For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

Has been a few years since I've done this so take it how you will, but when I've tried freeride sails on slalom gear it felt awkward.

the issue was i needed more power to fully engage the rail when gybing or when fully lit in rough water to hold the board down. The other thing was when getting into outboard straps I needed more power to hang off the rig.

i don't think it's a cam v camless thing. more that camless freeride sails tend to have less shape than cam'd sails or at least less power. Ymmv tho.
Depends on lots of factors, especially the sail. my 7.2m simmer vmax has bucket loads of power and really engages the board to the water so I don't have the issue. I have no doubt other freerace sails would be similar.

some of the point 7 freerace sails look very grunty.

I reckon try a bunch. I do a lot of experimentation myself. Some odd gear works, others doesn't. Mind you, I use boards and sail sizes a lot smaller than you guys on the east coast. The two gulfs are frinkin windy. Pulls the skin off a custard tart etc.

What size sails and what size slalom board are you thinking?

Theres a big difference in cut-outs sizes between the 62 wide small boards and the 72 wide medium boards

didn't point 7 release a video comparing top speeds on their three slalom sails one with no cam?

l don't think theres anything wrong with running a cheetah on a slalom board ,you just may not be able
to take the board to its top speed ,I use my lions on my Isonic's because i have to gybe a lot ,sometimes
it feels as though i could be pushing the board faster ,so i just go out a bit overpowered ,I use a 6,0 cheetah
on my slalom boards in WA ,because its choppy .I can concentrate on keeping the board down but do sacrifice
top end speed but have a better time ,I've had some great days on this 92 and 6,0 cheetah ,also use the 7 lion on it ,

Hey Shifu,

Have you thought about getting a freerace board which is basically a detuned more user friendly version of a (same brand) slalom board? Likely would work better with your Cheetahs too and be more forgiving than a pure slalom board with pretty good speed potential.

Fyi I've used no-cam KA Koyotes for many years and also use KA Koncept 3 cam sails which are supposedly the freerace sail in KA's lineup (as would be the Ezzy Lions), though tbh wouldn't choose no-cams if wanting more flat water speed, though I do like the handling of the no-cam sails over rough water and in the turns but they just don't have the stability and wind range of the cammed sails

Is it the case then, when step gybing, a fully cammed race sail will continue to press the nose down during the carve (rig flip)?

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Tardy said..
l don't think theres anything wrong with running a cheetah on a slalom board ,you just may not be able
to take the board to its top speed ,I use my lions on my Isonic's because i have to gybe a lot ,sometimes
it feels as though i could be pushing the board faster ,so i just go out a bit overpowered ,I use a 6,0 cheetah
on my slalom boards in WA ,because its choppy .I can concentrate on keeping the board down but do sacrifice
top end speed but have a better time ,I've had some great days on this 92 and 6,0 cheetah ,also use the 7 lion on it ,

Those Patricks are a hoot and very easy to use. It would probably be happy with a wave sail.

It s still hard on the ankles when its choppy jn1 ,I've had to put it away a few times ,i use no -cam when its choppy ,then use the cam sails when its flatter ,and looking for PB ,
Its a little rocket ,, so much fun on it .If its just **** and a mess I will grab my 105 Rocket ,its like riding on a carpet .
Shifu ,no cam sails de-power quicker so easier to Gybe and the race sails will carry more power through the Gybe for sure
thats what ya need when your racing ,new slalom board are nice to use ,control has been the focus on most Slalom boards these days
Tabou's designer talks about it in his interviews ,more control has been their focus as Starboard ,I have a 67 Isonic ,I don't think a good free rider like yourself would have any trouble riding it ,its so controllable and nice to use ,I don't race I just like going fast
I like Gazmans idea of F Race Boards ,but once you've felt the speed of a Full slalom race board it hard to go back ,I don't think your a bit crazy for wanting one ,

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Shifu said..
Is it the case then, when step gybing, a fully cammed race sail will continue to press the nose down during the carve (rig flip)?

TBH I've experienced fin spin-out going into gybes on flat water many many times using no-cam freeride sails (on a Rocket 95) but since changing to cammed freerace sails it hasn't happened to me once on flat water (mind you I'm on a different board now since the Rocket died) so imo cammed sails do appear to keep pushing forward, assuming you have the ability to be able to keep driving into and through the turn particularly over choppy water. Like Tardy says the no-cam sails have their strengths compared to the cammed sails, just need to get used to whatever gear you choose!

Imo different brand boards respond differently to sail types used so worth asking around which brand slalom boards would match up well with no-cam sails, tho not all no-cam sails are equal, some being more freerace biased than freeride. A guy here uses a Tabou Manta 59 with a 6.5 NCX and appears to go really well.

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Shifu said..
For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

I have been using Point-7 ACX 5.8/6.0/6.5/7.5 with my slalom boards since 2017, coming from HSM GPS (three cams) 6.0/6.6/7.3 and Loft Switchblade (three cams) 7.2. Carbon Art 52 and 58 2008 (no cut outs), Isonic 111 2008 (cut outs), AV Modena 60 and 62 2022/23, Futura 71 2022 and Patrik 125 2017 all with cut outs.

Speed wise it made no difference, but I never brake above 30-31 knots in the local conditions. Across the wind and downwind the ACX takes the Modena boards into 6th gear with ease. Jibes are way easier, stability is good, but my ACZ 6.8 is better when chop increases. Tha ACX moves a little bit and takes some more concentration, the ACZ feels like being on a train. Low end is fine, but sustained traction in a lull was better with the Switchblade and is better with the ACZ. Upwind the cammed sails are better, especially in chop. Pretty much as predicted ...

I do not know about the Cheeta, which is not really a "freerace" sail, but you probably are going to be fine. Just a bit slower overall, but easier to manage out and in the water. I would not care too much about control, the new shorter boards are way easier to "control" than the older shapes. There is no comparison between my CA 58/250 and my AV Modena 62/230.

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duzzi said..

Shifu said..
For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

I have been using Point-7 ACX 5.8/6.0/6.5/7.5 with my slalom boards since 2017, coming from HSM GPS (three cams) 6.0/6.6/7.3 and Loft Switchblade (three cams) 7.2. Carbon Art 52 and 58 2008 (no cut outs), Isonic 111 2008 (cut outs), AV Modena 60 and 62 2022/23, Futura 71 2022 and Patrik 125 2017 all with cut outs.

Speed wise it made no difference, but I never brake above 30-31 knots in the local conditions. Across the wind and downwind the ACX takes the Modena boards into 6th gear with ease. Jibes are way easier, stability is good, but my ACZ 6.8 is better when chop increases. Tha ACX moves a little bit and takes some more concentration, the ACZ feels like being on a train. Low end is fine, but sustained traction in a lull was better with the Switchblade and is better with the ACZ. Upwind the cammed sails are better, especially in chop. Pretty much as predicted ...

I do not know about the Cheeta, which is not really a "freerace" sail, but you probably are going to be fine. Just a bit slower overall, but easier to manage out and in the water. I would not care too much about control, the new shorter boards are way easier to "control" than the older shapes. There is no comparison between my CA 58/250 and my AV Modena 62/230.

What are your conditions? If you are planing with a 7.0 it's hard NOT to do 30 + knots isn't it?

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sheddweller said..

duzzi said..

Shifu said..
For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

I have been using Point-7 ACX 5.8/6.0/6.5/7.5 with my slalom boards since 2017, coming from HSM GPS (three cams) 6.0/6.6/7.3 and Loft Switchblade (three cams) 7.2. Carbon Art 52 and 58 2008 (no cut outs), Isonic 111 2008 (cut outs), AV Modena 60 and 62 2022/23, Futura 71 2022 and Patrik 125 2017 all with cut outs.

Speed wise it made no difference, but I never brake above 30-31 knots in the local conditions. Across the wind and downwind the ACX takes the Modena boards into 6th gear with ease. Jibes are way easier, stability is good, but my ACZ 6.8 is better when chop increases. Tha ACX moves a little bit and takes some more concentration, the ACZ feels like being on a train. Low end is fine, but sustained traction in a lull was better with the Switchblade and is better with the ACZ. Upwind the cammed sails are better, especially in chop. Pretty much as predicted ...

I do not know about the Cheeta, which is not really a "freerace" sail, but you probably are going to be fine. Just a bit slower overall, but easier to manage out and in the water. I would not care too much about control, the new shorter boards are way easier to "control" than the older shapes. There is no comparison between my CA 58/250 and my AV Modena 62/230.

What are your conditions? If you are planing with a 7.0 it's hard NOT to do 30 + knots isn't it?

Depends on how bad the chop is..

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sheddweller said..

duzzi said..

Shifu said..
For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

I have been using Point-7 ACX 5.8/6.0/6.5/7.5 with my slalom boards since 2017, coming from HSM GPS (three cams) 6.0/6.6/7.3 and Loft Switchblade (three cams) 7.2. Carbon Art 52 and 58 2008 (no cut outs), Isonic 111 2008 (cut outs), AV Modena 60 and 62 2022/23, Futura 71 2022 and Patrik 125 2017 all with cut outs.

Speed wise it made no difference, but I never brake above 30-31 knots in the local conditions. Across the wind and downwind the ACX takes the Modena boards into 6th gear with ease. Jibes are way easier, stability is good, but my ACZ 6.8 is better when chop increases. Tha ACX moves a little bit and takes some more concentration, the ACZ feels like being on a train. Low end is fine, but sustained traction in a lull was better with the Switchblade and is better with the ACZ. Upwind the cammed sails are better, especially in chop. Pretty much as predicted ...

I do not know about the Cheeta, which is not really a "freerace" sail, but you probably are going to be fine. Just a bit slower overall, but easier to manage out and in the water. I would not care too much about control, the new shorter boards are way easier to "control" than the older shapes. There is no comparison between my CA 58/250 and my AV Modena 62/230.

What are your conditions? If you are planing with a 7.0 it's hard NOT to do 30 + knots isn't it?

Rough open bay conditions. 10+ nm of fetch in all directions. Chop on swell. Sometimes very challenging.

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sboardcrazy said..

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..

Shifu said..
For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

I have been using Point-7 ACX 5.8/6.0/6.5/7.5 with my slalom boards since 2017, coming from HSM GPS (three cams) 6.0/6.6/7.3 and Loft Switchblade (three cams) 7.2. Carbon Art 52 and 58 2008 (no cut outs), Isonic 111 2008 (cut outs), AV Modena 60 and 62 2022/23, Futura 71 2022 and Patrik 125 2017 all with cut outs.

Speed wise it made no difference, but I never brake above 30-31 knots in the local conditions. Across the wind and downwind the ACX takes the Modena boards into 6th gear with ease. Jibes are way easier, stability is good, but my ACZ 6.8 is better when chop increases. Tha ACX moves a little bit and takes some more concentration, the ACZ feels like being on a train. Low end is fine, but sustained traction in a lull was better with the Switchblade and is better with the ACZ. Upwind the cammed sails are better, especially in chop. Pretty much as predicted ...

I do not know about the Cheeta, which is not really a "freerace" sail, but you probably are going to be fine. Just a bit slower overall, but easier to manage out and in the water. I would not care too much about control, the new shorter boards are way easier to "control" than the older shapes. There is no comparison between my CA 58/250 and my AV Modena 62/230.

What are your conditions? If you are planing with a 7.0 it's hard NOT to do 30 + knots isn't it?

Depends on how bad the chop is..

San Francisco Bay Area: lots and lots and lots of chop, no speed strip. The best speeds ever reliably recorded are around 33 knots/10".

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

sboardcrazy said..

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..

Shifu said..
For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

I have been using Point-7 ACX 5.8/6.0/6.5/7.5 with my slalom boards since 2017, coming from HSM GPS (three cams) 6.0/6.6/7.3 and Loft Switchblade (three cams) 7.2. Carbon Art 52 and 58 2008 (no cut outs), Isonic 111 2008 (cut outs), AV Modena 60 and 62 2022/23, Futura 71 2022 and Patrik 125 2017 all with cut outs.

Speed wise it made no difference, but I never brake above 30-31 knots in the local conditions. Across the wind and downwind the ACX takes the Modena boards into 6th gear with ease. Jibes are way easier, stability is good, but my ACZ 6.8 is better when chop increases. Tha ACX moves a little bit and takes some more concentration, the ACZ feels like being on a train. Low end is fine, but sustained traction in a lull was better with the Switchblade and is better with the ACZ. Upwind the cammed sails are better, especially in chop. Pretty much as predicted ...

I do not know about the Cheeta, which is not really a "freerace" sail, but you probably are going to be fine. Just a bit slower overall, but easier to manage out and in the water. I would not care too much about control, the new shorter boards are way easier to "control" than the older shapes. There is no comparison between my CA 58/250 and my AV Modena 62/230.

What are your conditions? If you are planing with a 7.0 it's hard NOT to do 30 + knots isn't it?

Depends on how bad the chop is..

San Francisco Bay Area: lots and lots and lots of chop, no speed strip. The best speeds ever reliably recorded are around 33 knots/10".

Ah ok, the kind of chop that makes my knees hurt just thinking about it!

Select to expand quote

Shifu said..

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..

Shifu said..
For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

I have been using Point-7 ACX 5.8/6.0/6.5/7.5 with my slalom boards since 2017, coming from HSM GPS (three cams) 6.0/6.6/7.3 and Loft Switchblade (three cams) 7.2. Carbon Art 52 and 58 2008 (no cut outs), Isonic 111 2008 (cut outs), AV Modena 60 and 62 2022/23, Futura 71 2022 and Patrik 125 2017 all with cut outs.

Speed wise it made no difference, but I never brake above 30-31 knots in the local conditions. Across the wind and downwind the ACX takes the Modena boards into 6th gear with ease. Jibes are way easier, stability is good, but my ACZ 6.8 is better when chop increases. Tha ACX moves a little bit and takes some more concentration, the ACZ feels like being on a train. Low end is fine, but sustained traction in a lull was better with the Switchblade and is better with the ACZ. Upwind the cammed sails are better, especially in chop. Pretty much as predicted ...

I do not know about the Cheeta, which is not really a "freerace" sail, but you probably are going to be fine. Just a bit slower overall, but easier to manage out and in the water. I would not care too much about control, the new shorter boards are way easier to "control" than the older shapes. There is no comparison between my CA 58/250 and my AV Modena 62/230.

What are your conditions? If you are planing with a 7.0 it's hard NOT to do 30 + knots isn't it?

Rough open bay conditions. 10+ nm of fetch in all directions. Chop on swell. Sometimes very challenging.

Shifu, try to track down a Windtech Silver Bullet 57 or 64 as they handle rough water brilliantly and are still quick on the flat stuff!

Are you still sailing mainly Redcliffe ? if so why would you want a slalom board there?
Don't worry about the sail discussion ...Slalom board in bumpy Redcliffe ....no thanks :)

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JonesySail said..
Are you still sailing mainly Redcliffe ? if so why would you want a slalom board there?
Don't worry about the sail discussion ...Slalom board in bumpy Redcliffe ....no thanks :)

Because I've pushed my freeride and freerace boards to the limit (I think).

The smoothest slalom board ive ever been on by far is the Patrik 87.

The tail is much narrower than the old Sonic 87 which helps it carve with little pressure on the rail.

The rails are super soft and tucked with lots of nose and tail rocker.

The downside - if you try and gybe in non planing wind or light wind it sinks fast - real fast actually.

The old Sonic 87 by 243 long with its much wider tail and nose i had much better balance in gybes in the lighter stuff.

The Patrik 92 and 100 feel like dedicated slalom boards to me. Opposite in design to the 87.

The 87 is built for a storm and feels as safe downwind in heavy chop as a small Tabou Rocket.

Warning however - you need to be real light to use this board or wait till there's a consistent 25 knots if you are heavy.

Super fun board to sail like no other.

A scaled up 100 litre version with identical design would be a best seller.

It's not that rough...

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GazMan said..

Shifu said..

sheddweller said..

duzzi said..

Shifu said..
For a while I've had the impression that we shouldn't combine camless freeride sails with modern slalom boards that have deep cutouts and short lengths. Apparently, the movement of the centre of effort in a camless sail will upset the trim of a board with cutouts, causing control issues - especially as lengths are so short now.

Is this really the case? I like my camless sails but would like to uses faster boards. I have a nice 2008 Falcon 89 (long and no cutouts) that goes quite well under my Ezzy Cheetahs, but am wondering about newer slalom boards all of which have cutouts.

I have been using Point-7 ACX 5.8/6.0/6.5/7.5 with my slalom boards since 2017, coming from HSM GPS (three cams) 6.0/6.6/7.3 and Loft Switchblade (three cams) 7.2. Carbon Art 52 and 58 2008 (no cut outs), Isonic 111 2008 (cut outs), AV Modena 60 and 62 2022/23, Futura 71 2022 and Patrik 125 2017 all with cut outs.

Speed wise it made no difference, but I never brake above 30-31 knots in the local conditions. Across the wind and downwind the ACX takes the Modena boards into 6th gear with ease. Jibes are way easier, stability is good, but my ACZ 6.8 is better when chop increases. Tha ACX moves a little bit and takes some more concentration, the ACZ feels like being on a train. Low end is fine, but sustained traction in a lull was better with the Switchblade and is better with the ACZ. Upwind the cammed sails are better, especially in chop. Pretty much as predicted ...

I do not know about the Cheeta, which is not really a "freerace" sail, but you probably are going to be fine. Just a bit slower overall, but easier to manage out and in the water. I would not care too much about control, the new shorter boards are way easier to "control" than the older shapes. There is no comparison between my CA 58/250 and my AV Modena 62/230.

What are your conditions? If you are planing with a 7.0 it's hard NOT to do 30 + knots isn't it?

Rough open bay conditions. 10+ nm of fetch in all directions. Chop on swell. Sometimes very challenging.

Shifu, try to track down a Windtech Silver Bullet 57 or 64 as they handle rough water brilliantly and are still quick on the flat stuff!

Plus 1. My profile pic is me on the WT 57. So much fun doing powered bearaways down the chop. Suspension for old knees.Lively but very easy to sail.

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Shifu said..
It's not that rough...

True.

Were you there when vando took his speed board out at suttons

Pozo

Hey Shifu ,just a Question are you looking for more speed ? If so how much more speed do you want ,
looking at your picture ,I would be using a 105 Rocket in that ,the haul will behave ,then just chuck a race sail engine on if blistering speed is required or lion ,which is a couple of knots faster than the Cheetah ,

More speed.

The conditions in the picture were 4.x wave conditions for which I would typically use my 80 litre acid. a 105 would be far too big. The video below is more illustrative of what I'm wanting to improve in.

For strong winds around 25kts I use an Exocet Cross 84 (57 wide), with circa 29cm slalom fin and 5.5 Cheetah, or 5m or 4.xm wave sails. Typically, with a 25 kt Southeaster, low tide, some good swells and the Cheetah 5.5, I can reliably run at over 28 knots with occasional 30knot 2sec. I'd like to get another knot or two and get a few more 30 kt sessions and also add a bit more to my alphas. My record alpha at Redcliffe is 21.7 - I'd like to get into the 22s.

Start the video at 3:29 (our forum does not seem to allow custom start links). Shows what conditions are like inside the reef at Queens beach in a good SSE. This me on the Cross 84 and Cheetah 5.5. Not a great gybe, but nevertheless... Once you sail past the end of the reef things start to get really wild - I spend a lot of time sailing to windward in gnarly conditions.

Start at 3:30 (the first part is my mate Roger wavesailing) Top speed was 28.7 and alpha 20.5 (not this run which is too upwind for speed).
?t=240

yep clear , I'd be going for a small Slalom board

hi Shifu, the advantage of a no cam slalom sail like the Point7 ACX is that you can use it on many more occasions, if you are not a PWA pro a cam sail is more difficult to manage in case of big chop or waves, the waterstart is more complicated due the water that enters the mast sleave while with the ACX there is no problem. It is true that a sail with camber in gybe pushes better and makes you turn with more constant power and is more stable in overpower conditions than a no cam sail but these differences are quite little; on the other hand the no cam is lighter, easy to depower when it has too much power and you can match it with many more boards; I have personally used the ACX with Fanatic freewave, RRD Firestorm, Exocet Cross, RS2 and RS3 and the sail has always guaranteed excellent speed with both pointer and delta fins. If you are not interested in a burning acceleration to arrive first at the mark and start again like a rocket but you just want a sail that makes you go very fast this is definitely the one for you. As Duzzi says there is also the ACZ which is wonderful but only 5.2 and 5.8 use RDM mast wich I personaly love. Here is the comparative video made by Cucchi

as you can see in terms of pure speed the difference is minimal

Yes, I will stick with my no-cams. When the chips are down in rough water they look after you best.