what a silly conversation this has become,

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Gestalt said...
what a silly conversation this has become,

It only becomes silly when the "armchair experts" give wrong information and are challenged by real experts.
Nearly 10000 posts wow he must know everything. NOT

it's silly because your expert in this case is giving ridiculous information that people like you seem to believe.

the deal here is that heel dents do cause delamination and the only way to stop this is to improve the layup. hoops is 100% wrong saying that is not the case.

why do you think riders puts 6 layers of carbon around the feet area and every board manufacturer on the planet reinforces the feet area. why do you think there are pages and pages of online posts from sup forums, surfboard forums etc about heel dents causing delamination.

what's ever more ridiculous is that riders himself on the mpora forum has suggested the only way to fix issues with heel dents and delamination is to improve the layup.

maybe it's time to change your perspective.

I'll leave you guys to discuss the virtues of building boards from only fibreglass. enjoy that adventure. I can't be bothered any more.

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Mainbreak said..

Gestalt said...
what a silly conversation this has become,

It only becomes silly when the "armchair experts" give wrong information and are challenged by real experts.
Nearly 10000 posts wow he must know everything. NOT

My current open ocean 70cm 120lt race board is 14kg eps wrapped with 2oz Innegra top and bottom, 3mm 60kg Divcell top and bottom, single unbleached 4oz top and bottom, there are some additional reinforced areas from the track back - 4oz glass and 4oz carbon track to tail - and of course all the inserts plus foot compression zones. That thing gets tacked plenty and because the back end it undergoing considerable modifications - there are no soft areas anywhere from tacking - it is getting trampled all over between the straps. I would consider myself to be 'heavy footed' so I overbuilt it by preempregnating the eps core with infusion resin and the nose has some coremat and additional 2oz innegra and 4oz glass. Been smacked about in catapults and dropped in the carpark - no repair necessary, barely a scratch. Its 7kg so at 100lt and an extra couple of 2oz Innegra and 4oz glass top and bottom and 5mm divcell - 7.5kg and a very tough board.

If the laminating work is not excellent, then forget it. Like Hoops says, If you can't build a board well with conventional materials you are never going to be able detect the marginal improvements that exotics can make. The only reason I am interested in innegra is to find a way to make my boards more durable in manual handling in transport and rigging and perhaps crashes or contact with foreight objects. No other tecky reason.

It needs to be understood that the most inefficient component in windsurfing setup is the user.

Take up riding performance motorcycles and see how far you get!

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Gestalt said..


the deal here is that heel dents do cause delamination and the only way to stop this is to improve the layup. hoops is 100% wrong saying that is not the case.

why do you think riders puts 6 layers of carbon around the feet area and every board manufacturer on the planet reinforces the feet area. why do you think there are pages and pages of online posts from sup forums, surfboard forums etc about heel dents causing delamination.

You will find that it is actually foam disintegration, not delamination. As I have said, the problems are in the foam, not the layup. You can make the outer skin strong but can still pulverise the core foam and leave the shell intact - the the shell then fails. Foam first, fibres second.

it's ridiculous that you blame the foam and not the layup. the foam is nothing more than permanent formwork. it has no structural integrity at all.

if it weren't about the layup then we would build boards out of 3 layers of glass only.

I don't think anyone's talking about making boards out of glass only. I was referring to Rider's lay up that included carbon foot reinforcements. I don't know why you're getting so upset. Riders boards are known to be strong and last a long time so this lay up has been proven.
All I'm saying is that if a board's not built well it will fail, no matter what you make it out of.

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Gestalt said..

it's ridiculous that you blame the foam and not the layup. the foam is nothing more than permanent formwork. it has no structural integrity at all.

if it weren't about the layup then we would build boards out of 3 layers of glass only.

There is no structural integrity in foam? Pour some acetone down the bunghole and see how structural the board is..

There is a difference between a crushed deck, where the layers technically delaminate, and a genuine delamination, where you get the laminate pulling away from the foam core because the bond between the EPS and the first layup of glass fails.

If you crush the foam around the foot pads you can overcome this by reinforcing the layup, adding a double sandwich or whatever..

But if you don't class the board properly, you could use 20 layers of glass and still have the bloody thing delaminate before it hits the water..

This all applies to boards with new school volume, so maybe yours are different.

at no point have i said that a poorly built board won't delaminate, nor did i say that heel dents are the only reason for delam. go back and read what i wrote.

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Man0verBoard said..

You will find that it is actually foam disintegration, not delamination. As I have said, the problems are in the foam, not the layup. You can make the outer skin strong but can still pulverise the core foam and leave the shell intact - the the shell then fails. Foam first, fibres second.

Greater skin stiffness spreads point loads over more EPS. In principle skin stiffness is achieved by either/or a) thicker sandwich i.e. just thicker d'cell and/or b) more or stronger layers of fibre. Thicker sandwich is a more efficient way to go in terms of weight for stiffness so it makes sense to me to use enough fibre for overall strength and knock toughness and thick d'cell where stiffness is required and thin d'cell and thin hull where flex is required. How much of what is suck it and see.

If I were building a board I would just follow some experienced persons advice keeping structural principles in mind being aware that there is a lot of folk wisdom involved and that is often wrong.

Sorry to hijack your thread ikw777. I was just trying to explain some basic ideas as to not getting too technical for your first board. It seems you've had a bit of experience with boats so you should be able to do a great job.
Practice panels, like you said is a great idea. I built my first boat a few years ago (international 14) and the advice I got from boat builders was really good.
It's all pretty similar but they definitely do things a little differently to most board builders. You just need to adapt a little bit.

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Gestalt said..

at no point have i said that a poorly built board won't delaminate, nor did i say that heel dents are the only reason for delam. go back and read what i wrote.

But it hurts my head too much

Geee so much to reply to. I'll keep it brief. Like hoop I was just giving advice from years of experience help out ikw777 I'm all for people making their own boards.

I've used that lay up for over 15 years now with slight variations in carbon patches. I've also made a few full carbon boards. I've only had two breakages that I know of one was on a full carbon board, the other was a deck crack after 4 years of use.

Gestalt maybe your damage was user error? Do you bend your hips and kness when landing jumps? Use the vent plug all the time? Store your board in a hot car?

Your surprised at my layup which has more glass than a production board? I think quite a few custom board makers use similar amounts of glass, what amounts do you use on your boards Gestalt?
No I dont use stringers 15kg eps and 75kg pvc.
I have also done 3mm balsa bottoms and 3mm corecell decks.
Anyone else want to share their layups.

In the days before email I contacted a few big reputable Hawaiin custom board makers for advice on layups I got quite a few faxes back from Rogue, Sailboards Maui, Jimmy Lewis and a couple i cant remember, with detailed diagrams of glass layups, resin amounts pvc types and weights pretty similar to my layups


To me a delam is the outer pvc and glass separating from the eps core. From hot cars flat landings not using vent plug.
Soft spots is the pvc breaking down as the whole sandwich in that area flexes, extra carbon and glass layers keep it stiff and stop the flex.

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Man0verBoard said..


You will find that it is actually foam disintegration, not delamination. As I have said, the problems are in the foam, not the layup. You can make the outer skin strong but can still pulverise the core foam and leave the shell intact - the the shell then fails. Foam first, fibres second.

Yep

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hoop said..

I don't think anyone's talking about making boards out of glass only. I was referring to Rider's lay up that included carbon foot reinforcements. I don't know why you're getting so upset. Riders boards are known to be strong and last a long time so this lay up has been proven.
All I'm saying is that if a board's not built well it will fail, no matter what you make it out of.

Yep

well I must admit when I first saw your layup suggestion It reminded me of the exact way boards were built back in the polyester days. which is why I asked the question about the stringer. it appeared to me you had moved your polyester construction method across to epoxy. I guess it doesn't surprise me that your info was based on research done before email.

something I want to clarify. in 2000 when my boards started to be made in vac bag epoxy with timber veneer I stopped breaking boards. it's been 15 years or there abouts now. my boards are now made exactly like the layups used in the production boards and have been for 15 years now. not to say the guy that makes my boards doesn't also make boards that don't last as long as mine. because he also makes lightweight carbon boards. I've compared them on the water as well and seen how they last, compared the same design made from different materials side by side. the thing is, when we talk of experts in Australia we should note there are people (not me) that have been building boards longer than anyone participating in this thread and that goes back to before guys like barn were even born.

I also don't agree that your layup has more layers of glass than a production board. that is the whole reason I was surprise that's what you use. just look at any production board except the full carbon ones. they have the same amount of glass as yours plus they have wood or full carbon or dyneema etc etc. some have double sandwich. I think the only thing your boards are guaranteed to have is more resin and attention to detail than a typical production board.

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R1DER said..


Geee so much to reply to. I'll keep it brief. Like hoop I was just giving advice from years of experience help out ikw777 I'm all for people making their own boards.

I've used that lay up for over 15 years now with slight variations in carbon patches. I've also made a few full carbon boards. I've only had two breakages that I know of one was on a full carbon board, the other was a deck crack after 4 years of use.

Gestalt maybe your damage was user error? Do you bend your hips and kness when landing jumps? Use the vent plug all the time? Store your board in a hot car?

Your surprised at my layup which has more glass than a production board? I think quite a few custom board makers use similar amounts of glass, what amounts do you use on your boards Gestalt?
No I dont use stringers 15kg eps and 75kg pvc.
I have also done 3mm balsa bottoms and 3mm corecell decks.
Anyone else want to share their layups.

In the days before email I contacted a few big reputable Hawaiin custom board makers for advice on layups I got quite a few faxes back from Rogue, Sailboards Maui, Jimmy Lewis and a couple i cant remember, with detailed diagrams of glass layups, resin amounts pvc types and weights pretty similar to my layups


To me a delam is the outer pvc and glass separating from the eps core. From hot cars flat landings not using vent plug.
Soft spots is the pvc breaking down as the whole sandwich in that area flexes, extra carbon and glass layers keep it stiff and stop the flex.

I should have added I listed my board layups at the beginning of the thread. give or take a few fine details that's pretty much the layup.

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R1DER said..

As a guide for you for an average size wave board, for each 4oz layer of glass (2.3m long) I mix about 180ml of resin not all of this is used I pull some out with the sqeegee and some is left on the plastic it is wet out on. I know of other people who use a lot less to get 5.5kg boards but they dont seem to last.
Bottom over eps
1 layer 4oz
6mm pvc
2 layers 4oz
Deck over pvc
1 layer 4oz
Carbon heel patches 6oz
4 or 5mm pvc
2 layers 4oz
1 layer 4oz from mast track back
4 layers carbon 6oz over heel gybe area
1 layer carbon patch around mast track.
= 6.3 kg wave board before straps pads and fins.

Should that be over EPS or do you stick a layer of PVC directly to EPS?

This manufacturer doesn't put glass between eps and PVC. At least I couldn't find any.

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Gestalt said..

I should have added I listed my board layups at the beginning of the thread. give or take a few fine details that's pretty much the layup.

Can you repeat it for us again? Maybe in the same format that R1DER put down (also minus a few details)

Note: for everyone playing at home, there's nothing wrong with R1DERS layup it's pretty standard..

lol, now we're talking to the "people" at home. what is this a game show.

lets have a look at fanatics construction.

finish coat
glass
wood
glass
pvc
glass
pvc
glass
eps.

lets look at starboard (2012)

finish coat
glass
full wood
glass
pvc
glass
eps

with double layer glass reinforcing and technora to rails/nose
additional biaxial carbon the feet area

my boards

finish coat
glass
full wood top and bottom
double layer glass (from memory) might have been single
pvc
glass
eps

has single and double technora reinforcing to mast track, fin box, feet area, rails, nose (it's visible)
bump pads with extra thick pads.
fin box is custom made glass laminate layup running right through to deck laminate. core is fully sealed in glass prior to layups.

I've also got a board which is double veneer but it's on the heavy side.

I've also stiull got some polyester boards and some proto 3 layer glass boards as well as an rrd board that was carbon/technora/pvc etc.

what's mark stone doing these days.

he's making all of his board in polyester is he not?
using a combination of fibreglass and wood/bamboo layups?

how about naish boards.

glass
wood
high density sandwich (which is assume contains some type of pvc and glass layup)
glass
eps

Ok now I just can't help myself and I am gong to let my secret out of the bag.

I leave a 4 cubic litre void in my board between the mast track and the front footstraps.
The dynamics are very difficult to explain to the lay-person however, simply, what I do is enclose a dehydrated cat within the void. The benefits of this are twofold. Primarily the function of the cat to assist in board trim, as the cat has excellent stabilising properties. The second function is that the cat absorbs an unwanted moisture from the core - it is widely known that cats love to lick salty surfaces.

I know what you are all probably thinking - but I assure you I thought of it first! Using cat is a sustainable renewable resource and beneficial to the indigenous fauna and flora!

Now, I can't give you all the construction methods as I need to protect my intellectual property.

PM me if you really want to know..

Thiys thread is givintg me a good chuckle. My information was from epoxy sandwich board makers who had good reputations for their boards and this layup is a lot different to the polyester boards I used to make.
Ive repaired a lot of production boards and the layers of glass used are a lot lighter weight than custom board makers use, some of the inside layers look so light and fine I question of its actually glass or a polyester fabric.
Gestalt I dont see any weights of materials used in your examples listed. ? 2oz ? 4oz ?80gm ? 200gm do you know the weights used?

finish coat
glass ........what weight how many layers?
full wood top and bottom ........what kind of wood how thick?
double layer glass (from memory) might have been single ..........what weight? one or two layers?
pvc ..........what thickness and weight in kg/m3
glass ...........what weight? ?1 layer
eps .......... what weight in kg/m3

If our going to talk he talk then back it up and tell us please.

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barn said..

Gestalt said..

I should have added I listed my board layups at the beginning of the thread. give or take a few fine details that's pretty much the layup.

Can you repeat it for us again? Maybe in the same format that R1DER put down (also minus a few details)

Note: for everyone playing at home, there's nothing wrong with R1DERS layup it's pretty standard..

thanks Barn

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Gestalt said..

what a silly conversation this has become,

Cmon at 9700 odd posts you love the banter

Mainbreak said...


"..It only becomes silly when the "armchair experts" give wrong information and are challenged by real experts.."

I have a diploma for furniture design ...does that mean I am a certified numpty?