Don't forget, even on a windsurfing planing jibe, you have to back off the carve as you exit from dead downwind.
Also, well powered allows for both tight and long jibes.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

Actually, I carve as much as they do, BUT they straighten out after the initial carve as they flip the sail, I on the other hand keep carving.

Yes, that's it. The initial carve is released at this point. Once you've flipped the sail, you can turn back up wind and accelerate. If one keeps carving through that phase, it's way too easy to carve too far upwind and lose power.

boardsurfr, to clarigy, the sail flip is a rotation, not a "flagging out". And, downwind is not straight downwind but a very broad reach. You are correct that after the flip, they turn back upwind but I think it becomes confusing to someone trying to visualize the initial carve if we speak of that as the same carve. They'll carry through way too fast through the sail flip and end up way too high by which time they've run out of energy. And, it makes it super critical to make the flip at the precise moment with no bobble.

It's better, imho, to let them see it as finishing the jibe very broad and then adjusting course as needed (which, if one is doing a downwinder, may not be much at all).

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..
boardsurfr, to clarigy, the sail flip is a rotation, not a "flagging out". And, downwind is not straight downwind but a very broad reach.

Well, the sail flip should be a rotation, but when things go wrong, it's often not. And one of the problems that can happen is that the boom does not come around to the other side, something windsurf instructors call "flagging out".

If you flatten the board during the sail rotation in a sail-first jibe, you are more likely to run into these problems. Racers do step jibes since they typically jibe when the board speed is much higher than the wind speed. Then, a sail-first jibe simply does not work because the apparent wind comes from the front when going downwind. If you'd let go of the clew hand, nothing would happen (or if you opened the sail first, the clew would actually go the wrong way).

Asail-first jibe works best when the wind speed is higher than board speed,so the apparent wind comes from the back of the board when dead downwind. That's why you see it a lot in Maui, where board speeds are 20 knots in 30+ knot winds, or on freeride foils with small sails. If you stop carving while the sail rotates in a sail-first jibe when going downwind, the wind from the back will mean that the clew just point straight to the front, like a flag. That makes grabbing the boom on the new side hard to impossible. If the board speed is close to wind speed, you can sometimes get around this by pushing with the clew hand instead of just releasing, but that won't work in strong wind.

Interestingly, windsurfers trying to learn planing jibes often have the same two problems, which boil down to "stopping the carve" at the wrong time. If you stop too late, you go too far upwind. That's a common problem with the step jibe, and often includes stepping and rotating too late (nicknamed "carve fascination"). If you stop the carve too early, you have a hard time getting to the new side of the boom, and powering up again. For windsurfers, that's often a wobble in the middle of the jibe due to poor foot placement.

The big difference on the foil is that you loose a lot less speed, so it's possible to flatten out the board when going downwind. Nico Goyard had some extremely wide jibes when beating the PWA slalom racers in Israel. In the video from Lake Garda, though, the flattening was just very brief, and during the foot step. The board has to wobble when you move your feet, and that wobble better be so the board is flatter - if you increase the carve, a crash is more likely. In the sail-first jibe, the feet move a lot later, so you carve through the sail flip.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
Don't forget, even on a windsurfing planing jibe, you have to back off the carve as you exit from dead downwind.
Also, well powered allows for both tight and long jibes.

thanks LeeD, really did not realize I needed to do that

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

Paducah said..
boardsurfr, to clarigy, the sail flip is a rotation, not a "flagging out". And, downwind is not straight downwind but a very broad reach.

Well, the sail flip should be a rotation, but when things go wrong, it's often not. And one of the problems that can happen is that the boom does not come around to the other side, something windsurf instructors call "flagging out".

If you flatten the board during the sail rotation in a sail-first jibe, you are more likely to run into these problems. Racers do step jibes since they typically jibe when the board speed is much higher than the wind speed. Then, a sail-first jibe simply does not work because the apparent wind comes from the front when going downwind. If you'd let go of the clew hand, nothing would happen (or if you opened the sail first, the clew would actually go the wrong way).

Asail-first jibe works best when the wind speed is higher than board speed,so the apparent wind comes from the back of the board when dead downwind. That's why you see it a lot in Maui, where board speeds are 20 knots in 30+ knot winds, or on freeride foils with small sails. If you stop carving while the sail rotates in a sail-first jibe when going downwind, the wind from the back will mean that the clew just point straight to the front, like a flag. That makes grabbing the boom on the new side hard to impossible. If the board speed is close to wind speed, you can sometimes get around this by pushing with the clew hand instead of just releasing, but that won't work in strong wind.

Interestingly, windsurfers trying to learn planing jibes often have the same two problems, which boil down to "stopping the carve" at the wrong time. If you stop too late, you go too far upwind. That's a common problem with the step jibe, and often includes stepping and rotating too late (nicknamed "carve fascination"). If you stop the carve too early, you have a hard time getting to the new side of the boom, and powering up again. For windsurfers, that's often a wobble in the middle of the jibe due to poor foot placement.

The big difference on the foil is that you loose a lot less speed, so it's possible to flatten out the board when going downwind. Nico Goyard had some extremely wide jibes when beating the PWA slalom racers in Israel. In the video from Lake Garda, though, the flattening was just very brief, and during the foot step. The board has to wobble when you move your feet, and that wobble better be so the board is flatter - if you increase the carve, a crash is more likely. In the sail-first jibe, the feet move a lot later, so you carve through the sail flip.

Oh yeah, I was definitely into carve fascination!