slalom sails for foil

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foilarg > 9 months ago, 20 May 2021

foilarg

46 posts

20 May 2021 8:05am

?Las velas de slalom como Mach 1 son buenas para florete? Me venden una mach 1, 8,6m. Ser?a para usar con la f?rmula Race ST y la mesa de aluminio. ya que las velas espec?ficas no est?n en mi presupuesto en este momento.

ZeroVix

366 posts

20 May 2021 8:24am

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foilarg said..
?Las velas de slalom como Mach 1 son buenas para florete? Me venden una mach 1, 8,6m. Ser?a para usar con la f?rmula Race ST y la mesa de aluminio. ya que las velas espec?ficas no est?n en mi presupuesto en este momento.

Ich verstehe nichts. Please use the English translator and post it in the forum out of respect to others.

WillyWind

582 posts

20 May 2021 9:01am

This is what I gathered from the first post: "are Slalom sails like the Mach 1 good for foiling? There is a 8.6 for sale. I would use it with formula race ST and the aluminum (mast?) Dedicated foil sails are out of my budget."

Foilarg: si no traduces al ingles nadie va a responder. Usa google translate (y deja de usar acentos as? no aparecen las letras reemplazadas por signos de pregunta!)

LeeD

3939 posts

20 May 2021 9:15am

My Loft 5.8 switchblade works great in 7-15 knot wind with my Naish Hover 122, and 600 sq cm kitefoil. No need to use my 6.6 or 7.8.

Awalkspoiled

533 posts

20 May 2021 10:23am

Slalom sails will work but there are problems:
They're heavy, and the big pump that's needed to get the cams to switch is awkward when you're flying.
They prefer to be set with a very loose leech which given the dominance of apparent wind in foiling is inefficient.
If you set them up with minimal downhaul to tighten the leech, the cams won't rotate properly. If you use outhaul to tighten the leech the sail becomes very twitchy.

I'll foil on my Sailworks NX 8.6 from time to time (today, for instance, in 10mph breeze), but honestly it doesn't drop my wind minimum much below what I can get with my Flyer 7.0. Bruce Peterson recommends removing the bottom cam for foil use but I don't find that terribly helpful. It is very, very fast off the wind, though.

Now, lord knows how to say all that in Spanish...

LeeD

3939 posts

20 May 2021 10:31am

The extra weight alone almost justifies using multi cam race sails.
Simple cure if any rotational problems, trim shims and run a softer, smaller diameter mast.
The soft progressive power of a top end tuned slalom sail gives a rubber band effect extending higher wind foiling into more control.

PatK

322 posts

20 May 2021 8:12pm

I would not recommend the Mach sail, too much power. Foiled a lot with a 8.6 severne overdrive and sb race foil. That was good.

segler

1658 posts

20 May 2021 10:33pm

I foil with cammed race sails, cammed Flyers, and no-cam sails.

I like the cammed race sails UNTIL it gets gusty. A cammed race sail is designed to accelerate forward in a gust. This is great for finning, but makes it prone to breaching on a foil. You have to anticipate the gust and be ready to prevent the breach.

The cammed Flyers are much less prone to this, and the better no-cam sails simply absorb the gusts and keep a more consistent level of power.

foilarg

46 posts

20 May 2021 11:32pm

Sorry for the confusion of the language, I used the translator from my Spanish to English, but when I pasted it, the automatic translator returned it to Spanish again. Are slalom sails like Mach 1 good for foil? They sell me a mach 1, 8.6m. It will be for use with the Race ST and the formula table. I currently have a 7.8m H2. weight 100kg. The specific candles are not in my budget at this time.

LeeD

3939 posts

21 May 2021 12:45am

Any aluminum mast must be 25 years old...or 35. Serfiac Golds were OK, Greens broke all the time.
North Alu's flex top.
Why not buy a USED 8.5 for half the price?
Or set up your 7.8 for early planing? .7 at that sizing is almost no difference....maybe 1/2 mph earlier planing.
.7 in a 5 meter sail is fine.

thedoor

2487 posts

21 May 2021 4:14am

Not really a race sail but the hot sails maui speed freak has one cam and I find it gives me the perfect combination of low end pumping power and high end control. My other big foiling sails were the flyer which has a good high end but I found it difficult to pump up in low wind and the naish lift which pumps so well if you have enough outhaul, but becomes unstable when the wind picks up.

The lift is great if you plan to use big wings in light wind and the flyer might be better if you are using faster foils and willing to rig bigger, but for me the speedfreak seems to allow me to do both.

Maddlad

925 posts

21 May 2021 9:18am

In my experience, slalom sails are too twitchy for foils, where as proper foil sails, especially race foil sails with cams are much more stable which is what you want on a foil.

WhiteofHeart

798 posts

21 May 2021 2:14pm

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foilarg said..
Sorry for the confusion of the language, I used the translator from my Spanish to English, but when I pasted it, the automatic translator returned it to Spanish again. Are slalom sails like Mach 1 good for foil? They sell me a mach 1, 8.6m. It will be for use with the Race ST and the formula table. I currently have a 7.8m H2. weight 100kg. The specific candles are not in my budget at this time.

I dont think you'd get much of anything out of it compared to the 7.8 H2. Less comfort, similar or less early planing, maybe slightly more top end & speed, but not much more up and downwind performance.

If you want to go into racing you'd be a lot better off finding a second hand foilracing sail in 9.0. There should be a lot on the market as everyone switched to the IQ kit.

LeeD

3939 posts

22 May 2021 5:37am

There is NO sail more stable than slalom sails.
You can tune them for the wind speed you encounter.
Super powerful deep draft low end.
Springy top end with flatter draft, looser leech.
But...you have to tune for wind conditions!

Subsonic

3384 posts

22 May 2021 9:37am

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LeeD said..
There is NO sail more stable than slalom sails.
You can tune them for the wind speed you encounter.
Super powerful deep draft low end.
Springy top end with flatter draft, looser leech.
But...you have to tune for wind conditions!

I used to think that too, till i got the oppurtunity to try a slalom sail and then a foil race sail straight after. A further discussion with a windsurfing sail designer clarified a few things that i hadn't really thought about.

the reality is that the two disciplines require somewhat different sail characteristics to feel stable. The low down power a slalom sail has translates to twitchy when you go foiling. The constant chop hitting that an "open" top slalom sail compensates for isn't there when you're flying. A tighter leech gives you a more constant power delivery that helps a lot when you're up and flying, or trying to get flying. Not so much when you're dealing with the "slowing" forces of hitting chop though. Thats when you're open leech slalom sail, with its low down power is the more stable option.

sure, you can drop some down haul off a slalom sail and gain some leech tension, but then the sails camber deepens, the draft moves forward, and as Awalkspoiled said cambers won't rotate as well, and the sail gets twitchy. Even more so if you pull on outhaul to try and compensate.

LeeD

3939 posts

22 May 2021 10:48am

Tune for foil includes trimming cam pressure, using softer or smaller diameter mast, fully downhauled or more, to get a lower wind tuning range.
You don't rig it the same as for windsurfing.

Robertos

144 posts

22 May 2021 2:22pm

Nice video about this from Vincent GER-1:

segler

1658 posts

22 May 2021 10:43pm

Twitchy. I have never used a slalom sail that was twitchy. Just the opposite. Dead steady. Great for finning.

Again, the problem with such a sail for foiling is that the sail generates so much forward power in the gusts that it makes it too easy to breach when you accelerate.

Foil sails seem to absorb gusts better and apply more steady power through the wind range. At least my 5-batten 2-cam 7.0 Flyer does. Yesterday I foiled in gusty conditions that would have normally kept me on the beach. My 7.0 Flyer handled it all well.

WhiteofHeart

798 posts

23 May 2021 6:20pm

The higher aspect ratio, higher up COE and thighter leecht really make foil racing sails a lot more stable on the foil than a slalomsail. I raced in gusts upto 35 knots with my 9.0 Phantom RF (membrane construction up/down racing sail), I couldnt have done the same with a 9.0 slalom sail.

LeeD

3939 posts

24 May 2021 12:42am

NP's I've seen are indeed taller/shorter boom, but have extreme leech looseness, just like a slalom sail.
Battens might be softer, I don't know, and draft is different, almost flatter and farther back.

OTOH, those sails, modern slalom and foil race, are new to me.
Looking at NP, Duotone,and Severne foil sails.
Does it make sense a tighter leech taller sail would have great top end?
Draft aft makes for better low end.

Maddlad

925 posts

24 May 2021 9:37am

I mean, what would us guys who have raced foils in all conditions for the last 2 years know about foil sails vs slalom sails eh? Just as well we have someone here to tell us we are all wrong constantly.

LeeD

3939 posts

24 May 2021 10:00am

You are correct that foil race sails are better than windsurf slalom sails for windfoil.
But no way a tighter leech can handle more wind than a looser leech.
And what exactly ARE the differences......depth, location, fineness of leading edge...stuff you only know with the sail designer around to consult, or have a foil sail and a slalom sail if the same make and size rigged and ready for inspection.

martyj4

534 posts

24 May 2021 10:28am

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It really depends on what you intend to use the sail for. The video posted by Robertos sums it up pretty well - from an expert (NOT LeeD). Are you intending to race it? Or get a bit more performance over what you already have?
I think the problem with what LeeD proposes is that there's no guarantee what he says WILL work. In theory, MAYBE, but that's a big chance to take - and it's your money - not LeeD's. Trying to use different flex masts and different diameter masts on sails that might not be designed for that purpose is definitely going to change the characteristics of the sail. How do you know it will give you the characteristics you want? Lets say you buy the sail, find it doesn't work properly with the gear you have. You then need to buy another mast to try out. No guarantees there. Maybe change battens as well? Plus potentially fiddle around with the cams. And after all that, what's the guarantee? I see this costing you potentially LOTS of time and money for an unguaranteed result.
You may ending up spending a heap more on extras to make it work - and it may be cheaper (and much better) to just wait for a 2nd hand foil specific sail to come up as WoH suggests.

LeeD

3939 posts

24 May 2021 11:42am

STABLE does not necessarily mean best for the application. We were talking stable, or less stable. Bump sailing, high wind, freestyle, stable has less influence.
But to say slalom sails are NOT stable.....think for yourself.
And yes.....always buy the latest and greatest gear, because.....it's the latest and greatest.
But be sure, in 1 or 2 years, your sail is slow, outdated, and completely not competitive.
Which says something.

Subsonic

3384 posts

24 May 2021 5:53pm

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LeeD said..

But to say slalom sails are NOT stable.....think for yourself.

no one said slalom sails aren't stable. What was said is foil sails compared like for like, are more stable FOR FOILING.

Its not about owning the latest and greatest. Its about having the right sail for the job. If you spend a lot of time doing slalom and the odd day of foiling on occasion, buy a slalom sail and make do with it for the odd occasion you're on the foil. But if you think you're going to spend a lot of time on the foil and want to go racing on them, then invest in a dedicated foil sail (foil slalom or course racing depending on what you're intending to do more of) even if its a second hand one.

segler

1658 posts

24 May 2021 11:11pm

The one really important thing I picked up from GER-1's video is that a foil sail tends to push the nose DOWN in the gusts, not UP. I think you get that effect with a tighter leech high up and with a more-forward draft.

Some people are saying that is why the Goya Fringe is such a popular sail for foiling. It has more cloth up high.

Forward draft, more cloth up high, and higher leech tension up high are also characteristics of Sailworks Flyers.

My old Sailworks slalom sails have draft down low and further back with huge leech twist off. When a gust hits, they shoot forward and UP, requiring me to be VERY attentive to pitch. This is great for finning, but more difficult to foil. Yup, they are extremely stable, but their power dynamics are not optimized for foiling.

Hmmm, I'm going to have to dig out that Hucker and try it on the foil.

martyj4

534 posts

25 May 2021 5:38am

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LeeD said..
STABLE does not necessarily mean best for the application. We were talking stable, or less stable. Bump sailing, high wind, freestyle, stable has less influence.
But to say slalom sails are NOT stable.....think for yourself.
And yes.....always buy the latest and greatest gear, because.....it's the latest and greatest.
But be sure, in 1 or 2 years, your sail is slow, outdated, and completely not competitive.
Which says something.

Yet again LeeD, you are off on a tangent. Check the original posters question and there's no mention of stability. It's about suitability of the sail for the purpose.
I'm not saying slalom sails aren't stable. Never have. I'm questioning your advice based on a whole bunch of parameters that change a sails characteristics - like putting it on a mast that it's not designed for. I think you MIGHT find that it does change the sails characteristics and possibly stability. As Subsonic suggested above, it's not about latest and greatest -its about right sail for the job.
What I'm saying is going out and buying this slalom sail and then trying to modify it to do the job you want, may very well not end up with the desired result. It may be cheaper to wait for a foil specific sail that's dedicated for the job.
LeeD I'm critical of your advice because you're suggesting that foilarg takes a punt on a sail - it's not your money and you've (as per usual) got no proof that what your saying DOES actually work.
Foilarg - I'd take LeeD's "Expert" advice with a massive degree of caution.

LeeD

3939 posts

25 May 2021 5:47am

Is this about ALL or NOTHING?
Don't you already own slalom sails?
I have several quivers. All species for SDM...which is great for windsurfing.
Switch to RDM, the draft moves back for low end, the leech twists with less load for higher end, the shape ehind the mast is flatter and cleaner......all characteristics of foil sails!

Sailrepair

62 posts

25 May 2021 5:50am

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Severne Overdrive M3 for foilingFirst impressions - I have used the over drives on and off for many years on slalom boards and always found them to be a fast and pleasant to handle sail. When I first started foiling I was using overdrives but in my quest to conquer the flying gybe I changed to the Severne Turbo range of sails. Now that flying round gybes is no longer a consideration I thought it time to revisit my old friend the overdrive.The overdrive is a 7 batten sail with 3 cams and a moderately wide mast sleeve. The mast sleeve is not as wide as that on full on slalom style sails but it is considerably wider than that found on most brands 2 cam sails. As you would expect from Severne the sails are reasonably light. The sails have all the refinements of a race sail such as adjustable outhaul compatible clew fittings, neoprene boom opening cover and quad tack pulleys on the larger sails which make downhauuling a breeze. A notable point about the overdrives is that they can be used with either sdm or rdm masts by simply swapping the cams over. When I first did it I expected a lot of messing around with cam spacers but no, a straight swap of the cams and they worked great. I tend to use the sails from 7.0 downwards with rdm masts and the bigger sails I stick with sdm masts for best performance. On the water - When rigging the sails for foiling you can rig them with about 2cm less downhaul than you would if you were using them on a slalom board. They will still rotate well and they will have a tighter and more responsive to pumping leech. Talking of downhaul - on some of the sails the printed dimensions can be out a bit so even for a normal fin sailing set you might rig the sail with 2cm less than it says and for foiling it may be as much as 4cm less than the dimensions printed on the sail. The downhaul is quite critical to the wind range of the sail. Take the 7.8 for example rigged in foiling mode the sail will get you flying early and have the range of a good 7.5m sail. If you rig it to its slalom setting then it has the wind range of a good 7.0m sail, it will take more wind to get you going but you can then hang onto it into some seriously windy conditions.

Rigged for foiling

Rigged for high winds

Before you uphaul it is worth mentioning that water seldom gets into the large sleeve so it is rarely any problem to uphaul the sail. Getting flying is directly linked to what I said about the downhaul setting. Rigged for foiling the leech will have a useful spring to it letting you pump up onto the foil easily. In flight the Overdrive pulls steadily and aids stable flight. How the sail reacts to gusts will depend on how much downhaul you have on. When set with minimum downhaul the sail will accelerate forward without issue or drama. As the wind increases the pressure builds and you have to either sink into your harness to keep the board down for top speeds or alternatively back off a touch for a relaxed ride. If you have the sail set near the printed dimensions it will shrug off most gusts as if they were not there. In severe overpowering gusts if you have a lot of downhaul on the sail so that it has a very soft leech the sail can get a bit noisy if you have to fly half sheeted out but in such circumstances you really should be on a much smaller sail. The semi wide mast sleeve will see you cruising through holes in the wind which would see narrower sleeved sails coming off the foil. It is a combination of the wider sleeve plus a finer entry into the draft of the sail which increases the sail's efficiency. The less blunt leading edge also increase the angle you can sail into the wind.Gybing is straight forward and if the sail is rigged on a rdm mast the maneuverability is enhanced. For a 3 cam sail the Overdrive has few competitors for ease of rotation.Comparisons - Compared to the Severne Turbo the overdrive has a bit more "slippy through the air" feeling. The Overdrive has a higher top end but maybe not as good a low end as the Turbo. I would certainly recommend a turbo as your first foiling sail but I would not do the same with the Overdrive. The Overdrive suits sailors who have been foiling for a while and looking for the next step towards faster foiling. Compared to full race and foil race sails the Overdrive is lighter and more maneuverable but ultimately not quite as efficient but you would have to be very good on the foil to notice. Compared to foil specific sails like the Pryde V8 flight the Overdives are easier in gusty conditions, you would easily be able to hold onto a Overdrive in winds that would see you changing down many foil sails.Overall - I would certainly recommend the Overdrive to anyone just wanting to go quick on a foil. By "quick" I mean relative to the windspeed. The sails ability to cruise through holes in the wind is impressive and while some people may be put off by the size of the mast sleeve and the mention of camber inducers the overdrive feels light and easy.

Severne Overdrive

Category: Sails

LeeD

3939 posts

25 May 2021 5:52am

What? YOU have to buy brand new? Is your skill level at the pros?
I suppose now you're gonna tell me about cam rotation problems?
NP foil sails are over $1,000 here in US.
You need 3.
That's the problem.
Plus 2 fuses for course racing, and 2 foils.

martyj4

534 posts

25 May 2021 6:24am

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LeeD said..
Is this about ALL or NOTHING?
Don't you already own slalom sails?
I have several quivers. All species for SDM...which is great for windsurfing.
Switch to RDM, the draft moves back for low end, the leech twists with less load for higher end, the shape ehind the mast is flatter and cleaner......all characteristics of foil sails!

No. Yet again you're carrying on like a complete w4nk3r.
It's about foilarg taking a punt on a sail that he's not able to rig and try on non-recommended gear to see if it will work for his purpose.
Lots of possibilities exist. I'm not saying it won't work. Just that there's no proof it will. There's plenty of varying opinions so far. Depends on the mast he's intending to use. Or a different mast that he's got to buy later to get it to work.
Not everyone has bucket loads of gear that they can try out with a second hand sail to see if it will function as desired. I think foilarg has already stated budget doesn't allow him to buy new. Perhaps he doesn't have a bucket load of spare gear/masts he can use to see if it's all compatible.
Not like you LeeD. You've got everything hey?

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