Andrea Cucci said not much difference. Thats what Surf mag said with a freerace vs slalom board test in 2020. With JP, Tabou & Fanatic the slalom boards were only 2 km/h faster, same sails and fins. More acceleration due to wide tails perhaps. If you are racing, then you are going to take the full on kit (if you can handle it), as it could be a 20m distance over full slalom course.

Before he did that video, he put some GPS speeds up of a different test he did. He did the test on 2 different days, saying the wind was the same.
There wasnt much difference in top speeds between the AC-One and ACX, but on the slalom sail he used up a lot less battery life than the co cam The 500m alpha had the biggest difference. Seeing as a slalom course is made up of gybes, thats important.
I made up a theoretical slalom course based on 4 500m alphas, plus some top 100m & 250m speeds to get a full course. The slalom sail was 118m/8.3s ahead, or 1 knot faster overall. All very theoretical nonsense, but still convinces me I dont need full on slalom kit which is stupid expensive and harder to use.

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PhilUK said..
All very theoretical nonsense, but still convinces me I dont need full on slalom kit which is stupid expensive and harder to use.

I perfectly agree with you, the only thing from slalom world that I'll never change is the fin, a carbon fin allow you to push as harder as you can and it guarantee you no spin out and an excellence controll in challenging conditios. For the rest I must be honest with myself and admit that a good no cam slalom sail and a freerace board have much higher limits than mine

So what I'm getting from all this is:

1. It's not necessarily the case that a camless freeride sail is going to cause too many problems on a slalom board, and in fact can be more than OK.

2. That there are a number of slalom baords with a track record of going fine under camless sails.

3. That most of us agree that a camless sails are preferable on rough waters if simply for the ease of waterstarting (many times I have been waterstarting at dusk 2km out and thankful I didn't have a luff sleeve full of water to deal with) as well as easy depower and more manoeuvrable.

4. That speed increases gained from slalom sails might not be so great in rough water.

5. That freerace boards will probably be just as fast as a slalom board in rough water. (The trouble is finding them in small sizes)

6. That the expense of carbon fins might be worth it.

7. I should try to find a Patrik Slalom 87

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Shifu said..
So what I'm getting from all this is:

1. It's not necessarily the case that a camless freeride sail is going to cause too many problems on a slalom board, and in fact can be more than OK.

2. That there are a number of slalom baords with a track record of going fine under camless sails.

3. That most of us agree that a camless sails are preferable on rough waters if simply for the ease of waterstarting (many times I have been waterstarting at dusk 2km out and thankful I didn't have a luff sleeve full of water to deal with) as well as easy depower and more manoeuvrable.

4. That speed increases gained from slalom sails might not be so great in rough water.

5. That freerace boards will probably be just as fast as a slalom board in rough water. (The trouble is finding them in small sizes)

6. That the expense of carbon fins might be worth it.

7. I should try to find a Patrik Slalom 87

Having said all that you might want to compromise and consider a 1-cam or 2-cam sail. For example a Point-7 ACZ two cams. It is really not harder to sail than their ACX, the cams are below the boom and the sleeve does not fill with water, and it has most of the advantages of a cam sail. The ones left out in your list: more stable (especially in chop), better glide, and better upwind.

I have a 6.8 ACZ, and getting a 5.8 ACZ when my ACX 6.0 gives up the ghost point-7.com/zero-22-overview/acz-022/?q=%2Fzero-22-overview%2Facz-022%2F&v=7516fd43adaa

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MHSA said..
What size sails and what size slalom board are you thinking?

Theres a big difference in cut-outs sizes between the 62 wide small boards and the 72 wide medium boards

Agreed, small slalom boards dont have the same cutouts. They are designed with control in mind more than the larger ones, a bit more 'v', narrower tails etc. Yesterday here a lady used a Fanatic Falcon 99l/62cm with a 6.2m Sailworks Revo, 5 batten large wave/freeride sail. She is light, skilled, retired so no spring chicken, and a good gyber, good planing gybes. Poole Harbour is basically flat with short chop, she doesnt sail on the open sea, which is sheltered a one of the spots. I think its her medium sized board, and sometimes uses it with a 6.5m Retro, her largest sail. No doubt she would go faster with a full-on slalom sail, or freerace 2-3 cam, but isnt interested in that.
Looking through Fanatics archive, I guess it is a 2017 model. The straps arent extremely positioned way outboard on the rail, like the larger boards, so easier to get your feet in and out. There is a good supply of small slalom boards around here as sponsored sailors sell them off yearly and there isnt a large market for them.
I've always sailed on the sea as well as harbour and prefer something more allround in sub 100l sizes, and something not built down to a low weight.
I am sometimes tempted by another small slalom board, but would get a 6-6.5m 3 cam freerace sail as well, as a fast alpha is just as important as top speed. Sod getting a full-on slalom sail, I compared weight and rotation of a Duotone 6.4 slalom foil sail against my 6.5m Ezzy Lion. I couldnt get the Duotone to rotate

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Shifu said..

6. That the expense of carbon fins might be worth it.

I'm not sure about the smaller sizes, but my F-Hot 40cm I bought secondhand is way superior to other 'carbon' fins. My Drake DW and Slalom 8 were ok for the money, but the F-Hot hardly ever spins out. I have just bought a Select S-Max 37cm which seems ok, but is stiffer at the tip and doesnt quite have the same lift as the F-Hot even allowing for size. Shame the F-Hot is too large for my new board.

ps The F-Hot is easier to control on flat water when overpowered, on the sea it gets too lively when the heat is on. I guess smaller F-Hot fins are designed with control more in mind.

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PhilUK said..
as a fast alpha is just as important as top speed.

Yes. This resonates with me.

No cams on slalom boards is the best fun you'll ever have!

What a fully (3-4) cambered sail does happens when you go deep off the wind; they can keep the juice in the sail whilst a no-cam just immediately depowers. When you enter the gybe on a no-cam you can feel it decelerate in your hands as you bear away whereas the cambered sails can hold on to that power and if you do a good tuck (or laydown) you can lock the pressure on the front of the board and keep the speed up and board locked the whole way through a gybe.

That speed in entry and acceleration out of a gybe is KEY to racing hence why all race sails have lots of cams but Andrea (and others in this thread) are correct there is NO speed top speed benefit getting cams. No cam sails break less masts, are easier to rig, much more fun to jump.

Here's my tips for no-cams:

1) Get the best mast you can afford. It makes a huge difference to the windrange. Putting 100% carbon masts in them will give you better control in gusts and get planing earlier since they are lighter (it's not just for race sails). There's less downhaul on no-cam sails you shouldn't break masts with them. RDMs are fine in smaller sizes as well.

2) Take all the money you saved on the sail and get a great fin.

Racing at Safety Bay i simply could not make the buoys that were positioned around 30 degrees off the wind with my Patrik 5.6 4 cam race sail albeit when the wind was blowing above 20 knots I had to sail upwind 50 to 100 metres past the buoy then add another gybe.

The low end power of the sail even with lots of downhaul had me backing off on the reaches bigtime.

Now if the chop there was not so insanely rough i am sure i could have sailed much deeper off the wind.

Initiating a gybe the high low end power of the sail made it extra hard to gybe without good technique.

On a positive i was able to get going quickly after the gybe.

After one Saturday i ended up 5 kilometers upwind near Port Kennedy beach in around 25 knots of wind.

No amount of downhaul was going to get me back downwind on my 100 litre Tabou Speedster and 31 Speed weed

A kind passerby drove me back. He measured 7 kilometres plus from memory driving around the bay.

Had i been on a 5.6 no cam that day - maybe i could have made it back.

I now only sail there with a much flatter 4 cam 2008 5.4 Aerotec when the wind is above 18 knots and i was able to make every buoy with a bit to spare and also sheet in on the reaches in the gusts giving me a lot more speed.

There are lots of recreational sailiors there who use wave sails and unlike the river they keep up to speed with the fast slalom sailors - or close to it.

I hate no cams for the river - when you enter a lull you lose so much low end power and therefore speed.

A smaller board with a super narrow tail also helps to kill the power - which adds to the fun.

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SeanAUS120 said..
No cams on slalom boards is the best fun you'll ever have!

What a fully (3-4) cambered sail does happens when you go deep off the wind; they can keep the juice in the sail whilst a no-cam just immediately depowers. When you enter the gybe on a no-cam you can feel it decelerate in your hands as you bear away whereas the cambered sails can hold on to that power and if you do a good tuck (or laydown) you can lock the pressure on the front of the board and keep the speed up and board locked the whole way through a gybe.

That speed in entry and acceleration out of a gybe is KEY to racing hence why all race sails have lots of cams but Andrea (and others in this thread) are correct there is NO speed top speed benefit getting cams. No cam sails break less masts, are easier to rig, much more fun to jump.

Here's my tips for no-cams:

1) Get the best mast you can afford. It makes a huge difference to the windrange. Putting 100% carbon masts in them will give you better control in gusts and get planing earlier since they are lighter (it's not just for race sails). There's less downhaul on no-cam sails you shouldn't break masts with them. RDMs are fine in smaller sizes as well.

2) Take all the money you saved on the sail and get a great fin.

Great jump..

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Shifu said..
So what I'm getting from all this is:

1. It's not necessarily the case that a camless freeride sail is going to cause too many problems on a slalom board, and in fact can be more than OK.

2. That there are a number of slalom baords with a track record of going fine under camless sails.

3. That most of us agree that a camless sails are preferable on rough waters if simply for the ease of waterstarting (many times I have been waterstarting at dusk 2km out and thankful I didn't have a luff sleeve full of water to deal with) as well as easy depower and more manoeuvrable.

4. That speed increases gained from slalom sails might not be so great in rough water.

5. That freerace boards will probably be just as fast as a slalom board in rough water. (The trouble is finding them in small sizes)

6. That the expense of carbon fins might be worth it.

7. I should try to find a Patrik Slalom 87

Facts are - Higher end Slalom gear is more $
Boards are designed to accelerate faster ,more volume in the tail area to stay on plane through gybes.
High end Slalom sails are designed to hold and exit higher strength wind
You will get planning quicker with a Severne turbo 7m and easier to sail and more forgiving than a Mach racing sail 7m
The Mach will be ok in 30 knots / the Turbo will be overpowered
Andy ??????????

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Facts are - Higher end Slalom gear is more $
Boards are designed to accelerate faster ,more volume in the tail area to stay on plane through gybes.
High end Slalom sails are designed to hold and exit higher strength wind
You will get planning quicker with a Severne turbo 7m and easier to sail and more forgiving than a Mach racing sail 7m
The Mach will be ok in 30 knots / the Turbo will be overpowered
Andy ??????????

I agree
While it's great a sailor as excellent as Andrea Cucci compared non cam with cammed for speed is when fully powered. Early planing is probably the more interesting test for the average user though.

Often I'll be free riding on a 6.5 ncx and 100l board moderately powered when similar sized slalom guys are on 7.8 and 115 medium boards Max power

Sure the 7.8 slalom is alot quicker in that example. But in these conditions the guy on a 6.6 slalom sail is really underpowered and actually slower and later planing than the 6.5 camless sail. In those conditions the small race sail just isn't getting enough juice to do its thing while the camless sail is going fine.

So it's hard to compare a full blown race sail and a camless freerace sail in the same size unless you are very skilled and can easily push the camless sail to its absolute top end.

Full race kit is faster on all points in the hands of a pro. I'm not a pro and won't get the most out of my kit so I have gone for what's comfy & thus fastest for me. If I can head out to my fave speed spot and get top 5 speeds on all points and huge distance AND do it again the next day cos I'm not physically toasted then the easier kit is fast enough and more funner because of easy peasy on my body. The fast guys there are on race sails but I'm close enough to be happy. Too old to worry too.

The newer race sails from Severne are so lightweight that there is no reason for not using full on race sails anymore. Better low-end and better top-end, with the weight of a free-race sail. I love it! :)

A few times riding the '12 Ezzy Cheetah on the '18 Horue Tiny 110L. Horue promotes it as the "original" compact slalom board. 2010 design that was tweaked in 2015 with a reinforced foil deep tuttle box. Works fine once I figured out the ideal mast base position. Probably just not maxing the potential top speed of the board. Significant speed improvement over the freeride board with the same sail. But the freeride board is a slow board. RRD FireMove 100L.

I've just read this comment from Craig@Fanatic and reminded about this thread. I think Craig's comment is spot on and gives an expert explanation on the topic.
forum.fanatic.com/d/27923-falcon-with-freerace-sail-gunsails-vector

"Hi Dom, FreeRace or even no cam sails work ok on Falcons, that it not a problem, especially if you are riding underpowered, as they usually have a lot of back hand pressure and get planing earlier than pure race sails. Overpowered can be an issue, as they do not have the same control/locked in feel of a race sail. But a Freerace sail is more than close enough to work well, you'll have better low end and less control than a pure race sail, for most average riders who use smaller sails anyway, this is more than ok."

Yoo-hoo, used formula board with regular sails. The only issue was that the fin was massive. A smaller fin made it very free ridable