Select to expand quote

sanded said..

Gestalt said..

sheddweller said..

Gestalt said..
would you buy a board built without sandwich construction

Yea if price was right.
A few friends have built and sailed single skin wave boards cos it was cheap and quick and they wanted to try something different out. Good groundswell conditions, good level sailors, lasted a couple of years.

the next boards build will include a sandwich but after that i'm going to have a crack at a wave board idea and get someone whos a much better sailor than me to push it. i like the feel through the turns through with my single skin board which was a surprise so i'd like to take this idea further

I reckon have a go! I have an idea for a hand lam'ed wave board using basalt and doing it differently using eps with a structured expanding eps foam we developed on the deck - instead of a sandwich construction

When get a chance/ time to do it we might post it up here as we go along.. this could be a way for backyardies to make a board with single skins instead of the vac bag sandwich route.. just need the time to play around..

That would be epic! Love to have your experience on the forums and keen to see your build

I really like the basalt cloth you guys have. Very easy to work with.

Hi, i'am a franch mechanical engineering teacher and a 35 years garage board builder, my main hobby. Build surf, sup, kite, foil, windsurf, try all kind of build tech and materials. All "big brands" have single skin in their catalogue. Starboard starlite, fanatic HRS, rrd e-tech, tabou MTE, etc.. all are light eps, fiberglass, resin (some use foaming one), some wood veneer under foot, some use thin asa skin over lire all bic/tahe for years.
With eps 20 to 25 kg/m3, stringer with UD cap hand lam multiaxial fiber bottom lap on rail then some kind of sandwich deck, you can made a board that do the job, not the stronger, not the lighter, but easier to build correctly. French seaclone do custom monolithic speed and wave boards with linen hand lam over eps stringered blank. Far cheaper than his sandwich boards. From what i know users are happy with his boards.
A small, old trick, is to volumized (foamed) lam resin by adding around 30% (volume) of glass microsphere. With 3 layers of 4 oz open plain wave glass well saturated you can be surprise.

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..

jontyh said..
no. I made a few (4) which were useful to try odd shapes that nobody was making, but they were heavy. I put my heel through one, (deck pad, veneer, glass the lot) and creased another. My next one(s) will be sandwich once i learn to vac bag.

this is my biggest concern.

what density eps did you use?

28kg/m-3, which is known as eps200, at least in the uk. For surfboards it has been fine.

With the final board (so far) i put in a 15mm (3x5mm laminated) pvc stringer, mainly to widen the blank and hopefully stiffen it, and more importantly a carbon strip on the bottom to prevent creasing. I routed out a 5mm deep disc under my front jump side foot-strap, and sandwiched 5mm pvc, and 4oz glass, so a mini sandwich. This board has held up ok, but i got a flikka custom, so it hasn't had as much use.

Select to expand quote

jontyh said..

Gestalt said..

jontyh said..
no. I made a few (4) which were useful to try odd shapes that nobody was making, but they were heavy. I put my heel through one, (deck pad, veneer, glass the lot) and creased another. My next one(s) will be sandwich once i learn to vac bag.

this is my biggest concern.

what density eps did you use?

28kg/m-3, which is known as eps200, at least in the uk. For surfboards it has been fine.

thx

Select to expand quote

jontyh said..
With the final board (so far) i put in a 15mm (3x5mm laminated) pvc stringer, mainly to widen the blank and hopefully stiffen it, and more importantly a carbon strip on the bottom to prevent creasing. I routed out a 5mm deep disc under my front jump side foot-strap, and sandwiched 5mm pvc, and 4oz glass, so a mini sandwich. This board has held up ok, but i got a flikka custom, so it hasn't had as much use.

Sounds like the right approach. I'm heading down the same path with my current build but testing lighter foam.

its not a wave board tho.

Select to expand quote

lemat said..
Hi, i'am a franch mechanical engineering teacher and a 35 years garage board builder, my main hobby. Build surf, sup, kite, foil, windsurf, try all kind of build tech and materials. All "big brands" have single skin in their catalogue. Starboard starlite, fanatic HRS, rrd e-tech, tabou MTE, etc.. all are light eps, fiberglass, resin (some use foaming one), some wood veneer under foot, some use thin asa skin over lire all bic/tahe for years.
With eps 20 to 25 kg/m3, stringer with UD cap hand lam multiaxial fiber bottom lap on rail then some kind of sandwich deck, you can made a board that do the job, not the stronger, not the lighter, but easier to build correctly. French seaclone do custom monolithic speed and wave boards with linen hand lam over eps stringered blank. Far cheaper than his sandwich boards. From what i know users are happy with his boards.
A small, old trick, is to volumized (foamed) lam resin by adding around 30% (volume) of glass microsphere. With 3 layers of 4 oz open plain wave glass well saturated you can be surprise.

Great post thx.
have not heard of sea clone. Looks like they already onto it.

im Using additives a lot now. Structural fillers and or fairing fillers depending on use. To be honest while I weigh the resin I just add fillers on the fly by eye.

I read a white paper a while back but can't find it again testing fillers to improve strength. I'm using aerosil and microfibers currently. Do you have any thoughts on alternatives

Same as you: glass microsphere for volumize/lightening; silica for gelify and keep resin where i want, microfibers for strengh.

www.seacloneboards.com/histoire/

Select to expand quote

lemat said..
Same as you: glass microsphere for volumize/lightening; silica for gelify and keep resin where i want, microfibers for strengh.

i'm looking to use milled fiber in the next board build. The stuff that sanded has on his website.

i've been deep diving into white papers on milled fibers and cobalt ferrite nanoparticles which both show measurable improvements when used in epoxy so keen to experiment.

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said.. >>> my pu boards back in the day to be soft and sluggish. i still got a speed board in the garage from the early 90's that doesn't suffer from any of those traits. An eps board should not be like that either. so i'm thinking the wrong density foam was used for the build.

i currently sail an eps board built without sandwich and it's stiff and fast. i race friends on similar gear and i'm not slower.

PU blanks were made for board construction. PU is stiffer than eps for the same density.
eps is designed for insulation.
If I was considering this I'd use epx and dispense with the bung.

I once built a hybrid epx board, sandwich on the bottom and behind the mast track, only 3X6ox cloth in front of the mast track, and that dented up like crazy. 2X6oz carbon probably would have been OK.

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..

lemat said..
Same as you: glass microsphere for volumize/lightening; silica for gelify and keep resin where i want, microfibers for strengh.

i'm looking to use milled fiber in the next board build. The stuff that sanded has on his website.

i've been deep diving into white papers on milled fibers and cobalt ferrite nanoparticles which both show measurable improvements when used in epoxy so keen to experiment.

Yes nano particules, glass or carbone (graphen), seem to increase resin mechanical strengh. Something to look. Sandwich allow to increase flexural stiffness by weight ratio a lot, so board is far stiffer with far higher buckling and denting strengh. At same weight single skin, mostly glass fiber hand lam, will be far cheaper, easier to do with a better puncture/ding r?sistance. Volumized single skin by using foamed resin (with foaming agent or microsphere) is an old composit trick often use. Look at 3DX starboard tech, open an HRS fanatic deck, same exocet no sandwich...

So far we have ascertained that cheaper constructions exist - for the beginner and intermediate boards, or people who want a cheap board that either damages more easily or weighs a ton.
I suggest those latter folks are in the minority.... once into fast freeride or waves pretty much everyone wants a sandwich board.

Even in SUP the failures are more pronounced and the weight so much more, in the cheaper constructions.
Wing boards were largely skin over 28kg core, but more and more are moving to sandwich at almost double the price - the consumer wants it as they were sick of the damage.

BUT i dont discourage anyone from having a go, making your own boards is so much fun and rewarding. They can work great in non sandwich constructions, but vac bagging opens up so much to you

I guess a few here will be old enough to remember the Astra Surf, Waitata boards? My first epoxy slalom board, in the early 80's, was a Waitata. 9' x 24" if I remember correctly. Those boards were made in Australia and were EPS core covered with, (I think), mainly chopped strand glass wetted with foaming epoxy resin and enclosed in a mould, reportedly under quite large pressure created by the foaming resin.

As I understand it, the company went on to become AHD (Advanced Hull Dynamics?) and made Slalom, Freeride and Race boards in Australia for a few years. The owner reportedly relocated his business overseas, maybe to the USA first and later to Europe.

In any case, Tom Leudeke was sponsored by AHD in the late 80's and early 90's, and I was able to obtain a few of his used AHD boards around 1989-90. I used a couple in the Victorian Slalom Championship series (which I won in 1991 ). Those boards were the same foamed epoxy resin moulded constrution as the Waitata, and were quite stiff and light. They lasted very well and I still have the 9'6'' version in my shed somewhere. Their one weakness, that I found, was the Tuttle box cavity was simply moulded with the same process, all on one shot, and was subject to damage fairly easily when you struck something with the fin. I did many repairs on mine.

Later, Steve McGeary started the 'Speed' windsurfing board company and acquired the technology off the founder of the aforementioned companies. All those boards were made with EPS cores and no sandwich, were fast and light (quite comparable to the Euro Epoxy raceboards of the time) and generally quite durable. I had a few Speed Slalom and Raceboards and the only issue I had with them was with my first Speed PanAm 250 Raceboard. It was light and stiff but the foaming resin was incomplete along the rail and there were pinholes where it leaked and took on water very quickly. To his high credit, when Steve heard about this he turned up the the next race I entered in Melbourne with a new board for me and took the old one back. I still have that board in my shed too, and it is still sound and fun to ride once in a blue moon. Somewhere I still have Speed 9'4" slalom board too. Maybe I should find it and take it to Lake George this season for a spin around the Lake.

Steve eventually shut down his business, and I heard, sadly, that he was suffering from illness related to the materials he had worked with.

The next related thing I heard that pertains to this topic, is that one of the people already mentioned, I forget who, sold the technology to the founder of 'Extreme', (who I think was Steve Hayden?) who attemped to go into production in Western Victoria - perhaps Ballarat? I got one of the very first Extreme 280 Slalom boards, #2 I think. It actually had a Powerbox and I was not pleased as I had no PB fins and a good collection of Tuttle fins. Before I could even race this board, I heard that he had broken the mould on the 3rd board and given up on the idea of local production. He went to Cobra and got EPS sandwich boards made (with Tuttle boxes. ). There lies the end of Moulded foaming epoxy boards in Australia to the best of my knowlege. (I also still have the #2 280 Extreme and the sandwich 270 from Cobra. )

And yes, I got a Starboard Go for my kids in the 2000's that I believe is also EPS core and Foaming resin skin.

I have always been fascinated with this tec, but it thought it was best suited too Moulding. It would be very interesting indeed to see how it goes with straight laminating (without a mould). The idea is that the foaming of the resin forms a thick, high density rigid skin under the pressurised containment of the mould, that make the board quite stiff and de-lam resistant. How this could be achieved without a mould is the question?

Edit. Ahh! I forgot another angle of this story. At some time in the late 80's or very early 90's, Windrush also experimented with the no sandwich, eps, foaming construction. I dont know how far they got with it, but I did obtain a 6foot 'ish tri fin surfboard made by them with this construction. It was unbelievably strong and tough. They told me I could rap it with a hammer and probably not damage it, and it certainly seemed like that but I was not really game to try it. I sold it to a young bloke who was embarrking on an around Australia surfing safari for a few years, and I recon it would have been just the thing to have rattling around in the back of his ute. I am guessing it would have taken some very heady wipeouts and still come up for more. It's hard to remember exactly now, but I don't believe it was any heavier than a standard custom polyester board of the time.

Perhaps some of our WA readers will know more about this Windrush episode. I thought they had big plans for this tec, but it seemed to disappear quite quickly and I don't think it made it into their windsurfing boards.

Select to expand quote

Mark _australia said..
So far we have ascertained that cheaper constructions exist - for the beginner and intermediate boards, or people who want a cheap board that either damages more easily or weighs a ton.
I suggest those latter folks are in the minority.... once into fast freeride or waves pretty much everyone wants a sandwich board.

Even in SUP the failures are more pronounced and the weight so much more, in the cheaper constructions.
Wing boards were largely skin over 28kg core, but more and more are moving to sandwich at almost double the price - the consumer wants it as they were sick of the damage.

BUT i dont discourage anyone from having a go, making your own boards is so much fun and rewarding. They can work great in non sandwich constructions, but vac bagging opens up so much to you

Here wingboard, surffoil, builder that everyone want make mostly single skin carbon with sometimes some sandwich under foot. Not cheap. For same price there is cheap sandwich, bad build, leak, not more durable... I think "cheap" boards (kite,wing,surffoil, sup, freerider) need at least a kind of sandwich on deck and tough multilayers of fiber on rails. For serious windsurfing, go to well made full sandwich.

Yes foaming resin skin are made in mold. Can be tough for not so much weight. Somewhere between sandwich skin and single skin. Without mold you can use sphertex wich is glass fiber with microsphere embeded. There are other bulker that can be used. You can also add microsphere in lam resin with an appropriate tech for saturated fiber. You can also spread micro between fiber layers.

Select to expand quote

Mark _australia said..
So far we have ascertained that cheaper constructions exist - for the beginner and intermediate boards, or people who want a cheap board that either damages more easily or weighs a ton.
I suggest those latter folks are in the minority.... once into fast freeride or waves pretty much everyone wants a sandwich board.

Even in SUP the failures are more pronounced and the weight so much more, in the cheaper constructions.
Wing boards were largely skin over 28kg core, but more and more are moving to sandwich at almost double the price - the consumer wants it as they were sick of the damage.

BUT i dont discourage anyone from having a go, making your own boards is so much fun and rewarding. They can work great in non sandwich constructions, but vac bagging opens up so much to you

Yes that does appear to be one of the realities.

However, there are also examples that don't fit that narrative. Im keen to understand why. Could be somewhere in the middle is another solution.

Select to expand quote

lemat said..
Yes foaming resin skin are made in mold. Can be tough for not so much weight. Somewhere between sandwich skin and single skin. Without mold you can use sphertex wich is glass fiber with microsphere embeded. There are other bulker that can be used. You can also add microsphere in lam resin with an appropriate tech for saturated fiber. You can also spread micro between fiber layers.

Looks like a great product. I can see uses immediately if it didn't use so much resin. Especially underneath the board when not using a vacuum.

Select to expand quote

jontyh said..
With the final board (so far) i put in a 15mm (3x5mm laminated) pvc stringer, mainly to widen the blank and hopefully stiffen it, and more importantly a carbon strip on the bottom to prevent creasing. I routed out a 5mm deep disc under my front jump side foot-strap, and sandwiched 5mm pvc, and 4oz glass, so a mini sandwich. This board has held up ok, but i got a flikka custom, so it hasn't had as much use.

Jonty did you seal the EPS before laminating?

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..

jontyh said..
With the final board (so far) i put in a 15mm (3x5mm laminated) pvc stringer, mainly to widen the blank and hopefully stiffen it, and more importantly a carbon strip on the bottom to prevent creasing. I routed out a 5mm deep disc under my front jump side foot-strap, and sandwiched 5mm pvc, and 4oz glass, so a mini sandwich. This board has held up ok, but i got a flikka custom, so it hasn't had as much use.

Jonty did you seal the EPS before laminating?

yes, with a thin filler coat of epoxy/micro balloons

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..

lemat said..
Yes foaming resin skin are made in mold. Can be tough for not so much weight. Somewhere between sandwich skin and single skin. Without mold you can use sphertex wich is glass fiber with microsphere embeded. There are other bulker that can be used. You can also add microsphere in lam resin with an appropriate tech for saturated fiber. You can also spread micro between fiber layers.

Looks like a great product. I can see uses immediately if it didn't use so much resin. Especially underneath the board when not using a vacuum.

As all bulker it soak resin but finish at 1/3 density of glass/epoxy and contribute far more to strengh than pvc foam sandwich so you can have tough skin with this product but at same weight will be thinner than foam sandwich so less flexural stiffness. Rico sailboards made hi quality hi perf waveboards with sphertex deck.
Weight resin and saturate on table with tinted resin to see, always look not enough then press on board with compacted roller. Light vacuum is good here too. I often use soric LRC like this.

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..
I guess a few here will be old enough to remember the Astra Surf, Waitata boards? My first epoxy slalom board, in the early 80's, was a Waitata. 9' x 24" if I remember correctly. Those boards were made in Australia and were EPS core covered with, (I think), mainly chopped strand glass wetted with foaming epoxy resin and enclosed in a mould, reportedly under quite large pressure created by the foaming resin.

As I understand it, the company went on to become AHD (Advanced Hull Dynamics?) and made Slalom, Freeride and Race boards in Australia for a few years. The owner reportedly relocated his business overseas, maybe to the USA first and later to Europe.

In any case, Tom Leudeke was sponsored by AHD in the late 80's and early 90's, and I was able to obtain a few of his used AHD boards around 1989-90. I used a couple in the Victorian Slalom Championship series (which I won in 1991 ). Those boards were the same foamed epoxy resin moulded constrution as the Waitata, and were quite stiff and light. They lasted very well and I still have the 9'6'' version in my shed somewhere. Their one weakness, that I found, was the Tuttle box cavity was simply moulded with the same process, all on one shot, and was subject to damage fairly easily when you struck something with the fin. I did many repairs on mine.

Later, Steve McGeary started the 'Speed' windsurfing board company and acquired the technology off the founder of the aforementioned companies. All those boards were made with EPS cores and no sandwich, were fast and light (quite comparable to the Euro Epoxy raceboards of the time) and generally quite durable. I had a few Speed Slalom and Raceboards and the only issue I had with them was with my first Speed PanAm 250 Raceboard. It was light and stiff but the foaming resin was incomplete along the rail and there were pinholes where it leaked and took on water very quickly. To his high credit, when Steve heard about this he turned up the the next race I entered in Melbourne with a new board for me and took the old one back. I still have that board in my shed too, and it is still sound and fun to ride once in a blue moon. Somewhere I still have Speed 9'4" slalom board too. Maybe I should find it and take it to Lake George this season for a spin around the Lake.

Steve eventually shut down his business, and I heard, sadly, that he was suffering from illness related to the materials he had worked with.

The next related thing I heard that pertains to this topic, is that one of the people already mentioned, I forget who, sold the technology to the founder of 'Extreme', (who I think was Steve Hayden?) who attemped to go into production in Western Victoria - perhaps Ballarat? I got one of the very first Extreme 280 Slalom boards, #2 I think. It actually had a Powerbox and I was not pleased as I had no PB fins and a good collection of Tuttle fins. Before I could even race this board, I heard that he had broken the mould on the 3rd board and given up on the idea of local production. He went to Cobra and got EPS sandwich boards made (with Tuttle boxes. ). There lies the end of Moulded foaming epoxy boards in Australia to the best of my knowlege. (I also still have the #2 280 Extreme and the sandwich 270 from Cobra. )

And yes, I got a Starboard Go for my kids in the 2000's that I believe is also EPS core and Foaming resin skin.

I have always been fascinated with this tec, but it thought it was best suited too Moulding. It would be very interesting indeed to see how it goes with straight laminating (without a mould). The idea is that the foaming of the resin forms a thick, high density rigid skin under the pressurised containment of the mould, that make the board quite stiff and de-lam resistant. How this could be achieved without a mould is the question?

Edit. Ahh! I forgot another angle of this story. At some time in the late 80's or very early 90's, Windrush also experimented with the no sandwich, eps, foaming construction. I dont know how far they got with it, but I did obtain a 6foot 'ish tri fin surfboard made by them with this construction. It was unbelievably strong and tough. They told me I could rap it with a hammer and probably not damage it, and it certainly seemed like that but I was not really game to try it. I sold it to a young bloke who was embarrking on an around Australia surfing safari for a few years, and I recon it would have been just the thing to have rattling around in the back of his ute. I am guessing it would have taken some very heady wipeouts and still come up for more. It's hard to remember exactly now, but I don't believe it was any heavier than a standard custom polyester board of the time.

Perhaps some of our WA readers will know more about this Windrush episode. I thought they had big plans for this tec, but it seemed to disappear quite quickly and I don't think it made it into their windsurfing boards.

Hi sailquik,
I was worked at windrush whilst they were developing their moulded epoxy surfboards ,from what I remember (I was only 15 then 1986)there was a high failure rate something like 1 out of 3 surf boards were ok for selling , they had problems with the resin wetting out evenly around the boards and had dry spots on the glass in places .
The foam blanks were getting cut on their computer controled foam cutting machine that Richard Mc Farlane was developing (later becoming wintech foam cutting machines in bibra lake industrial area)
After this i went on to do my apprenticeship in fitting/machining and lost contact with them,and windrush faded out with their
Roto molded boards to newer tech epoxy boards and board companies like bic ( funny enough their foam cutter machines were used to cut the blanks i believe)

Funny enough again , early 2000's i start working for an engineering company as a cnc machinist and was making a lot of the the components for the windtech foam cutting machines being sold worlwide .

Select to expand quote

jontyh said..

Gestalt said..

jontyh said..
With the final board (so far) i put in a 15mm (3x5mm laminated) pvc stringer, mainly to widen the blank and hopefully stiffen it, and more importantly a carbon strip on the bottom to prevent creasing. I routed out a 5mm deep disc under my front jump side foot-strap, and sandwiched 5mm pvc, and 4oz glass, so a mini sandwich. This board has held up ok, but i got a flikka custom, so it hasn't had as much use.

Jonty did you seal the EPS before laminating?

yes, with a thin filler coat of epoxy/micro balloons

Thx

Select to expand quote

lemat said..

Gestalt said..

lemat said..
Yes foaming resin skin are made in mold. Can be tough for not so much weight. Somewhere between sandwich skin and single skin. Without mold you can use sphertex wich is glass fiber with microsphere embeded. There are other bulker that can be used. You can also add microsphere in lam resin with an appropriate tech for saturated fiber. You can also spread micro between fiber layers.

Looks like a great product. I can see uses immediately if it didn't use so much resin. Especially underneath the board when not using a vacuum.

As all bulker it soak resin but finish at 1/3 density of glass/epoxy and contribute far more to strengh than pvc foam sandwich so you can have tough skin with this product but at same weight will be thinner than foam sandwich so less flexural stiffness. Rico sailboards made hi quality hi perf waveboards with sphertex deck.
Weight resin and saturate on table with tinted resin to see, always look not enough then press on board with compacted roller. Light vacuum is good here too. I often use soric LRC like this.

Your knowledge here Lemat is very appreciated.. have not heard of Rico boards until now and really like what I see with their shapes, graphics and construction. Would love to see one of their boards. They look very refined in the images.

the good news is the materials you've highlighted are all available in Australia so I'll look to experiment with them in future builds.

do you have any experience with quartz fiber cloth or net? Might also be referred to as high silica cloth.

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..
I guess a few here will be old enough to remember the Astra Surf, Waitata boards? My first epoxy slalom board, in the early 80's, was a Waitata. 9' x 24" if I remember correctly. Those boards were made in Australia and were EPS core covered with, (I think), mainly chopped strand glass wetted with foaming epoxy resin and enclosed in a mould, reportedly under quite large pressure created by the foaming resin.

As I understand it, the company went on to become AHD (Advanced Hull Dynamics?) and made Slalom, Freeride and Race boards in Australia for a few years. The owner reportedly relocated his business overseas, maybe to the USA first and later to Europe.

In any case, Tom Leudeke was sponsored by AHD in the late 80's and early 90's, and I was able to obtain a few of his used AHD boards around 1989-90. I used a couple in the Victorian Slalom Championship series (which I won in 1991 ). Those boards were the same foamed epoxy resin moulded constrution as the Waitata, and were quite stiff and light. They lasted very well and I still have the 9'6'' version in my shed somewhere. Their one weakness, that I found, was the Tuttle box cavity was simply moulded with the same process, all on one shot, and was subject to damage fairly easily when you struck something with the fin. I did many repairs on mine.

Later, Steve McGeary started the 'Speed' windsurfing board company and acquired the technology off the founder of the aforementioned companies. All those boards were made with EPS cores and no sandwich, were fast and light (quite comparable to the Euro Epoxy raceboards of the time) and generally quite durable. I had a few Speed Slalom and Raceboards and the only issue I had with them was with my first Speed PanAm 250 Raceboard. It was light and stiff but the foaming resin was incomplete along the rail and there were pinholes where it leaked and took on water very quickly. To his high credit, when Steve heard about this he turned up the the next race I entered in Melbourne with a new board for me and took the old one back. I still have that board in my shed too, and it is still sound and fun to ride once in a blue moon. Somewhere I still have Speed 9'4" slalom board too. Maybe I should find it and take it to Lake George this season for a spin around the Lake.

Steve eventually shut down his business, and I heard, sadly, that he was suffering from illness related to the materials he had worked with.

The next related thing I heard that pertains to this topic, is that one of the people already mentioned, I forget who, sold the technology to the founder of 'Extreme', (who I think was Steve Hayden?) who attemped to go into production in Western Victoria - perhaps Ballarat? I got one of the very first Extreme 280 Slalom boards, #2 I think. It actually had a Powerbox and I was not pleased as I had no PB fins and a good collection of Tuttle fins. Before I could even race this board, I heard that he had broken the mould on the 3rd board and given up on the idea of local production. He went to Cobra and got EPS sandwich boards made (with Tuttle boxes. ). There lies the end of Moulded foaming epoxy boards in Australia to the best of my knowlege. (I also still have the #2 280 Extreme and the sandwich 270 from Cobra. )

And yes, I got a Starboard Go for my kids in the 2000's that I believe is also EPS core and Foaming resin skin.

I have always been fascinated with this tec, but it thought it was best suited too Moulding. It would be very interesting indeed to see how it goes with straight laminating (without a mould). The idea is that the foaming of the resin forms a thick, high density rigid skin under the pressurised containment of the mould, that make the board quite stiff and de-lam resistant. How this could be achieved without a mould is the question?

Edit. Ahh! I forgot another angle of this story. At some time in the late 80's or very early 90's, Windrush also experimented with the no sandwich, eps, foaming construction. I dont know how far they got with it, but I did obtain a 6foot 'ish tri fin surfboard made by them with this construction. It was unbelievably strong and tough. They told me I could rap it with a hammer and probably not damage it, and it certainly seemed like that but I was not really game to try it. I sold it to a young bloke who was embarrking on an around Australia surfing safari for a few years, and I recon it would have been just the thing to have rattling around in the back of his ute. I am guessing it would have taken some very heady wipeouts and still come up for more. It's hard to remember exactly now, but I don't believe it was any heavier than a standard custom polyester board of the time.

Perhaps some of our WA readers will know more about this Windrush episode. I thought they had big plans for this tec, but it seemed to disappear quite quickly and I don't think it made it into their windsurfing boards.

There are guys at my local still using speed boards to this day. Some have been modified. One sold recently that I wanted to grab but it was bought by someone else the same day.

back in the 90's when I competed in race board class, a friend from school was on speed boards so I got to race his a few times. I was on manta boards at the time (Now NXS) and from memory it was hand laminated eps. I think the blanks were glued up as at that time you couldn't buy blocks big enough.

Select to expand quote

Gestalt said..

lemat said..

Gestalt said..

lemat said..
Yes foaming resin skin are made in mold. Can be tough for not so much weight. Somewhere between sandwich skin and single skin. Without mold you can use sphertex wich is glass fiber with microsphere embeded. There are other bulker that can be used. You can also add microsphere in lam resin with an appropriate tech for saturated fiber. You can also spread micro between fiber layers.

Looks like a great product. I can see uses immediately if it didn't use so much resin. Especially underneath the board when not using a vacuum.

As all bulker it soak resin but finish at 1/3 density of glass/epoxy and contribute far more to strengh than pvc foam sandwich so you can have tough skin with this product but at same weight will be thinner than foam sandwich so less flexural stiffness. Rico sailboards made hi quality hi perf waveboards with sphertex deck.
Weight resin and saturate on table with tinted resin to see, always look not enough then press on board with compacted roller. Light vacuum is good here too. I often use soric LRC like this.

Your knowledge here Lemat is very appreciated.. have not heard of Rico boards until now and really like what I see with their shapes, graphics and construction. Would love to see one of their boards. They look very refined in the images.

the good news is the materials you've highlighted are all available in Australia so I'll look to experiment with them in future builds.

do you have any experience with quartz fiber cloth or net? Might also be referred to as high silica cloth.

Yes Rico are custom high quality boards.
Never use quartz fiber. Use some net made with aramide (like kevlar) but hard to cut and textured a lot laminate. Don't like. Know i use cork and wood for sandwich, find it easily at good price, easy to clamp with simple vacuum system. Good impact strengh and durabilty. Find dampening of cork go nice with carbon stiffness.

Keith Teboul at Quatro told me that he makes single skin boards for prototyping for himself. Says since he doesn't jump anymore they are strong enough and without having to compensate for the extra layers, the shape is closer to what he has in CAD.

Personally, I like double sandwich construction. Light, stiff, and durable. Worth the extra $

Select to expand quote

jdfoils said..
Keith Teboul at Quatro told me that he makes single skin boards for prototyping for himself. Says since he doesn't jump anymore they are strong enough and without having to compensate for the extra layers, the shape is closer to what he has in CAD.

Personally, I like double sandwich construction. Light, stiff, and durable. Worth the extra $

I'd be interested to know if it's how the board flexes that he also enjoys because single skin boards feel great in turns.

Guys also jump on monolithic builds.


www.facebook.com/100057397302099/posts/pfbid0RMHPwH4QbJWuFBm55H7Jwd5qnPyntJgj3PJxboHq8cCWY8oBPcWKfhSY7XwDVKAEl/?app=fbl

Select to expand quote

lemat said..
Guys also jump on monolithic builds.


www.facebook.com/100057397302099/posts/pfbid0RMHPwH4QbJWuFBm55H7Jwd5qnPyntJgj3PJxboHq8cCWY8oBPcWKfhSY7XwDVKAEl/?app=fbl

That board looks so good. 82lt, 6kg and cost effective. Would love to try one of his boards to see what it feels like on the water. His shapes and finish quality look exceptional.