Defi wave sails

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Ben1973 > 9 months ago, 28 May 2022

Ben1973

1008 posts

29 May 2022 7:38am

Vincent valkenaers thinks it's the board and fin that's important, pretty much any sail can go quick.

GasHazard

QLD

385 posts

29 May 2022 11:46am

Will we ever see foils at Luderitz?

tonyk

QLD

609 posts

29 May 2022 1:29pm

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duzzi said..

PhilUK said..

duzzi said..
Not sure what does it matter if you like Andrea Cucchi or not ...

But anyway, if anything the cam sails, AC-Z and AC-ONE, have a small size advantage 7.8 vs 7.5 for the ACX. Andrea Cucchi is going at quite a pace, 37 knots and change over 500 meters. It is a pace of a pro-level slalom sailor, like he is, and still there is no speed advantage for the ACZ or AC-ONE. (Which of course does not mean that cams have not other advantages in a race situation.) So, a wave sail for regular sailors might be competitive in much windier conditions, say, 25-30 knots. Competitive or not, if Dunkerbeck says that he used a 5.5 race sail and he was maxed out, well ... many of us would be forced to use a wave sail ... few have a race 5.0 or smaller in their quiver.

I mentioned I like Andrea Cucci because I was about to pick holes in his advertising. Nothing against him.
If I was sailing with a cammed race sail I would be using about 1m larger than a no cam sail.
I think he said the ACK run was fast because he found some flatter water between the swells.
On the photo with the GPS he spent a LOT more time on the ACX to get those speeds than the AC-One.
In his videos of winter training on Tenerife, he had his top PWA racers on ACX against other 'normal' national level racers on their race sails and the ACX sailor won, because they were top level PWA racers, not because the ACX was as fast as a race sail.
If you want to believe no cams are as fast as cammed, carry on.
I use a GPS and my speeds on 3 cam freerace sails are faster than no cammed. The only board I have used both types of sail was my Exocet Cross 90l. The 3 cam was only 1-2 knots faster on the 10 second average, depending on the sail size.

Marion Mortefon won the women's with a 4m wave sail, Sarah Jackson was 3rd 3:30 behind with a 5m race sail. I think the difference is in sailor skill and Sarah was too overpowered with a 5m.

Yes, if you dont have a small race sail a wave sail will get you around the course at a good speed.
You dont see speed sailors on no cam sails, Why? Because they arent as fast.

For the recreational sailor, using no cammed sails is a good idea as they are less hassle and easier to use. I stopped using freerace sails 7 years ago in favour of 2 cam/no cam freeride sails. But I dont go as fast.

Not sure where you see the advertisement. Point-7 has four race sails on the line up, ACX, ACZ, ACK and AC-ONE, and they are very clear saying that cam sails are best for racing! They spell it out for you in detail: point-7.com/2020/03/17/the-ac-line/?v=7516fd43adaa.

Cams give you more power and keep you going in lulls. More Speed? Questionable if powered up, unless you cross above PWA top speed of 35-37 knots, and are on a speed strip.

But again you are missing the whole point. That is that for a long distance race (especially one with one jibe!) in very windy conditions a no-cam sail can be very competitive ... or be a survival tool for light and/or not-pro level sailor: if you do not finish it does not matter how fast you go!

From my experience and personal data 100% a cam race sail is easier to gybe and faster through the gybe in all sailing conditions on both fin and foil

choco

4177 posts

29 May 2022 1:46pm

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GasHazard said..
Will we ever see foils at Luderitz?

Yes, along with body bags

sboardcrazy

NSW

8292 posts

29 May 2022 3:57pm

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duzzi said..

PhilUK said..

duzzi said..

Cross posting, below Andrea Cucchi compares 7.5 and change slalom sails with zero, two and three cams, in ideal conditions. No difference in speed.

I like Andrea Cucci as he is an enthusiastic owner of a windsurf company who does his own R&D.
But, who uses a 7.8m race sail and 7.5m no cam sail in the same windspeed? Thats a no cam freerace type sail, not wave sail.
He actually tells you the speed difference between the sails, which is why they use cammed sails for racing.

He has posted stuff like that before. The largest difference between a full on race sail and no cam freerace is the battery power required to get the speeds.

Not sure what does it matter if you like Andrea Cucchi or not ...

But anyway, if anything the cam sails, AC-Z and AC-ONE, have a small size advantage 7.8 vs 7.5 for the ACX. Andrea Cucchi is going at quite a pace, 37 knots and change over 500 meters. It is a pace of a pro-level slalom sailor, like he is, and still there is no speed advantage for the ACZ or AC-ONE. (Which of course does not mean that cams have not other advantages in a race situation.) So, a wave sail for regular sailors might be competitive in much windier conditions, say, 25-30 knots. Competitive or not, if Dunkerbeck says that he used a 5.5 race sail and he was maxed out, well ... many of us would be forced to use a wave sail ... few have a race 5.0 or smaller in their quiver.

Marion Mortefon at 6:08 on a wave sail

Great video!
It's nice to see the focus on windsurfers for once.
Why do they drive the boat across the front of everyone ? Is that supposed to give a start line?
It seems like a dangerous stupid idea.. It would be hard enough to start without having a massive boat wake to deal with as well.

cald

QLD

164 posts

29 May 2022 4:22pm

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sboardcrazy said..

duzzi said..

PhilUK said..

duzzi said..

Cross posting, below Andrea Cucchi compares 7.5 and change slalom sails with zero, two and three cams, in ideal conditions. No difference in speed.

Yip the boat is the start, imagine having 1300 competitors on a startline and trying to marshal anyone over early... hence the boat, no arguing there. As far as I know its not been an issue with boat related incidents, probably plenty of crashes in the pile up behind it though.

Ben1973

1008 posts

29 May 2022 9:34pm

It's got to be one of the more dangerous events, just imagine the insurance forms. event will take place in 40plus knots offshore, we will drive a large high speed power boat across the front of 1000plus people who are mostly out of control then we shall make it a figure 8 so we have everyone heading towards each other, what could go wrong, oh and just for the hell of it we will let foils into the mix.

There must be accidents but you never hear about them. I still want to do it

regal1

NSW

449 posts

30 May 2022 7:27am

You're right in the French have a different attitude to risk. Still, given its always offshore, the organisers lay a 10km long line & buoys out to sea so there's a line to catch. Sailing outside that line is instant disqualification as is not signing on or off as happened last year at the Defi superstars.

choco

4177 posts

30 May 2022 8:25am

Found one Aussie competing

Matt UK

285 posts

30 May 2022 7:48am

Couldn't get better timing than this really.

Check out the link.

dedekam

57 posts

30 May 2022 1:09pm

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Ben1973 said..
Vincent valkenaers thinks it's the board and fin that's important, pretty much any sail can go quick.

That is interesting, where did you see this?

sboardcrazy

NSW

8292 posts

30 May 2022 5:27pm

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dedekam said..

Ben1973 said..
Vincent valkenaers thinks it's the board and fin that's important, pretty much any sail can go quick.

That is interesting, where did you see this?

Subscribe to Nico Prien on YouTube. He's a German slalom sailor.
Some good videos.

Ben1973

1008 posts

30 May 2022 10:53pm

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dedekam said..

Ben1973 said..
Vincent valkenaers thinks it's the board and fin that's important, pretty much any sail can go quick.

That is interesting, where did you see this?

It was in a interview, he was asked what's the most important bit of kit for speed, he said board then fin. When asked about sails he said any sail could go fast.
makes sense really for the angles there riding at, even a parachute will do 50knots in a 50knot wind

dedekam

57 posts

31 May 2022 5:24am

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Ben1973 said..

dedekam said..

Ben1973 said..
Vincent valkenaers thinks it's the board and fin that's important, pretty much any sail can go quick.

That is interesting, where did you see this?

Right, I remember that. Ben Profitt did an interview with him:

PhilUK

1107 posts

31 May 2022 3:56pm

A few bullet points from the video.
6:00 Look at the state of that fin

8:25 His previous years Pryde 5.2 sail is faster than the new version (for him anyway)
9:15 Low sail - close the gap - for those who think this doesnt matter
10:00 Harness lines are 26-28cm
11:00 Low boom - but that and harness line length are personal choice, there is no formulae to go fast.
13:40 He takes his girlfriend to La Palme on vacation

14:30 You cant go fast on kit you arent comfortable with. so board and fin are the most important. He said you can go fast with a wave sail, but I think he was emphasising the importance of board and fin over sail. He mentioned when talking about fins earlier that his fins dont spin out and he trusts them (Ben showed Patrik's wipe out after a spinout). But see 2nd point, nobody goes speedsailing at the top with wave sails.

28knts

NSW

84 posts

31 May 2022 9:11pm

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Wind Smurf said..
Couldn't get better timing than this really.

Check out the link.

I mix my gear a bit I enjoy it. Testing and trying different combos. Have used my small wave sails on slalom gear it's fun. Only thing things can a little bit more twitchy with the wave sail on slalom board, don't have that lock in control you get from race and cam sails.

Ben1973

1008 posts

31 May 2022 8:35pm

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PhilUK said..
A few bullet points from the video.
6:00 Look at the state of that fin

Maybe someone should try going speed sailing with a wave sail, people have done over 40 with them in open water so what could they do at ludervitz. Send dunkerbeck down the Chanel on wave kit and I think some might be supprised

cald

QLD

164 posts

1 Jun 2022 9:48am

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Ben1973 said..

PhilUK said..
A few bullet points from the video.
6:00 Look at the state of that fin

A good sailor on wave gear in the channel in 40/50+ knots is going to go really fast. Not as fast as the same sailor on speed gear, but still really fast compared to 'normal' sailing - i.e well over 40 knots. The underlying principle is diminishing returns as they push the upper limits of winds and speeds the changes in gear start making smaller and smaller differences. So the sails still matter and to recreational speed sailors they matter more because we don't have a channel with 40/50+ knots on it. Paying attention to the last luderitz and some of the guys on social media some of them weren't even interested unless it was 35 knots and then they considered this a 'light wind training day to get used to the channel' they know 35 knots isn't enough to get close to the WR. It really is a different world to almost any other sailing on the planet, so the comment about the sails not being important is pretty mute unless you are in one of these few select spots with extreme winds and water conditions.

mr love

VIC

2415 posts

1 Jun 2022 12:53pm

In theory a wave sail is capable of doing the high speeds the guys are doing now. The sail drag is not the limiting factor, just look at some of the crap sails ice yachts use..it is board and fin drag and the cavitaion barrier that is the biggest issue. If a wave sail is generating enough power it can get to those speed..... HOWEVER the sails ergonomics are really important..the draft stability and balance. Can you imagine being on the limit, on the edge of a massive wipeout and having an unstable sail with the draft moving everywhere and throwing you off balance? That is the huge advantage of a cammed dedicated race / speed sail. It has the correct profile in the correct place and it stays there.

choco

4177 posts

1 Jun 2022 12:33pm

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mr love said..
In theory a wave sail is capable of doing the high speeds the guys are doing now. The sail drag is not the limiting factor, just look at some of the crap sails ice yachts use..it is board and fin drag and the cavitaion barrier that is the biggest issue. If a wave sail is generating enough power it can get to those speed..... HOWEVER the sails ergonomics are really important..the draft stability and balance. Can you imagine being on the limit, on the edge of a massive wipeout and having an unstable sail with the draft moving everywhere and throwing you off balance? That is the huge advantage of a cammed dedicated race / speed sail. It has the correct profile in the correct place and it stays there.

Carbon tube battens would help with draft stability in a wave sail?

PhilUK

1107 posts

1 Jun 2022 5:14pm

Ben's race 5 video. He said it was slightly upwind on the way back up. In the comments a guy on 5.2 ACX said he had to tack.

Andy's race 3 video. He said the wind was at 90 with some shifts.

PhilUK

1107 posts

1 Jun 2022 5:18pm

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Also, with a cammed sail you can use an adjustable outhaul to set it fuller or flatter as required. The cams & 7 or 8 battens keep the profile. Anybody tried that with a wave sail?
In Bens race 5 video he sail it was slightly downwind then upwind on the way back. You can see from the top speed on each leg the difference.

cald

QLD

164 posts

1 Jun 2022 9:04pm

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PhilUK said..

Some "decent" sailors apparently had to do multiple tacks on the legs back, combination of both direction and it was lighter than they expected... all advantageous for the foils! Really looking forward to seeing some genuine pwa foil vs fin battles

GazMan

847 posts

1 Jun 2022 7:56pm

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regal1 said..
You're right in the French have a different attitude to risk. Still, given its always offshore, the organisers lay a 10km long line & buoys out to sea so there's a line to catch. Sailing outside that line is instant disqualification as is not signing on or off as happened last year at the Defi superstars.

Yeah the French are a crazy bunch!!! This is the French mountain biking equivalent of Defi Wind:

Ben1973

1008 posts

1 Jun 2022 8:51pm

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Good point I do some ice boating and looking at some of the rigs it's like looking at some of the first windsurfing sails. Often thought about converting one of my old cammed race sails so see how they would go.

GazMan

847 posts

1 Jun 2022 9:02pm

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Ben1973 said..

PhilUK said..
A few bullet points from the video.
6:00 Look at the state of that fin

Maybe someone should try going speed sailing with a wave sail, people have done over 40 with them in open water so what could they do at ludervitz. Send dunkerbeck down the Chanel on wave kit and I think some might be supprised

FYI Ben 45.66 knot peak at Luderitz on wave sail:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Wave-sail

ZeeGerman

304 posts

1 Jun 2022 11:05pm

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GazMan said..

Ben1973 said..

PhilUK said..
A few bullet points from the video.
6:00 Look at the state of that fin

FYI Ben 45.66 knot peak at Luderitz on wave sail:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Wave-sail

Pretty fast indeed, but of course a far cry from the speeds he has done on proper speed gear.
I would assume that the extremely deep course increases the performance gap between cammed and uncammed as the uncammed sail will be a lot more unstable, while on a reaching course the wave sail will be a lot fuller, its centre of effort will move around but it won't lose its shape.
I guess the Defi will never be won on a wave sail but if more of the top guys used them, we would be surprised how fast they can go on them.
Ben Proffit did well on his wave sails but when the wind dropped he gambled for his smallest race sail (6.3) and came in something like 31st and 32nd in the two remaining races. Obviously the race sail is a big advantage in the hands of a very accomplished sailor, be he too small and light by PWA standards.
A friend of mine who ranked somewhere around place 80 in his best race this year (a pretty good recreational sailor) always uses a Tabou 3s and a four batten wave sail, claiming that on the first downwind leg you will invariably be faster than you want to be anyway given the chop and more than a thousand people around you.
Most of us would probably want to take the gear they're most comfortable with to up their chances of surviving four or five races in a Defi Wind. Cramps and soreness might slow you down more than a sail not designed for top speed.

duzzi

1123 posts

1 Jun 2022 11:46pm

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ZeeGerman said..

GazMan said..

Ben1973 said..

PhilUK said..
A few bullet points from the video.
6:00 Look at the state of that fin

FYI Ben 45.66 knot peak at Luderitz on wave sail:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Wave-sail

You use what you like! And if there still was a slalom series around here, or if I could enter the DEFI, I would not consider a cam sail. In small sizes and windy conditions a multi-batten no-cams sail like the ACX would seem the best of both worlds for the vast majority of sailors out there. For what it has to do, just turn, it is almost as agile as a wave sail, but with the same top speed of a cam sail. (And for aged sailors it does not kills your back!)

And why not use a wave sail if the wind goes up to 30 knots. Maybe something freewave oriented, like a Point-7 Spy, with a lot of draft stability.

PhilUK

1107 posts

2 Jun 2022 2:22am

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GazMan said..

Ben1973 said..

Maybe someone should try going speed sailing with a wave sail, people have done over 40 with them in open water so what could they do at ludervitz. Send dunkerbeck down the Chanel on wave kit and I think some might be supprised

FYI Ben 45.66 knot peak at Luderitz on wave sail:

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Wave-sail

Like ZeeGerman said, down the canal it would probably be a larger gap. 42.64 is very fast, but Im wondering if he had a 6.2m AC1 would he go a few knots faster, 46, +7%. He has larger ones listed in his equipment, maybe he didnt take them as he didnt take a larger board.

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Defi wave sails

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28knts

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