward rail,that is also clear.

So I dont understand how can I carve/tilt slalom board when I am planning with both feet in footstraps?
When I look at videos and others slalom sailors,when they bear away sail stay in same position all the time,so they must do somthing with they feet to turn bord downwind..

Look at this video, at 1:15 he bear away,I dont see that he move sail forward,sail stay in same position,but he obviously do something with his feet.Can someone explain what he doing at 1:15 to turn board downwind?

Raise boom.

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Nubie said..
Generally I dont understand how board can turn when planning in footstraps .It dont have rudder
...

Look at this video, at 1:15 he bear away,I dont see that he move sail forward,sail stay in same position,but he obviously do something with his feet.Can someone explain what he doing at 1:15 to turn board downwind?

You can see him sheet in with the back hand at the point he wants to change direction.

This will move the effort of the sail, and at the same time he is subtly changing the relationship between his feet to angle the board downwind.

Its quite a subtle movement.

What it actually does is make you load your front foot enough to push the board offwind, same as tilting the rig forward. Once youre on the direction you want to travel you can settle back into position as you see Antoine do.

(which is actually what formula just said now ive read his post )

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FormulaNova said..

You can see him sheet in with the back hand at the point he wants to change direction.

This will move the effort of the sail, and at the same time he is subtly changing the relationship between his feet to angle the board downwind.

When I sheet in ,board accelerate,but not turn ..


I see that he bent his back leg,is this new stance for new course or this cause board to turn?

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Subsonic said..
Its quite a subtle movement.

What it actually does is make you load your front foot enough to push the board offwind, same as tilting the rig forward. Once youre on the direction you want to travel you can settle back into position as you see Antoine do.

(which is actually what formula just said now ive read his post )

Tiliting sail forward is diffrent move than just sheet in like Formula said.
But tilt sail forward make sense to me because it move COE in front of CLR( first lesson in wsurf school)

Problem is that all members has diffrent suggestions..

I can steer my wave/freestyle boards when planning in footstraps but on wide slalom boards I dont know what to do..

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Nubie said..

Subsonic said..
Its quite a subtle movement.

What it actually does is make you load your front foot enough to push the board offwind, same as tilting the rig forward. Once youre on the direction you want to travel you can settle back into position as you see Antoine do.

(which is actually what formula just said now ive read his post )

Tiliting sail forward is diffrent move than just sheet in like Formula said.
But tilt sail forward make sense to me because it move COE in front of CLR( first lesson in wsurf school)

Problem is that all members has diffrent suggestions..

I can steer my wave/freestyle boards when planning in footstraps but on wide slalom boards I dont know what to do..

On a wave freestyle board, your rear foot is on the centre line of the board so when you push on your toes, you push on the leeward rails.You can do that with a formula board if you put your rear foot in the chicken straps. Otherwise your feet are too far away from the centreline and this is why you have to tilt the rig forward (with risk of catapult) and move the COE in front of the CLR as you said.

Push forwards through your front foot, ease off sideways pressure from your back foot. Board heads downwind.

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Cambodge said..
Push forwards through your front foot, ease off sideways pressure from your back foot. Board heads downwind.

Isnt it byproduct of moving sail forward?

When you hook in, only way to move sail forward is to move your hips forward,as a consequence now you have more pressure on front foot.
Am I correct?

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Cambodge said..
Push forwards through your front foot, ease off sideways pressure from your back foot. Board heads downwind.

That's what I would say too. In terms of your options above, I'd say scissoring your feet is the trick. At low speeds, I turn using the rail, so lift the windward rail to go downwind, but at high speeds, it's more about the weight distribution. Putting more weight through the mast foot will cause the board to bear off. I do that by pulling my back foot towards me and pushing the front leg away from me. Causes the back leg to bend more and the front leg to straighten. You do sheet in slightly too but really only to initiate the turn. The movements are very subtle. Especially if it's choppy, you don't want to push the nose into the water. Even when sailing downwind you need to keep pressure on the fin.

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Nubie said..

Cambodge said..
Push forwards through your front foot, ease off sideways pressure from your back foot. Board heads downwind.

Isnt it byproduct of moving sail forward?

When you hook in, only way to move sail forward is to move your hips forward,as a consequence now you have more pressure on front foot.
Am I correct?

I find it's the opposite. The sail movement is a byproduct of the foot pressure balance when planing. Actually, maybe it's simply look where you want to go and your body figures out the rest

Completely different when not planing, in which case it's much more the sail position.

Definitely transfer weight to your toes thus putting more weight on lee side of the board. The board will turn downwind. You cant change sail angle much but your back leg will need to bend more while your front leg straightens. If you straighten your back leg you will probably turn into the wind.

The faster you are going (planing) the less effort it is to bear off the wind.

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Dar said..
The faster you are going (planing) the less effort it is to bear off the wind.

I think this is because of board wet surface (clr) move back faster you go.
So it is easier put COE infront of CLR to bear away.

It's a bit like how do you balance on a bicycle? Hard to describe. I think they explained it well in the Castle;
"In summing up, it's the constitution, it's Mabo, it's justice, it's law, it's the vibe and aah no that's it, it's the vibe. I rest my case."

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jusavina said..
Same but with a lot of a) and you pray that your rear foot does not get off the footstraps

Sometimes back strap use like anchor against downwind catapult,but ussually situation where back foot want get off the strap is too late to safe yourself from hard landing on water surface infront board nose!

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Nubie said..

Dar said..
The faster you are going (planing) the less effort it is to bear off the wind.

I think this is because of board wet surface (clr) move back faster you go.
So it is easier put COE infront of CLR to bear away.

Also because the rails get less and less parallel the less of the board is in the water. Get it tracking on one rail and the fin has a better
ruddering angle.

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Sparky said..
It's a bit like how do you balance on a bicycle? Hard to describe. I think they explained it well in the Castle;
"In summing up, it's the constitution, it's Mabo, it's justice, it's law, it's the vibe and aah no that's it, it's the vibe. I rest my case."

Did you know you balance on a bicycle using your knees. And when you lean into a turn you actually steer the handlebars in the opposite direction to the turn. Weird! None of that is learned or intuitive...and yet I can ride a bike.

I watched Alan Cadiz dvd,he say when planning ,board will no longer response to sail steering..Now steering is metter of carving board,board must bank to leeward rail to turn downwind.

Did you notice when boat is moving ,boat will no longer response to bow thruster?
I think because of same reason why board will no longer response to sail steering when planning..

Boat/board trying to keep direction when moving,faster you go= more directional force which resist to every force which want turn boat/board..

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Nubie said..
I watched Alan Cadiz dvd,he say when planning ,board will no longer response to sail steering..Now steering is metter of carving board,board must bank to leeward rail to turn downwind.

Did you notice when boat is moving ,boat will no longer response to bow thruster?
I think because of same reason why board will no longer response to sail steering when planning..

Boat/board trying to keep direction when moving,faster you go= more directional force which resist to every force which want turn boat/board..

In some ways thats right, in other ways it's wrong.

The board has much more direction when youre planing, and turning is a lot more about carving than pushing the board around with the sail and hence the feet, but carving still requires a change in weight placement. Its possible to sail leeward rail down whilst planing, and the board won't carve off downwind, till you change how you are loading everything.

Alan Cadiz comments were probably said as a generalisation, with the intent to teach learners who are on the cusp of planing, that the rules they've learned about moving the board around are about to change quite drastically, not an open/shut explanation of how it all works.

Stop trying to to go upwind i.e. stop pushing against the fin, gently let the sail pull you over the board, more weight to your front foot toes and you should naturally bear away. The faster you go, the more subtle you should be. I think most of the time trying to do it by feel rather than by overanalysis is more effective in windsurfing.

To turn you use the effect of the water on the board (eg carving) and/or the wind on the sail (eg moving the rig relative to the board). In your case when wanting to steer without carving just move the rig the right way relative to the board, you will then turn downwind. The most effective direction to move the rig depends on the direction the wind is pushing your sail. When at speed you may find it is most effective to bear away by moving the sail to windward and slightly forward. Often only small movements may be required, across the board and forward. The key in regard to the sail is that it is not just the forwards and backwards movement of the sail that controls turning, often combining this with moving the sail sideways across the board will have the biggest effect on direction of travel.

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Subsonic said..

Nubie said..
I watched Alan Cadiz dvd,he say when planning ,board will no longer response to sail steering..Now steering is metter of carving board,board must bank to leeward rail to turn downwind.

Did you notice when boat is moving ,boat will no longer response to bow thruster?
I think because of same reason why board will no longer response to sail steering when planning..

Boat/board trying to keep direction when moving,faster you go= more directional force which resist to every force which want turn boat/board..

In some ways thats right, in other ways it's wrong.

The board has much more direction when youre planing, and turning is a lot more about carving than pushing the board around with the sail and hence the feet, but carving still requires a change in weight placement. Its possible to sail leeward rail down whilst planing, and the board won't carve off downwind, till you change how you are loading everything.

Alan Cadiz comments were probably said as a generalisation, with the intent to teach learners who are on the cusp of planing, that the rules they've learned about moving the board around are about to change quite drastically, not an open/shut explanation of how it all works.

Yes wrong and right,speed gives more directional stability,but also decrease wetted surface thus decrease overall board lateral resistance.
Bow thruster use in boats to turn bow ,for easier docking,but bow thurster only work if boat is not moving,faster the boat moving thruster turnibility reduce rapidly.
I use bow thurster as example of analogy for sail steering,(CLR in relation to COE.)Because in reality bow thruster doing exactly that..
Remeber if you put thruster in line with CLR(somewhere in the middle of boat),bow will not turn any more,instead entire boat will go sideways ...





(Alan Cadiz words DVD,chapter footstraps:
"Put front foot in strap.Dont rush with back strap.Just if you in front strap doesnt mean you have to be in back strap.But it does mean you have to steer the board with your feet.Rember at planning speed board will no longer respond to sail steering,your direction will now control with foot steering....")