They plane in 5-10 knots easily and never fall off the plane!

I understand at a certain wind speed they fall out the sky and then a long swim home is likely.

Some kites are much easier to launch out the water than others due to their design.

Just seems to make sense to get one in really crap wind where all windsurfers including foilers struggle.

Is it a difficult sport to learn?

I don't think under 10kn is easy flying. If you can't foil due to lack of wind, flying a kite is going to be technical.
Sure the kiters will chime in soon enough though

5-10 knots nah, reasonable sized kite vs reasonable sized windsurf they are both going (planing) at similar time but a windsurfer can always sail not planing. Foils seem to hit water before the kiters do.

But it maybe does have appeal in sub 20 knots/12m kite range if you are bump & jumping you aren't really getting wind & ramps whereas kiting you can do heaps. Positives also if you live somewhere it's shallow or are storage/vehicle/transport deficient.

But if you buy new it's not cheap to get into & then you have lessons. Some seem to like the feeling, some who I expected to kite tried it & didnt like it. Others from windsurf wear & tear, not fast or drop every gybe people have also gone permamently to kites.

Then there is the community thing, which in some areas seems to be alot stronger than ws but maybe due to average age of kiting being a bit lower. Plus for anti social types like me it's a bit of a negative getting people to help you launch & all that.

Best to get the lessons to try it & see if you like it, thankfully much of the us vs them has gone & it's just another water thing to do.

I agree with your post but not the bit about kiters not planing any earlier.

The hydrofoil kiters plane easily in the 5 to 10 knot wind range way earlier than an hydrofoil windsurfers and they plane a million times better thru the lulls too.

Just my observations.

20 year windsurfer, 20 year kiter, including 5 years kite foiling. Now giving wingdinging a go.

Basically sub-10 knot foiling is a bit of a myth. It's possible to foil in 10 knots and to ride out lulls provided you maintain apparent wind.

The kite foil racers have a 4 knot minimum for racing. I've never seen the local racers do that, even with huge mega-buck kites.

I am a bit skeptical about the whole 4-6 knot thing. When did you ever see a wind meter mounted in a place it could get a clean air flow that was reading a steady 4-5-6 knots? Wind naturally fluctuates. Even 4 knots over a 5 minute average will include periods of zero wind and it must have periods well over 4 knots.

In extreme light wind nothing will relaunch. The trick is to never crash your kite. That's fairly doable with a little practice and good technique. A light weight kite is less likely to stall and fall if you lose apparent wind.

I prefer a 12m lightweight 3-stut inflatable kite for light winds. If it drops it's fairly easy to self rescue and sail in on the downed kite. It's kind of fun.

The appeal of wingdinging is that if you run out of wind it's easy to paddle in and tow the wing. That's what I practiced on day 1. It's easy.

It's a bit ironic seeing windsurfers discussing the most efficient foils and sails and all the rest. If they wanted efficiency they would have switched to kites decades ago. Even now a freeride kite foiling kit will run rings around a racing windfoiler.

I was more referring average gear for average. The average windsurfer can pick up windsurf foiling relatively quick but i've seen a few experienced kiters struggle with foiling, performance wise the kite foils are in a different league.

Agree with Gorgo re wind strengths.

Surprised kite gpsing hasnt become a thing with shallow weedy spots.

switched to kites years ago and have switched back to sail.
Now both as suits
kite quicker to learn than sail.
don't have to gybe a kite twin tip
can get in more trouble with kite if you fail to respect safety
Kite equipment is more compact, can use your surfboard for surf / kite
kites have shorter life than sails, kites don't like hot cars
kites cheap compared to sail,mast,boom,extension,universal.
modern sails are works of art. Technology and fabrics
I like wave riding when windy more with sail than kite
12m wave kite on a surfboard (>25Ltrs) will get you through white water in >13knts @ 75kgs.

You have to have the operation first

I dabbled in kiting. It was very fun and easy to pick up. I was planing in winds I could never imagine with 'normal' windsurf kit. I was living in Houston at the time so kitesurfing was the only water based option.
I gave up after Houston though. Open water kiting just made me nervous. At least in Houston I was never deeper than waist level. But in the sea the consequences of getting it wrong would be too severe.
Now I'm back windsurfing I watch them regularly drift through the windsurf zone. I know what it's like so keep an eye on them until they hit the beach. Rescued a few lost boards. Called out the rescue boat on one occasion for a guy who looked like he didn't have energy to swim in.

Tried it, wasted money on equipment, and didn't like it. Ropes, dragging, twisting, pumping...put me off.
But mostly, I was unlucky to be surrounded by several intolerant pricks who were irritated that I was in their way while learning, although I was in the learning area. Pretty sad.

Kites seem to claim a lot of "personal space". A half of a 50m diameter circle.

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Gorgo said..
20 year windsurfer, 20 year kiter, including 5 years kite foiling. Now giving wingdinging a go.

Basically sub-10 knot foiling is a bit of a myth. It's possible to foil in 10 knots and to ride out lulls provided you maintain apparent wind.

The kite foil racers have a 4 knot minimum for racing. I've never seen the local racers do that, even with huge mega-buck kites.

I am a bit skeptical about the whole 4-6 knot thing. When did you ever see a wind meter mounted in a place it could get a clean air flow that was reading a steady 4-5-6 knots? Wind naturally fluctuates. Even 4 knots over a 5 minute average will include periods of zero wind and it must have periods well over 4 knots.

In extreme light wind nothing will relaunch. The trick is to never crash your kite. That's fairly doable with a little practice and good technique. A light weight kite is less likely to stall and fall if you lose apparent wind.

I prefer a 12m lightweight 3-stut inflatable kite for light winds. If it drops it's fairly easy to self rescue and sail in on the downed kite. It's kind of fun.

The appeal of wingdinging is that if you run out of wind it's easy to paddle in and tow the wing. That's what I practiced on day 1. It's easy.

It's a bit ironic seeing windsurfers discussing the most efficient foils and sails and all the rest. If they wanted efficiency they would have switched to kites decades ago. Even now a freeride kite foiling kit will run rings around a racing windfoiler.

I would say that post is about 50% right, and 50% wrong.


the kite foilers on race kit its no contest. they foil in lighter winds than anything else i've seen, and with no lack of speed. Ive seen them out on a near mirror surface (which is a sure sign its well below 10knots) looking powered up. But they like playing with fire when it ls that light. watched plenty of them do an epic swim when the kite ends up in the water.
Surprisingly, i've heard that wingdinging is as you say. big wind range, easier than it looks. And easy way out if the wind either dies or gets too much. Theres no board or string connection, so you take as little or as much power from the wing as you want or need.

as to windfoilers discussing which foils and sails are more efficient, well, maybe thats a fair laugh from a kite foil racers perspective, but any thing else in the kiting world ive seen, no. There really isn't anymore "efficiency" in kiting than windsurfing.

Maybe we have a slow breed of freeride kite foilers over here, but im yet to see one moving much faster than a twin tip. If anything they look slower.

The thing to remember is that kiters, kite foilers, and wing foilers have a motive force that has a lot of vertical in it.

Wind sports with traditional sails have motive forces that are only horizontal.

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petermac33 said..
They plane in 5-10 knots easily and never fall off the plane!

I understand at a certain wind speed they fall out the sky and then a long swim home is likely.

Some kites are much easier to launch out the water than others due to their design.

Just seems to make sense to get one in really crap wind where all windsurfers including foilers struggle.

Is it a difficult sport to learn?

If you have the right board and sail a kite has an advantage only in very low winds and using a huge 15-18 square meters kite. But they are as susceptible to winds drops as a windsurf is. In one of the locations I sail in there is a regular procession of kiters who go for loooong swims or need to be rescued by the coast guard (they don't mind, apparently they treat is as training).

Which brings to the main reason, besides safety and the frankly ridiculous size (the footprint is bigger than a sailboat!), I never picked it up. Range. I love to go long distances on a windsurf, and a kite is pretty much a beach toy. Responsible schools will tell you "never go farther than you can swim" and you'll see very few kites going more than one km from shore. For good reasons: if anything happens the thingy does not float ...

PS Speed: race foil kites have a sizable, advantage with respect to a windsurf when in the hands of very (VERY!) good riders. You are talking being able to go more than 30 knots in open water on a foil. Otherwise a slalom board in the hands of an average sailor, or a FSW in rough water, would smoke a kite any time.

There's probably only a couple of kph of wind strength between the kites getting going and me on a 9.2 and ultrasonic. Then once I've got 11knots and leaving the foilers behind.

on another note I've rigged up got into my wetsuit and on the water before any of them have got the kite in the air. They tell me it's less hassle, less kit but from what I've seen none of that is true. They are in every few minutes changing kite and foil size or trying to unwind miles of string.

I kited from 99 to 2009 and it is a great sport with lots of disciplines and is much easier to master than windsurfing.

Pre foiling: I would have stuck with kiting if I lived in a light wind area

Post foiling: The 3 knot advantage of kiting, over WS, has been eliminated by which ever foiling discipline you desire.

Race kite foiling is not a fair comparison as it only appeals to select individuals, just like formula WS only appealed to select individuals.

I reckon my foiling sessions in light wind on sail are equally as good as those recreational kite foilers: they might get going slightly earlier, but they do much more swimming and won't be able to schlog to the better wind.

I think the exodus from non-foiling kiting to wingfoiling is pretty high right now. So if I was a windsurfer jealous of kites, I would start wind foiling or wing foiling.

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thedoor said..
...

I think the exodus from non-foiling kiting to wingfoiling is pretty high right now. So if I was a windsurfer jealous of kites, I would start wind foiling or wing foiling.

I am sure the exodus might be temporary, but there are locations around here where you now see windsurf, wing foiling and almost no kites ... they are incredibly complex contraptions compared to a wing, foiling or otherwise.

Using the 80:20 rule, 80% of sessions on a foil are better than anything on a surface board. The ability to carve and glide and swoop in any conditions is highly addictive.

It's both satisfying, and a bit lonely, being out having fantastic sessions on days when other people don't bother going to the beach. That 3 knot advantage is the difference between going to the beach for a look and scoring an epic session, and not bothering. Given that actual winds can be 40% higher than forecast then an 8 knot forecast is often worth a look.

Absolutely in good surf I would be on a surfing board of some kind. The feel of a wave crashing behind your ear and a green wall lining up in front of you is very special. On the other hand, riding clean, small surf on a foil with some kind of wind powered supplement is highly grin inducing. See above.

There's a crew of windsurf LT riders in our area. I often feel nostalgic for that gliding feeling. My internal cinema still runs through images of bashing tacks in chop in the early 80's.

Discussing the potential failures of each kind of craft is a bit futile. Everything can fail. In reality catastrophic gear failures are very rare. I have towed in three sailboarders and one kiteboarder over the years. So far I have been able to get myself back to the beach.

I strongly subscribe to the "no further than you're prepared to swim" rule. I've never actually had to swim more than 50 metres. There's rarely any great benefit going miles out to sea, unless there's a surfable reef out there. It's more fun, more skilful and more challenging to do lots of turns. I've always done upwinders followed by wave play on the downwind run. The main difference between the craft is the time it takes. 4km upwind used to take an hour. With a foil it can be done in 15 minutes.

I don't think i will ever try kiting ,because there's so much more to learn with windsurfing ,

i just brought a foil ,not yet tried due to getting good wind strengths ,but thats enough excitement for me for 2020 .

but for sure they seem to do well in light winds as some times theres more wind up where the kite is rather than on the water where we are ,especially if your on the river where land is in the way of clean air ,
I just go SUP when the wind drops ,good to work on some more muscle groups
and love to surf SUPs .
i've seen many kiters saved ,but we always seem to make it to dry land .its good to be a allrounder ..give it a try ,but make sure you come back to windsurfing .

One kitemare performed, after seeing a handful every 20 sessions, is enough for most.

Hydrofoil kiters plane around 3 knots less than hydrofoil windsurfers and around 4-5 knots less than standard windsurfers.

This is my view after watching them plane non stop in wind a hydrofoil windsurfer on a big sail would simply never be able to get going in far less plane thru 4 and 5 knot lulls.

If i lived in a place where the wind was superlight i would try kiting for sure.

I think one of the biggest factors in having fun on the water is doing what suits your local conditions. I gps speed sail (Windsurf) slalom race (windsurf) Kitefoil (on a surf setup) and Do downwinders from my local beach with kite and surfboard. All these are the best sports I do on their day and I'm fortunate to have great conditions for all within 20 mins of home however if I lived near a lake with a keen crew of LT sailors I would take part in that instead. You also need to factor in a good bunch of guys to get wet with and suddenly who cares if a slalom setup goes 2 knots faster or a Kitefoil can run in less wind as long as you are getting out having fun.

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Jonski said..
I think one of the biggest factors in having fun on the water is doing what suits your local conditions. I gps speed sail (Windsurf) slalom race (windsurf) Kitefoil (on a surf setup) and Do downwinders from my local beach with kite and surfboard. All these are the best sports I do on their day and I'm fortunate to have great conditions for all within 20 mins of home however if I lived near a lake with a keen crew of LT sailors I would take part in that instead. You also need to factor in a good bunch of guys to get wet with and suddenly who cares if a slalom setup goes 2 knots faster or a Kitefoil can run in less wind as long as you are getting out having fun.

Thats the word there John, never understood the us and them thing, if you come of the water with a smile that's all that matters

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Gorgo said..
Absolutely in good surf I would be on a surfing board of some kind. The feel of a wave crashing behind your ear and a green wall lining up in front of you is very special. On the other hand, riding clean, small surf on a foil with some kind of wind powered supplement is highly grin inducing. See above.

The other reason I would still be kiting is if sailed the ocean more often eg shorebreak and lots of white water. Wave sailing on a windsurfer requires a far greater level of skill and commitment than kiting in the waves.

I windsurfed 20 years and then went to kitesurfing 20years , now back to windsurfing but windfoil only , I still take a ride on a kite once in a while to relax , I like both but honestly the more I windfoil the least I feel like to mess with a kite , the thing is with windfoiling /windsurfing the launch spots are almost everywhere and it is easy to find a quiet spot since the kiters don't have room to launch or are not allowed to kite for certain reasons . I can leave the beach before the thermals get in and sail upwind slowly to get at the best spot when the thermals kicks in , I can adjust my rig and take a break offshore , feed myself relax and give a rest to my muscles for 10 minutes all this offshore and then start again to enjoy my day . Regarding light air , yes kitefoilers ( especially the light weight persons that I call jealously the crickets ...) with the best light air equipment and good skill will stay longer on the water than me when the wind begin to die down ,but I can still sail slowly and enjoy the place while going back to my launch spot , and honestly living directly on the beach I can assure you that very often while derigging I see these kitefoilers swimming back to shore a short time after me .
To get a very efficient light air kitefoil rig is like to get a very nice 4/4 pick-up : you just get stuck further in the field hi hi .

I like both and I am currently waiting for my new JP Slalom 176 and 2 new very light kites (to get stock further .. :) with my *cricket* girlfriend .

Never tried kiting. Local kiters had a small light wind advantage over windsurfers, but using an old longboard reversed that.

With foils now, a couple of foil kiters at our local spot have a clear advantage. They can keep foiling when I'm struggling in lulls on 6.5 / i84. One of the issues we often face is that the wind near the surface is very much up and down (decoupling), and they seem to be catching cleaner wind. But every now and then, they are in for a long swim or walk while I can slog home.

One of our very light weight windsurfers is now getting into foiling, which will be interesting. She's probably less than 100 lb, and can usually plane in 11 knots on a 6.1. If she ends up getting a big foil, she might be able to get going at the same time as the kite foilers. It's more likely she'll end up on a smaller wing, though. We get 11 knots or more at least every other day, so she'll get plenty of play time with the wing.

Have windsurfed for 40 years, kited for 18 years and kite foiled for 4 years. I live 100m from the water so have my pick of conditions. I still have a full range of wave and free ride windsurf gear but probably now only use it about twice a year but kite in some form approx 3 to 4 times a week during the day light saving period. Free ride kite foiling is so efficient I am on the water if I can get my 9m kite to fly, except for other foilers everyone else is still sitting on the beach.

For me learning to kite and then again learning to foil gave me that addictive buzz I had got from learning to windsurf all those years earlier and that days where you would be out mowing the lawn became so much fun again.
Debating which is quicker or more efficient is irrelevant in this discussion. If you get a chance give any sport a try, if nothing else you gain a new perspective and sense of respect for those who have mastered it. Above all you have to be prepared to laugh at yourself and your failures, that's half the fun.

I learned to kite well before windsurfing. After dozens of hours of expensive lessons, it only took one death spiral to give it up. The feeling of being dragged along in the water head first, having tossed the safety and still not slowing down, was frightening (you pray you can throw the safety leash so you don't have to do a "hail Mary" with your knife). After losing my board to the ocean, almost losing my kite, but surviving, I avoided water sports for the following 7 years.

Also, after moving back to Toronto where there's not much kitesurf culture, I had no confidence anyone could help me launch, land, or be there to help if things went sideways.

Windsurfing just feels so much safer. I can ride overpowered by adapting my technique. The sail depowers easily and you can always paddle back in to shore if necessary. All of this means that the gear never runs away dragging you through the water. And if the wind dies (which happens more often than not here), it's always possible to slog home while the kiters are stuck.

If I had started windsurfing at the outset, I would have been riding for over a decade by now instead of a year. But I'm so glad I switched. I can't imagine going back to kiting.

Every time I entertain the idea, I hear of someone getting badly injured or killed. Might try the wing thing (have people settled on what to call it?)

I must admit a temptation when I see them carving up a shore break in 10-16kts like it's no big deal.

Whats the procedure for kites when a storm squall hits while you are on the water ?
Have been hit with 30+kn squalls a few times when windsurfing offshore, and have just dropped the rig and sat it out,
not sure how you do that with a kite?

It's an interesting one, I've windsurfed for 17 years and Kitesurfed the last 6. Juggling both sports and loving it.
Sub 10knots can be dam challenging! More so being able to keep the kite in the sky I found. Foiling was epic when it all clicks though.
Now I'm kiting from 15-20plus. Anything over that 25knots plus wind. I'm on the windsurfing kit

kiting I found simple to learn and progress super quick. Just be aware it can go wrong quick haha