Select to expand quote

elmo said..

Mark _australia said..
discus I was talking about kite knife to cut the straps either side of the spreader bar not the sail hahahaa

Elmo, reason I mention that is some harnesses just will not come undone under tension. If twisted thereis no way you will push the line off the hook by hand.

Imax - any windsurf spreader!!!!

G'day Mark
I should have clarified

Feel down to the harness hook and unhook by hand (I've used both hands), do-able even with twists (been there). I can be done even with.

I would never again try to undo harness or spreader as takes longer and has a greater potential for further entanglement, but everyone to their own. Tried once, never again.

Best suggestion is that if this is an issue for some people then 10min of practice before a session (without the board attached) of trapping yourself under the sail (takes out the shock of the initial stack) and practicing escape methods (including twisted harness lines) quickly makes you realize it isn't all that difficult to extract yourself and allows yourself to be prepared for next time.

I wouldn't recommend my learning method which involved LOTS of crashes and rag dolling at speed.

Yes Elmo, your experience confirms what i suspected. Undoing the harness, or trying to get out of it could cause more entanglement and time loss!...Thanks for sharing your experience.

Practice sessions (and as described by Mikey100) but including the board sounds a great idea. In fact I wonder if it should be part of the "beginners" training.

Select to expand quote

Mastbender said..
Here in the states we call those kiting harness hooks "knuckle head" hooks, EXTREMELY DANGEROUS FOR WINDSURFING for reasons stated above, they should come with a warning tag on them about that.
The next time that happens to you, it will be better, even if you twisted around 180 degrees, you can still pry the harness line off the hook with your fingers once you get some slack in the harness line.

Wait until you get vacu-formed under your sail in less than knee deep water, with waves going over the top of the sail, that's really fun, even w/o being hooked in, you can't breath, and you can't push the sail off of you. Don't panic, just slide your body out from underneath it sideways. When you finally come out from underneath, spitting sand, your friends are standing there looking down at you, and one will ask, was that fun for you? Your answer may vary.

Mastbender, wrote:
"even if you twisted around 180 degrees, you can still pry the harness line off the hook with your fingers once you get some slack in the harness line.....Don't panic, just slide your body out from underneath it sideways. When you finally come out from underneath"

...Thank you my friend for confirming the plausibility of these two aspects.

Select to expand quote

Peter Ciesa said..
Hi Discus,
This happens often to me at Boggy Lake. Generally when I hit carp it's a slow catapult, can't release hook, rotate over the front sometimes landing on top of my gear and rarely under the sail.
How-ever if I'm under the sail (because this isn't new to me) I try to quickly pull myself towards the boom to release the hook tension and unhitch with my hand and then swim/kick out. I also wear a buoyancy vest so it makes life interesting if the mast skewers into the water at an angle to increase the hook/harness line tension!
Anyway I'm still alive:-) Key point is take a breath before you hit the drink.

Cheers Peter (aka PJ)

Many Thanks Pete, Ill see you out there sometime.

This happened to me in Maui about half a kilometre offshore.

i did a gybe and as I released the sail the harness hook got hooked in the finger hold on the tail of adjustable harness lines. I don't know how this happened as it's almost difficult to do it on purpose.

i did panic at first but after a second to calm down I disengaged my harness spreader bar. I had the old Neil Pryde automatic harness with the ratchet lock. It was easy to hit the button on each side. I did lose the spreader bar but I didn't mind given the circumstances. :)

Select to expand quote

hardie said..

elmo said..

Mark _australia said..
discus I was talking about kite knife to cut the straps either side of the spreader bar not the sail hahahaa

Elmo, reason I mention that is some harnesses just will not come undone under tension. If twisted thereis no way you will push the line off the hook by hand.

Imax - any windsurf spreader!!!!

G'day Mark
I should have clarified

Feel down to the harness hook and unhook by hand (I've used both hands), do-able even with twists (been there). I can be done even with.

I would never again try to undo harness or spreader as takes longer and has a greater potential for further entanglement, but everyone to their own. Tried once, never again.

Best suggestion is that if this is an issue for some people then 10min of practice before a session (without the board attached) of trapping yourself under the sail (takes out the shock of the initial stack) and practicing escape methods (including twisted harness lines) quickly makes you realize it isn't all that difficult to extract yourself and allows yourself to be prepared for next time.

I wouldn't recommend my learning method which involved LOTS of crashes and rag dolling at speed.

Elmo helped me get over my major fear of drowning and panic lst time I got caught under the sail hooked in. He came to my place where I have a pool, we rigged up a sail, and then got me to twist the harness line around the hook, jump into the pool, and calmly rescure myself about 10 times, making it slightly more difficult each time, greatly helps when you have rehearsed rescuing yourself, go and try it in shallow water with friend on standby......

I did something similar when I was first learning. It freaked me out the few times it happened to me, so I found some shallow water, got under the sail and unhooked, and repeated until I wasn't worried by it. I always had in the back of my mind that if I couldn't unhook, I can remove the harness. It may take more time, but its doable. As long as you stay calm.

I used to wear contact lenses as well, so when I went into the water I would close my eyes to stop them washing out. A few times I was swimming blindly out from under the sail for what seemed ages. I was swimming along the mast, until I figured out that pulling along the boom as usually the shortest way out.

Hi mate, it sounds like this shook you up a bit, I remember doing this too and it's scary. Pop round to mine anytime and we'll practice some drills, you're always welcome to buddy up with the Seacliff crew... I'll pm you Get Back On It !

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

hardie said..

elmo said..

Mark _australia said..
discus I was talking about kite knife to cut the straps either side of the spreader bar not the sail hahahaa

Elmo, reason I mention that is some harnesses just will not come undone under tension. If twisted thereis no way you will push the line off the hook by hand.

Imax - any windsurf spreader!!!!

G'day Mark
I should have clarified

Feel down to the harness hook and unhook by hand (I've used both hands), do-able even with twists (been there). I can be done even with.

I would never again try to undo harness or spreader as takes longer and has a greater potential for further entanglement, but everyone to their own. Tried once, never again.

Best suggestion is that if this is an issue for some people then 10min of practice before a session (without the board attached) of trapping yourself under the sail (takes out the shock of the initial stack) and practicing escape methods (including twisted harness lines) quickly makes you realize it isn't all that difficult to extract yourself and allows yourself to be prepared for next time.

I wouldn't recommend my learning method which involved LOTS of crashes and rag dolling at speed.

Elmo helped me get over my major fear of drowning and panic lst time I got caught under the sail hooked in. He came to my place where I have a pool, we rigged up a sail, and then got me to twist the harness line around the hook, jump into the pool, and calmly rescure myself about 10 times, making it slightly more difficult each time, greatly helps when you have rehearsed rescuing yourself, go and try it in shallow water with friend on standby......

I did something similar when I was first learning. It freaked me out the few times it happened to me, so I found some shallow water, got under the sail and unhooked, and repeated until I wasn't worried by it. I always had in the back of my mind that if I couldn't unhook, I can remove the harness. It may take more time, but its doable. As long as you stay calm.

I used to wear contact lenses as well, so when I went into the water I would close my eyes to stop them washing out. A few times I was swimming blindly out from under the sail for what seemed ages. I was swimming along the mast, until I figured out that pulling along the boom as usually the shortest way out.

FormulaNova,
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

First thing to do when your caught under the sail is to use spell check.....

I'ld forgotten all about those little scares, after reading this I'm starting to feel paranoid, best to be aware though.

I had a similar situation as a newbie many years ago, catapulted, caught under the sail hooked in, with harness lines twisted around the harness hook - it can happen even with the proper hook. Sail was to windward with a strong seabreeze pushing it into the water, so no chance of pushing the sail up. It is amazing how many things you can try in a short length of time, like trying to get your head past the sail while still hooked in, but eventually I thought of using my hands to push the harness line off the hook, which worked, thankfully, because I was getting frighteningly short of air and I was really thinking I could drown. It was really scary. I sat spluttering on the board for quite some time, and I can still remember someone coming by to ask if I was OK.
Later I thought of using the quick release on the harness bar, but there are still other clips to be undone to get out of the harness.
First thing to do is use your hand to push the harness line off the hook.
I can't remember ever having the same problem again - with the harness lines wrapped around the hook - but I have been caught under the sail many times. It is always a little scary but you just pull yourself along the boom and swim out.

If this ever happens to you again you will know exactly what to do - push the harness lines off with your hand and swim to the mast.
You will be fine.

Select to expand quote

Windxtasy said..
I had a similar situation as a newbie many years ago, catapulted, caught under the sail hooked in, with harness lines twisted around the harness hook - it can happen even with the proper hook. Sail was to windward with a strong seabreeze pushing it into the water, so no chance of pushing the sail up. It is amazing how many things you can try in a short length of time, like trying to get your head past the sail while still hooked in, but eventually I thought of using my hands to push the harness line off the hook, which worked, thankfully, because I was getting frighteningly short of air and I was really thinking I could drown. It was really scary. I sat spluttering on the board for quite some time, and I can still remember someone coming by to ask if I was OK.
Later I thought of using the quick release on the harness bar, but there are still other clips to be undone to get out of the harness.
First thing to do is use your hand to push the harness line off the hook.
I can't remember ever having the same problem again - with the harness lines wrapped around the hook - but I have been caught under the sail many times. It is always a little scary but you just pull yourself along the boom and swim out.

If this ever happens to you again you will know exactly what to do - push the harness lines off with your hand and swim to the mast.
You will be fine.

Thank you Windxtasy.

Agreed on trying to push harness lines off hook. But you first have to make the harness lines slack to unhook em. Hips to boom first. Ive had my share of catapults when snicking a sandbank with the fin. Catapult into even shallower water with twisted lines, pinned to the bottom by the current pushing strongly down on the sail. Hips to the boom, harness lines go slack n easily removed by hand. Then head for the mast for that Gulp of fresh air. Oh yeah, STAY CALM.

Select to expand quote

MrCranky said..

joe windsurf said..
could one remove one or both sides of these clip harnesses ? while stuck under sail hooked in ...
easier to cut in any case ...


kiter/windsurfer says he ALWAYS carries a knife
kite lines are dangerous !!
i had one wrapped around my toe :-(
light wind day and still have my toe !!

Too fiddly, you'll drown before you manage to undo the clips.

Come to think of it, those lines are very stiff, so probably less likely to tightly twist during one of those "rag-doll land on your back" catapults.

Select to expand quote

olskool said..
Agreed on trying to push harness lines off hook. But you first have to make the harness lines slack to unhook em. Hips to boom first. Ive had my share of catapults when snicking a sandbank with the fin. Catapult into even shallower water with twisted lines, pinned to the bottom by the current pushing strongly down on the sail. Hips to the boom, harness lines go slack n easily removed by hand. Then head for the mast for that Gulp of fresh air. Oh yeah, STAY CALM.

olskool,
I think you have emphasized a very essential point. Possibly thats why I initially could not un-hook...and when I exhaled i must have stopped pulling against the lines, thereby freeing the hook. ...." Hips to the boom, harness lines go slack n easily removed by hand"

I wonder what the strategy is if you are pinned between the mast and the boom and there is no visibility to see which way to unwind out from the sail?.....get out of the harness?

If you sail enough, everyone will get trapped under their sail while hooked in. It just happens. Don't panic, it will only take 5-10 seconds to slack the harness line, un-hook and work you way out from under the sail, even if you take the long route up to the top. I am sure that I have done this at least a dozen times + in the last 34 years.

Select to expand quote

Discus said..I wonder what the strategy is if you are pinned between the mast and the boom and there is no visibility to see which way to unwind out from the sail?.....get out of the harness?

Trying to visualize getting stuck between the mast and the boom, having trouble with that one. (?)

As Elmo says, practice makes perfect

Select to expand quote

Imax1 said..
I once got cought between the boom and sailI and almost drowned . I own a Mystic Majestic harness and it only comes with a universal hour glass hook.
I don't want to die !
Does anyone know a tapered hook spreader bar that will fit ?

Imax1 said..
I once got cought between the boom and sailI and almost drowned .

Imax, How did you get out of that situation ?

Just don't sail when you have a cold. Then you won't cough under your sail

How long are your harness lines? Really short lines would be harder to release.

I can remember when clear mono film started being used, nothing like coming up to the surface and going to grab a lung full of air and getting a lung full of water instead as you hit your head on the invisible sail, then almost always you would start swimming along the mast to get out instead of the shortest way.

Death of a sailsman? Statistically close to zero. Been sailing for decades and I've never even seen someone seriously injured. Google fatalities and the reasons are usually clear. Protip: leave 47kt days to the pros, and protect your head.

I'd add to the excellent advice in this thread: keep grip on boom and follow the sail in a 'pult. Less chance of twisting and damage to you and your kit.


Finally: i had life-threatening asthma in my youth, and taking up sailing was a definite turning point. Get back on that Hawk Evan!

Select to expand quote

Kazza said..
I'ld forgotten all about those little scares, after reading this I'm starting to feel paranoid, best to be aware though.

+1.. Doesn't pay to think too much..

I have had the pleasure of being caught under a few times, but the weirdest one is being catapulted, still being harnessed in then being between the sail and 40 cm of water with rocks underneath me and the sail being held down by 20knot winds and dragged along. Being in deep water I could manoeuvre and get out with ease, being in shallow, out of breath and deciding "stuff it" my head is going through the sail.

But the quick release on the harness worked well, and saved damaging the sail. Then getting up and carrying on as if it was normal whilst a number of witnesses (no names but you know who you are) kept laughing - the good times!!!!!

Sounds weird but I practise quick releasing from my harness out of the water so I know exactly what to do in the water in the mentioned situation.

Reading this is getting my hear rate up. Happened to me a couple of times, most recently a few weeks back. Was completely disorientated under the sail and hooked in. Took the long way getting clear of the sail. Not a nice feeling. Easy to say don't panic, and its great advice, but when you feel you might be drowning irs hard to be calm.

Great advice about the spreader bar.

Select to expand quote

John340 said..
As Elmo says, practice makes perfect

Take up foiling if you want practice. When the porpoising comes to a conclusion your last thought is to steer all those pointy bits away from you. Which generally means you crashing to windward with the sail on top.

This thread first came up on rec. windsurfing decades ago. If you crash with the rig the first thing to do is grab the hook to make sure it's clear. Then you'll never get that unsettling tug as you start to swim out from under. In those decades I've checked the hook thousands of times. Can't recall ever still being hooked in though.

Select to expand quote

Ian K said..

This thread first came up on rec. windsurfing decades ago. If you crash with the rig the first thing to do is grab the hook to make sure it's clear. Then you'll never get that unsettling tug as you start to swim out from under. In those decades I've checked the hook thousands of times. Can't recall ever still being hooked in though.

Hey, that's good advice. If you check it first, and it is twisted, you get it sorted fast.

I think that the times I got caught on the harness lines were when I was learning. Thinking about it now, it probably means that I twisted as I was thrown over the front, otherwise how would the lines end up twisted.

Now, I pretty much hold onto the boom even when I go over. It avoids me hitting the boom and the mast, and it sounds like it also avoids twisting the lines, and they don't get hooked up.

Select to expand quote

FormulaNova said..

Ian K said..

This thread first came up on rec. windsurfing decades ago. If you crash with the rig the first thing to do is grab the hook to make sure it's clear. Then you'll never get that unsettling tug as you start to swim out from under. In those decades I've checked the hook thousands of times. Can't recall ever still being hooked in though.

Hey, that's good advice. If you check it first, and it is twisted, you get it sorted fast.

I think that the times I got caught on the harness lines were when I was learning. Thinking about it now, it probably means that I twisted as I was thrown over the front, otherwise how would the lines end up twisted.

Now, I pretty much hold onto the boom even when I go over. It avoids me hitting the boom and the mast, and it sounds like it also avoids twisting the lines, and they don't get hooked up.

yeah - I always hang onto the boom if I can. Very good advice if learning to foil as well. Let go of the boom and risk falling back onto a sharp foil riding out of the water.

Select to expand quote

John340 said..

sboardcrazy said..

firerock said..
Agree with sl55.
Prolimit harness with quick release feature. Tie a small tail with outhaul line to the loop feature for easy access.
Try not to panic & push your hips toward the boom to ease tension.

Mm I've got as prolimit spreader bar on a kite harness..whats the quick release look like?

Its the read tag where the bar attaches to the harness, See photo below

Ok. Mines got that..I thought every harness had them ?

Getting caught under sail in shallow water, as others above have described, is much scarier. You don't have to be hooked in.
Happened to me once while I was standing in knee-deep water and simply flipping the sail. Wind sheer - BAM! - You're stuck!. Scary ****.
Embarrassing too.