Transitioning from a freeride foil to a typical race foil will be a real challenge unless you re-balance it. A typical race foil places the front wing further forward of the mast. If you don't change anything else on the board (footstraps, sail mast base, sail size/weight, foil position), the race foil will be VERY front foot heavy.

When I did this with a Flyer 7.0, I had to stand in front of the footstraps to balance the race foil. The solution was to install new further-forward footstrap holes. All my gear is deep tuttle so I could not move the foil itself. By the way, if you run a big heavy race sail (8.5 to 10.0) you get enough additional mast base pressure that you don't need to re-balance. The heavy sail does this for you.

Select to expand quote

segler said..
Transitioning from a freeride foil to a typical race foil will be a real challenge unless you re-balance it. A typical race foil places the front wing further forward of the mast. If you don't change anything else on the board (footstraps, sail mast base, sail size/weight, foil position), the race foil will be VERY front foot heavy.

When I did this with a Flyer 7.0, I had to stand in front of the footstraps to balance the race foil. The solution was to install new further-forward footstrap holes. All my gear is deep tuttle so I could not move the foil itself. By the way, if you run a big heavy race sail (8.5 to 10.0) you get enough additional mast base pressure that you don't need to re-balance. The heavy sail does this for you.

That is very useful observation. I am using 7.0 Flyer and considering to get 115 classic or 105 cm fuselage since I am finding exactly front heavy ride despite the sail mast is positioned all the way front of the track. On my free ride foil this was easily addressed since I have the track to slide foil which is not possible on race board with fixed tuttle box. I am trying not to use bigger sails since it requires longer masts and booms.

Select to expand quote

SA_AL said..

segler said..
Transitioning from a freeride foil to a typical race foil will be a real challenge unless you re-balance it. A typical race foil places the front wing further forward of the mast. If you don't change anything else on the board (footstraps, sail mast base, sail size/weight, foil position), the race foil will be VERY front foot heavy.

When I did this with a Flyer 7.0, I had to stand in front of the footstraps to balance the race foil. The solution was to install new further-forward footstrap holes. All my gear is deep tuttle so I could not move the foil itself. By the way, if you run a big heavy race sail (8.5 to 10.0) you get enough additional mast base pressure that you don't need to re-balance. The heavy sail does this for you.

That is very useful observation. I am using 7.0 Flyer and considering to get 115 classic or 105 cm fuselage since I am finding exactly front heavy ride despite the sail mast is positioned all the way front of the track. On my free ride foil this was easily addressed since I have the track to slide foil which is not possible on race board with fixed tuttle box. I am trying not to use bigger sails since it requires longer masts and booms.

This is on the 95cm IQFoil board? Straps set up as per suggested? iqfoil.star-board.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/iFoil-Board-Trimming-Guide_iQFoil95.pdf

Also what conditions for the 7.0? 12-14kts I may bump the 9.0 mast base up 1cm with 0 shim, 115+ and drop the boom 1 mark, which is about an inch, with the 900 front. I'm 85-88kg and usually put the boom as high as it will go in 7-10kts.
When it gusts up higher and I'm trimmed for lighter winds I go really deep downwind with back foot out of the strap. Otherwise more upwind in both straps, leaning into gust and forcing as much weight as I can in the harness, sheeted in.

After reviewing some of the Starboard race foil length and stability, I decided to get 105+ evolution fuselage for my 95/800/-255 IQ foil to see if that will be easier for me riding on my115+ fuselage. I already maxed out on the front straps and sail mast but still heavy on the front leg while riding.
Because the front wing is 3.5 cm backward on 105+ fuse compared to the 115+, my balance point will be relatively forward keeping my footstaps as in the same position. Apparently, the 105 cm plus is also recommended for the heavier windfoilers (> 90 kg). As I understand, the lift of the 105+ is similar to the old 115 cm fuselage but the 105 cm + expected to be slightly less stable foiling than the 115 cm. Although some of the people I talked to said they do not feel a significant difference. The big advantage of 105+ may give me better foot positioning and trimming the backwing better than 115+.

With any foil--freeride or race--as a starting point, do whatever it takes to get the front wing at or near the mid point between your footstraps. That is what I, and others, including Sailworks, mean when we say "balance."

Then fine tune from there.

With a fixed DT box, all you have for balance adjustment are footstrap position, sail mast base position, and--for SS--fuselage A B C position.

If you have dual tracks, you have an additional--and very effective--adjustment as well.

Select to expand quote

SA_AL said..
After reviewing some of the Starboard race foil length and stability, I decided to get 105+ evolution fuselage for my 95/800/-255 IQ foil to see if that will be easier for me riding on my115+ fuselage. I already maxed out on the front straps and sail mast but still heavy on the front leg while riding.
Because the front wing is 3.5 cm backward on 105+ fuse compared to the 115+, my balance point will be relatively forward keeping my footstaps as in the same position. Apparently, the 105 cm plus is also recommended for the heavier windfoilers (> 90 kg). As I understand, the lift of the 105+ is similar to the old 115 cm fuselage but the 105 cm + expected to be slightly less stable foiling than the 115 cm. Although some of the people I talked to said they do not feel a significant difference. The big advantage of 105+ may give me better foot positioning and trimming the backwing better than 115+.

What board are you on? Is it the IQFoil board (95cm) or something else?

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..

SA_AL said..
After reviewing some of the Starboard race foil length and stability, I decided to get 105+ evolution fuselage for my 95/800/-255 IQ foil....

What board are you on? Is it the IQFoil board (95cm) or something else?

I am using 150 lt Starboard freeride which is 85 cm wide. I was debating to go with Slalom 91 cm vs Freeride. I was told the freeride will be more friendly but I knew I was going to loose from using bigger sails and less leverage on low wind foiling but I did not want to use bigger sail and decided to get millennium 1000 front wing for low wind condition.

Select to expand quote

SA_AL said..

aeroegnr said..

SA_AL said..
After reviewing some of the Starboard race foil length and stability, I decided to get 105+ evolution fuselage for my 95/800/-255 IQ foil....

What board are you on? Is it the IQFoil board (95cm) or something else?

I am using 150 lt Starboard freeride which is 85 cm wide. I was debating to go with Slalom 91 cm vs Freeride. I was told the freeride will be more friendly but I knew I was going to loose from using bigger sails and less leverage on low wind foiling but I did not want to use bigger sail and decided to get millennium 1000 front wing for low wind condition.

Ahh yeah maybe the 105+ is better for that board. There is a guy here that rides pretty well, even though he hasn't been running that long, on 105+, 800 front, and on the Severne Alien board I think. Usually runs a 2 cam severne foil glide 7.0. I think he weighs only ~135-145lbs, so quite a bit less than me (195 at the moment).

The freeride board looks like it wouldn't have quite the leverage for fully sheeting in and going upwind hard with the long 115+, but I honestly don't know. You can't really ride it on beam reaches when the wind starts getting to be 12-14kts and you stop needing to pump to get flying, unless you really detune the sail. At least with the 9.0. Speeds around 20-22kts I'm going a bit downwind with the 900/9.0/115+.

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..

SA_AL said..
After reviewing some of the Starboard race foil length and stability, I decided to get 105+ evolution fuselage for my 95/800/-255 IQ foil....

aeroegnr said..

Ahh yeah maybe the 105+ is better for that board. There is a guy here that rides pretty well, even though he hasn't been running that long, on 105+, 800 front, and on the Severne Alien board I think. Usually runs a 2 cam severne foil glide 7.0. I think he weighs only ~135-145lbs, so quite a bit less than me (195 at the moment).

I tried 105+ with both 1000 and 800 wing /0 shim -2/255 wing on the Starboard freeride 150 lt but felt it was not as stable as the 115+. I will now on focus on using only 115+. With the Severne foil glide 3 cam 7.0 sail I felt much better using the 115+1000, 0 shim.

Try a heavier sail. Most foil race, and windsurf slalom race sails weigh as much as 4 lbs more than a 7.0 Flyer.
Lower boom to get weight forward.

Sorry, been reading your posts, but not the last one with Foil Glide.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
Sorry, been reading your posts, but not the last one with Foil Glide.

You are right Foil glide helped. Foil glide is 0.5 kg heavier but I am sure bigger sail (like 8 or 9) could be helpful for keeping the nose down. However, anything bigger than 7.0 size is requiring bigger boom and 490 mast for HA foil sail. I am therefore using 1000 wing rather than getting a bigger sail. It is possible I may move the footstrap box forward on my Starboard freeride 150lt. I am still leaning forward with my current set-up to get balanced run. I will test the 115+ on my slingshot 160 lt board ( with foil tracks that I was using for Armstrong foil) using tuttlebox adaptor since I could move foil wing that is not possible on the Starboard freeride board. Slingshot width is similar to my Starboard freeride board.

My old 6.6 Loft 3 cam freerace weighs 14.5 lbs. without a bag. That should weight the nose of your setup.
One of the local longtime North sponsored sailors, now Duotone, used to add a weight to his mast base of around 2 lbs before convincing Tillo to move the tuttle box back farther. Maybe 4 years ago.

Before you go messing with the board track down an original 115 fuselage, they aren't expensive.

That IS the culprit, and original 115 moves the foil back farther, which is what you need.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
That IS the culprit, and original 115 moves the foil back farther, which is what you need.

I thought about that since it will put the front wing in backward compared to 115+ but could not find classic 115 fuselage, out of stock. I wasn't also sure what to do if that doesn't work and I will be stuck with the fuselage. Adaptor is cheaper than fuselage.

Look used, they are all over the place. I have one just sitting in the shed.

My fuselage is compatible with evolution wings and I thought Starboard slightly changed the fuselage with evolution .Do you know if I could use evolution wings with the classic 115 fuselage?

I thought you were on the original 115+, unfortunately I don't think the Evolution wings are backwards compatible. Tails are though.

I wanted to give an update on the fellow who was learning on the Goya Bolt 137 lt 79 cm wide with Starboard 1100 wing 95 fuse 500 tail. He took off the backstraps which allowed him to position his feet more toward the center and also more forward. In addition, he stopped sheeting in when he was up. Since then he made good progress and could ride longer while foiling. I have also been making good progress on my IQ foil 800/115+ set up. For me, I decided that I need more powered up on a race foil that was different than my freeride foiling experience. On my 220 lbs weight at 16-18 mph wind, I need 7.0 sail that is unlike what I was using for low aspect windfoil. On a race windfoil set-up, one needs to be riding in overpower condition. My buddy on the Goya set-up also felt that if he does not have a good power on his sail, he stall and fell from foiling. In summary, those of you making this transition, consider bigger sails if you are using HA or medium aspect foil in Starboard set-up.

Select to expand quote

SA_AL said..
I wanted to give an update on the fellow who was learning on the Goya Bolt 137 lt 79 cm wide with Starboard 1100 wing 95 fuse 500 tail. He took off the backstraps which allowed him to position his feet more toward the center and also more forward. In addition, he stopped sheeting in when he was up. Since then he made good progress and could ride longer while foiling. I have also been making good progress on my IQ foil 800/115+ set up. For me, I decided that I need more powered up on a race foil that was different than my freeride foiling experience. On my 220 lbs weight at 16-18 mph wind, I need 7.0 sail that is unlike what I was using for low aspect windfoil. On a race windfoil set-up, one needs to be riding in overpower condition. My buddy on the Goya set-up also felt that if he does not have a good power on his sail, he stall and fell from foiling. In summary, those of you making this transition, consider bigger sails if you are using HA or medium aspect foil in Starboard set-up.

Good to hear. 7.0 in 16-18 sounds about normally powered to me (I'm ~195lbs or so). I was in similar on Sunday with a 7.5 (camless) on the 650 front and 105+, which has less forward lift and takes a bit more work to get flying. There was a guy out with a 6.0 and the 725/105+ but he also was about 40lbs less than me. You can do even a 9.0 with that setup but with that windspeed and the 115+ you need to go high upwind or deep downwind to keep from blowing up on the reach if you stay fully powered.

If you start feeling the sail get backhanded then you're starting to get overpowered or you need to add some more downhaul/outhaul, depending on where you started. You'll notice it a LOT more than with a fin, because the backhand pressure starts wanting to lift you out of the water when you don't want it to, which is a lot of the reason why cammed sails help. Your 3 cam 7.0, if that's what you were using, should feel really good even in more wind than that I would think. Sometimes I will be out with my 4 cam 9.0 HGO in those conditions or more when the fin guys start using 8.0s or less, but it takes more tactical angles to survive with the 115+. Above 20kts is possible but the leech starts to flutter very noisily and I can't fully sheet in unless I'm really extreme upwind/downwind.

Not the best looking posture here, could've been in rear strap, didn't get as locked-in and upright as I could've as I was a bit unused to this setup, but the conditions should have been kind of similar to what you are describing. There was a guy out with a fin and a 9.5 who is a little lighter than me as well:

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..

SA_AL said..
I wanted to give an update on the fellow who was learning on the Goya Bolt 137 lt 79 cm wide with Starboard 1100 wing 95 fuse 500 tail. He took off the backstraps which allowed him to position his feet more toward the center and also more forward. In addition, he stopped sheeting in when he was up. Since then he made good progress and could ride longer while foiling. I have also been making good progress on my IQ foil 800/115+ set up. For me, I decided that I need more powered up on a race foil that was different than my freeride foiling experience. On my 220 lbs weight at 16-18 mph wind, I need 7.0 sail that is unlike what I was using for low aspect windfoil. On a race windfoil set-up, one needs to be riding in overpower condition. My buddy on the Goya set-up also felt that if he does not have a good power on his sail, he stall and fell from foiling. In summary, those of you making this transition, consider bigger sails if you are using HA or medium aspect foil in Starboard set-up.

Good to hear. 7.0 in 16-18 sounds about normally powered to me (I'm ~195lbs or so). I was in similar on Sunday with a 7.5 (camless) on the 650 front and 105+, which has less forward lift and takes a bit more work to get flying. There was a guy out with a 6.0 and the 725/105+ but he also was about 40lbs less than me. You can do even a 9.0 with that setup but with that windspeed and the 115+ you need to go high upwind or deep downwind to keep from blowing up on the reach if you stay fully powered.

If you start feeling the sail get backhanded then you're starting to get overpowered or you need to add some more downhaul/outhaul, depending on where you started. You'll notice it a LOT more than with a fin, because the backhand pressure starts wanting to lift you out of the water when you don't want it to, which is a lot of the reason why cammed sails help. Your 3 cam 7.0, if that's what you were using, should feel really good even in more wind than that I would think. Sometimes I will be out with my 4 cam 9.0 HGO in those conditions or more when the fin guys start using 8.0s or less, but it takes more tactical angles to survive with the 115+. Above 20kts is possible but the leech starts to flutter very noisily and I can't fully sheet in unless I'm really extreme upwind/downwind.

Not the best looking posture here, could've been in rear strap, didn't get as locked-in and upright as I could've as I was a bit unused to this setup, but the conditions should have been kind of similar to what you are describing. There was a guy out with a fin and a 9.5 who is a little lighter than me as well:

Great feedback. When I was using my low aspect windfoil, I was on 2 m smaller sail than I use for regular windsurfing. I was apparently wrongfully considering the same rule applies for the race foil but now I realize this is not the case. I am now foiling much better with this set up (7.0 Severne foil glide 3 cam) but now I am sure what to set up for gusty >24 mph conditions on a race foil. What are doing when wind picks up like that in terms of foil and sail? I am using Starboard freeride that is 85 cm wide. How is the ride on wider board like yours on strong winds?

Select to expand quote

SA_AL said..

aeroegnr said..

SA_AL said..
I wanted to give an update on the fellow who was learning on the Goya Bolt 137 lt 79 cm wide with Starboard 1100 wing 95 fuse 500 tail. He took off the backstraps which allowed him to position his feet more toward the center and also more forward. In addition, he stopped sheeting in when he was up. Since then he made good progress and could ride longer while foiling. I have also been making good progress on my IQ foil 800/115+ set up. For me, I decided that I need more powered up on a race foil that was different than my freeride foiling experience. On my 220 lbs weight at 16-18 mph wind, I need 7.0 sail that is unlike what I was using for low aspect windfoil. On a race windfoil set-up, one needs to be riding in overpower condition. My buddy on the Goya set-up also felt that if he does not have a good power on his sail, he stall and fell from foiling. In summary, those of you making this transition, consider bigger sails if you are using HA or medium aspect foil in Starboard set-up.

Good to hear. 7.0 in 16-18 sounds about normally powered to me (I'm ~195lbs or so). I was in similar on Sunday with a 7.5 (camless) on the 650 front and 105+, which has less forward lift and takes a bit more work to get flying. There was a guy out with a 6.0 and the 725/105+ but he also was about 40lbs less than me. You can do even a 9.0 with that setup but with that windspeed and the 115+ you need to go high upwind or deep downwind to keep from blowing up on the reach if you stay fully powered.

If you start feeling the sail get backhanded then you're starting to get overpowered or you need to add some more downhaul/outhaul, depending on where you started. You'll notice it a LOT more than with a fin, because the backhand pressure starts wanting to lift you out of the water when you don't want it to, which is a lot of the reason why cammed sails help. Your 3 cam 7.0, if that's what you were using, should feel really good even in more wind than that I would think. Sometimes I will be out with my 4 cam 9.0 HGO in those conditions or more when the fin guys start using 8.0s or less, but it takes more tactical angles to survive with the 115+. Above 20kts is possible but the leech starts to flutter very noisily and I can't fully sheet in unless I'm really extreme upwind/downwind.

Not the best looking posture here, could've been in rear strap, didn't get as locked-in and upright as I could've as I was a bit unused to this setup, but the conditions should have been kind of similar to what you are describing. There was a guy out with a fin and a 9.5 who is a little lighter than me as well:

Great feedback. When I was using my low aspect windfoil, I was on 2 m smaller sail than I use for regular windsurfing. I was apparently wrongfully considering the same rule applies for the race foil but now I realize this is not the case. I am now foiling much better with this set up (7.0 Severne foil glide 3 cam) but now I am sure what to set up for gusty >24 mph conditions on a race foil. What are doing when wind picks up like that in terms of foil and sail? I am using Starboard freeride that is 85 cm wide. How is the ride on wider board like yours on strong winds?

Above 20kts my experience has been scary with the 900/115+/9.0. I have gone out with a camless freerace 6.6 but I was not happy and felt like I was in survival mode, but supposedly it was gusting up to 30kts or so (not sure how much I trust that particular wind meter but it was very strong for 6.6, would've easily been flying on a fin). I don't think the board in particular was causing as much of a problem as an overpowered sail. I believe it was maybe 25kts max due to the sensor position and all of that. If you give some tilt of the board into the wind it does help keep the nose down.

I think someone like Berowne would probably have the better advice as it just doesn't blow that hard regularly enough for me to get dialed in on something. You may be able to hold on to the cammed 7.0 up there but again you're going to have to go hard upwind/downwind, not reaching, with that fuselage. You'd probably be happier with a cammed 6.0.