I am wondering what the effect of a bigger wing like the infinty 99 or moses 1100 does for smaller vs bigger riders in light wind.

I am freeriding and like to use as small a sail as possible. 8-12kts on a 6.0 and infinity 76 front wing, 65kgs. I think the stall speed is like 7/8kts for the i76. I have seen foilers 90kgs plus foiling in light winds on the i99 or 1100 front wings with huge success.
Interested to hear what benefits light guys like me get from the super large front wings( i99 or 1100)
My goal would be to either be able to use a smaller sail in the same wind or get foiling in even lighter winds

I'm not racing or into hitting high speeds, just want to cruise around on a small board(wizard 105) in light winds with slow arcing turns or ride down a few small waves. Don't mind pumping around with very little sail power for a few hundred feet. From what I find the i76 is not the best wing to pump but sorta works, that's probably the only thing it doesn't do super well.

Do you start foiling at 8 kts of wind with a 6.0 and a 76infinity?

8 kts of wind for any size sail is wishful thinking unless you are a pro formula racer on a 12.5 who can pump their lights out all the way around a course. There is not enough kinetic energy in 8 kts of wind to make anything happen in our sport, including windfoiling.

10-12 kts begins to work well if you are light enough in weight, have a big enough sail, and a big enough wing. Windfoilers in Seattle use the i84 and i99 with 8.5 and bigger sails in these light winds.

At 93 kg, my low-wind minimum threshold is 12 kts with a i76 and a 7.0 sail. This is a realistic minimum for most of us freeride amateurs.

Don't be looking to get much riding in less than 10-12 kts. Some people do, but for most of us, we will just be disappointed. I don't even rig up until I can see at least an occasional whitecap.

Yes, windfoiling is billed as a light wind alternative to windsurf slogging. That's fine, but you still need enough wind to get you and your gear moving at enough speed to plane the board and fly the wing. 8 kts won't do it.

For the i99 I have a levitator 150 and typically use a 5.7. If there is more wind than that I usually switch to freestyle 115/i76 and 5.7.

I have used the i99 with my 4.7 once, and I believe I probably got going earlier than my i76/5.7 combo, but it is not such a big difference that I feel the need to do it again.

On a side note. I do not think you will have success with the i99 on the wizard 105 at your weight.

Listen to Segler.
At 73 kgs., a Naish 122 with 1220 wing and 5.2 gets me up and going in 12 knot gusts with pumping.
Nobody else is going except for racers with 8 meters or wingers pumping hard with 5's.
I just switched to a 600 kitewing....about the same with maybe a few more pumps to build a bit more speed.
Still need 12 knots.
Guys smaller than me on bigger slalom boards get going in the same breeze using 7.5 meter sails and hard pumping.

Interesting reading. Lot's of different results for different people.

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excav8ter said..
Interesting reading. Lot's of different results for different people.

We don't know if it's foiling at 12 knots and holding in lull at 8 knts and if he wants to improve this? This is what I assumed anyways. But a bigger wing might hold on in lulls better, but would it make him foil sooner I think is the question...or using a smaller sail?

A dissenting opinion. I've had complete days where I've barely seen a white cap. I'm admittedly lighter (about 70 ish bare) but my biggest sail is a 7.7. With a surfish thick cambered 1500 wing, I get started easily in 9 kts and can continue down to 5 or 6. Going to a less draggy freerace 1000 wing only adds maybe a knot to my threshold. I've seen my 90kg buddy on a Moses 1100 do silly things around 10 kts with a 6.0. (The Moses is a different animal than the i99 though - higher aspect means it's a bit more slippery).

1000 wing, 7.7 sail. summer at 300m altitude.

I'd guess that there is a linear relation between wing size and body weight, but a square relation to wind speed. In other words, bigger guys can benefit quite a bit from larger wings (for freeriding), but the payoff for light weights is more limited.

It's a bit different for race foils and large sails, where pumping generates the speed and apparent wind needed to get going at the low end. Winging is also a bit different because it can be done at a lower speed, since the wing supports some of the body weight, instead of a rig adding weight. So larger foils with lower stall speeds can make more sense even for lighter people when winging.

That's all just guessing, though. It would be interesting to hear from light weights who have tried bigger front wings.

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NordRoi said..
Do you start foiling at 8 kts of wind with a 6.0 and a 76infinity?

No probably not taking off in 8kts, fly through 8kt lulls though. I get going in the gusts ~10 kts. 253m altitude. Probably can fly my 5.2 in 12kts minimum. well before white caps just need some small ripples. Usually with aggressive pumping. I use a 6.0 twin cam v8 which is a powerful sail and have an adjustable outhaul system.
Lately the winds been 7-20kts; small gusty lake. Powered up nicely in the gusts but have to work to stay up in lulls and would drop down a lot. The waves are small so dont really get much extra lift from them in that wind on the i76. Still fun though
Have done long down wind pumping runs using small waves. Full body pumping the board and sail. Its amazing how light of wind it can keep flying in. But I'm sure I can do better on a bigger wing, how much who knows. Will have to try it sometime.

Not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I'm happy with my two wings for the conditions they can cover; time code 68 and infinity 76. Just exploring the idea of a even bigger wing. With new gear coming out soon who knows what foils or wings we will be riding 4 months from now. As Paducah mentioned the moses 1100 is a higher aspect shape with a thinner profile compared to the infinity 99. Maybe that's a better option, less drag, slightly higher top speed?

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Paducah said..
A dissenting opinion. I've had complete days where I've barely seen a white cap. I'm admittedly lighter (about 70 ish bare) but my biggest sail is a 7.7. With a surfish thick cambered 1500 wing, I get started easily in 9 kts and can continue down to 5 or 6. Going to a less draggy freerace 1000 wing only adds maybe a knot to my threshold. I've seen my 90kg buddy on a Moses 1100 do silly things around 10 kts with a 6.0. (The Moses is a different animal than the i99 though - higher aspect means it's a bit more slippery).

1000 wing, 7.7 sail. summer at 300m altitude.

Nice video. I think at those sorts of wind speeds it is always going to be tricky to verify how little wind someone can get going in, because we need less wind to stay on the foil than to get up on the foil.

With a good puff I can get up on big stuff and keep going a long ways in less wind.

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CAN17 said..

NordRoi said..
Do you start foiling at 8 kts of wind with a 6.0 and a 76infinity?

No probably not taking off in 8kts, fly through 8kt lulls though. I get going in the gusts ~10 kts. 253m altitude. Probably can fly my 5.2 in 12kts minimum. well before white caps just need some small ripples. Usually with aggressive pumping. I use a 6.0 twin cam v8 which is a powerful sail and have an adjustable outhaul system.
Lately the winds been 7-20kts; small gusty lake. Powered up nicely in the gusts but have to work to stay up in lulls and would drop down a lot. The waves are small so dont really get much extra lift from them in that wind on the i76. Still fun though
Have down long down wind pumping runs using small waves. Full body pumping the board and sail. Its amazing how light of wind it can keep flying in. But I'm sure I can do better on a bigger wing, how much who knows. Will have to try it sometime.

Not trying to reinvent the weel here. I'm happy with my two wings for the conditions they can cover; time code 68 and infinity 76. Just exploring the idea of a even bigger wing. With new gear coming out soon who knows what foils or wings we will be riding 4 months from now. As Paducah mentioned the moses 1100 is a higher aspect shape with a thinner profile compared to the infinity 99. Maybe that's a better option, less drag, slightly higher top speed?

You will definitely see increase the amount of fun you have in lighter wind by adding the i99.

Another thing is that an appropriately powered big wing will go up wind much better than an underpowered smaller wing.

Bigger wings help the lift. lighter riders will be able to get up earlier. Larger sails help with power. Larger boards allow you plane a little earlier as well. All said, I'm in search for the lightest air foiling here at 6000ft. I have a SB 1100 front wing with the long fuse and can usually get lift off with a small gust and some pumping with 11mph winds. Similarly, I tried one of the larger slingshot wings on a SS board in the same wind and have had issues lifting off (due to the board friction through water).

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Paducah said..
A dissenting opinion. I've had complete days where I've barely seen a white cap. I'm admittedly lighter (about 70 ish bare) but my biggest sail is a 7.7. With a surfish thick cambered 1500 wing, I get started easily in 9 kts and can continue down to 5 or 6. Going to a less draggy freerace 1000 wing only adds maybe a knot to my threshold. I've seen my 90kg buddy on a Moses 1100 do silly things around 10 kts with a 6.0. (The Moses is a different animal than the i99 though - higher aspect means it's a bit more slippery).

1000 wing, 7.7 sail. summer at 300m altitude.

Nice video, how much you estimate the gust, the one that is coming when you pumped?

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segler said..
8 kts of wind for any size sail is wishful thinking unless you are a pro formula racer on a 12.5 who can pump their lights out all the way around a course. There is not enough kinetic energy in 8 kts of wind to make anything happen in our sport, including windfoiling.

10-12 kts begins to work well if you are light enough in weight, have a big enough sail, and a big enough wing. Windfoilers in Seattle use the i84 and i99 with 8.5 and bigger sails in these light winds.

At 93 kg, my low-wind minimum threshold is 12 kts with a i76 and a 7.0 sail. This is a realistic minimum for most of us freeride amateurs.

Don't be looking to get much riding in less than 10-12 kts. Some people do, but for most of us, we will just be disappointed. I don't even rig up until I can see at least an occasional whitecap.

Yes, windfoiling is billed as a light wind alternative to windsurf slogging. That's fine, but you still need enough wind to get you and your gear moving at enough speed to plane the board and fly the wing. 8 kts won't do it.

Hi Segler,

I hardly ever see a white cap, am jealous of your location. Will go foiling if NOAA forecast is for 9+mph, and can see some dark grey ripple areas on the lake. These might be gusts above 12-15mph.

Thought whitecaps started at 15knots (17mph). If there are whitecaps, FoilGlide 7m will be overpowered, however it works well with i84 foil in windspeeds below that, and down to 8-9knots, though needs a gust to start.

Also, the i84 foils before the board planes, whereas the gamma 68 and NP Pinkie need planing speed before foiling (am 82kg). Maybe the i76 is in between these, and CAN17 can get 65kg going on i76 before planing speed, and even slower foiling speeds for i99.

I sail at the end of an 8 mile fetch, so whitecaps at 7 knots breeze.

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NordRoi said..

Paducah said..
A dissenting opinion. I've had complete days where I've barely seen a white cap. I'm admittedly lighter (about 70 ish bare) but my biggest sail is a 7.7. With a surfish thick cambered 1500 wing, I get started easily in 9 kts and can continue down to 5 or 6. Going to a less draggy freerace 1000 wing only adds maybe a knot to my threshold. I've seen my 90kg buddy on a Moses 1100 do silly things around 10 kts with a 6.0. (The Moses is a different animal than the i99 though - higher aspect means it's a bit more slippery).

1000 wing, 7.7 sail. summer at 300m altitude.

Nice video, how much you estimate the gust, the one that is coming when you pumped?

Thank you. My thanks to my friends in both the boat and flying the drone. This was a totally happenstance meeting.

Maybe 9-10 knots? I'm trying to be conservative. The water was ruffled in the puff- that velvet texture - just short of white caps. Once up, of course, we need less wind. The fetch there is maybe 2-3 km.

Well, when you pump, and the sail backwinds on recovery.....there is not enough breeze to get going.
Today, 5-12 mph max...6.6 2 cam bagged, only the highest puffs allowed pumping onto a plane, then foil.

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Paducah said..

NordRoi said..

Paducah said..
A dissenting opinion. I've had complete days where I've barely seen a white cap. I'm admittedly lighter (about 70 ish bare) but my biggest sail is a 7.7. With a surfish thick cambered 1500 wing, I get started easily in 9 kts and can continue down to 5 or 6. Going to a less draggy freerace 1000 wing only adds maybe a knot to my threshold. I've seen my 90kg buddy on a Moses 1100 do silly things around 10 kts with a 6.0. (The Moses is a different animal than the i99 though - higher aspect means it's a bit more slippery).

1000 wing, 7.7 sail. summer at 300m altitude.

Nice video, how much you estimate the gust, the one that is coming when you pumped?

Thank you. My thanks to my friends in both the boat and flying the drone. This was a totally happenstance meeting.

Maybe 9-10 knots? I'm trying to be conservative. The water was ruffled in the puff- that velvet texture - just short of white caps. Once up, of course, we need less wind. The fetch there is maybe 2-3 km.

Paducah.

A role model of graciousness.

Thanks for helping us improve our foiling, while taking care of any inadvertent impact on our self esteem.

Happy foiling.

Apart from using bigger wings with lower stall speed, in lulls I try to ride higher - less drag/more speed is very noticeable, plus more room to float down before touching down, overall can help to keep you flying as you hunt for the next gust - I think the top racers stay high as much as possible, which tests your reflexes in chop!

So question is: If all we care about is getting up in fly mode on the foil, how big should the foil wing surface/wingspan be before adding additional size will not increase the lift further?

Aka with the Infinity, we have gone from 76, to 84, now to 91.
Will next be a 101cm wing? Or why not aka a 120cm?
When does the additional drag and weight add more negatives than positives, when increasing the wing size, if all we care about is the lift power?

I am also surprised why surf mags have not long ago setup the test benches to crunch out these numbers?
Put aka the infinity foils into the bench, then set the water speed at 15 knots. Then measure the upwards lift power each size produce. and afterwards across the different brands.

And while you are at it, measure the resistance they cause at the same time. (Essentially a measure, which converst into the power you need to compensate for when holding your sail)
And then measure the sideways resistance they also offer, which will tell the ability to hold height up against the wind.

Such tests used to be standard in the old windsurfing days, done by the German Surf mag and national test institutes...

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CAN17 said..
I am wondering what the effect of a bigger wing like the infinty 99 or moses 1100 does for smaller vs bigger riders in light wind.

I am freeriding and like to use as small a sail as possible. 8-12kts on a 6.0 and infinity 76 front wing, 65kgs. I think the stall speed is like 7/8kts for the i76. I have seen foilers 90kgs plus foiling in light winds on the i99 or 1100 front wings with huge success.
Interested to hear what benefits light guys like me get from the super large front wings( i99 or 1100)
My goal would be to either be able to use a smaller sail in the same wind or get foiling in even lighter winds

I'm not racing or into hitting high speeds, just want to cruise around on a small board(wizard 105) in light winds with slow arcing turns or ride down a few small waves. Don't mind pumping around with very little sail power for a few hundred feet. From what I find the i76 is not the best wing to pump but sorta works, that's probably the only thing it doesn't do super well.

CAN17, i am after the exact same thing as you are - dont care about how fast i go, but simply just want to fly on my foil in as low wind as possible!

Regarding wingsize and what it can do to help a rider at a certain weight, then you can get some ideas also by looking at the graph i made some months back, after we collected a lot of data points from various windfoilers on this forum. I wish we had more data points, as a few are not making conclusive data lines, but still think it can help us to get an idea what a wingsize does for a certain rider weight. Aka the 90kg rider using a 84cm wing versus a 76cm, appear to be able to fly at 2-3 knots less wind speed, while using the same sail size...

I use a timecode 68 and infinity 84 and a max sail size of 5.8. I can be up and foiling easily before normal windsurfers get going on a 9m.
Our local anemometer will be reading an average of 10knots with gusts to 14. I'm 89kg on a 131L Naish Micro hover.

The 84 is a complete game changer. And quite fast for a low aspect foil. It is basically like changing up sail by 1.5/2m.

Hi. I'd like to know what happen if you use big wings with small sails being a light rider regarding wind range. For example a 1700-2000 cm2 can help you with a 5 m2 sail in 12 knots and 70 kg, but what happen if the wind suddenly increases to 17 knots or more? What you win in 10 knots is what you lose as low as , let's say, 16 -18 knots?
I guess some big wings would have broader wind range than others. Which are the best foils regarding this? I've read supercruiser stands well in bigger winds.
rgds

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Paducah said..
A dissenting opinion. I've had complete days where I've barely seen a white cap. I'm admittedly lighter (about 70 ish bare) but my biggest sail is a 7.7. With a surfish thick cambered 1500 wing, I get started easily in 9 kts and can continue down to 5 or 6. Going to a less draggy freerace 1000 wing only adds maybe a knot to my threshold. I've seen my 90kg buddy on a Moses 1100 do silly things around 10 kts with a 6.0. (The Moses is a different animal than the i99 though - higher aspect means it's a bit more slippery).

1000 wing, 7.7 sail. summer at 300m altitude.

What a great video! Amazing how much yaw you induce with your pumping motion. Once you're up it doesn't really look like you're moving all that fast until the ski boat comes into frame with a big bone in its teeth!

I was out today on Lake Ontario across from Amherst Island and just east of Bath (for those inclined you can probably zoom in using google earth or whatever). I was on my Levitator 150 with a Sailworks Flyer 6.0 and the i99 with a 90 cm. mast. Wind was in the 7 to 12 or 13 range -- there were some lazy whitecaps. Where I usually fiol there often aren't any whitecaps at these lower wind speeds. I was on foil in 10 or so and the lulls once I was up really didn't exist -- never came off foil. That's the beauty of these big foils -- they just about glide through anything and you don't have to do any work (like pumping).

Don't let the naysayers dissuade you from trying a big foil like the i99 or Moses 1100.

Here's Blaz Muller on the Moses 1100 with a wind wing (which I need more wind to get going than when I windfoil). Yes, he's in a league of his own but he does show what is possible in very low winds (6 to 7 knots) -- he should be inspiring us to try harder and get better even in low winds!

I'm 65kg and sais with either an AFS foil with a 750 cm2 wing. I also recently bought a Moses with the 1000 cm2 wing (W683S). I sail with a 7.0 Sailworks Flyer.

I believe I can take-off in gusts just above 10 knts. As others, once on the foil I can fly in lower winds.

As of the minimum flying speed, it is about the square root of a ratio Surface / weight. So for a same foil family, a 50% heavier rider (and gear) would need a 50% bigger wing to have the same minimum flying speed. We are discussing board speed here, not wind speed.

Take-off speed is another things. The need is to overcome the board drag, and reach the minimum flying speed. I feel that as a bump to overcome.

Because of my lack of technique, I feel more limited by the size of the sail to overcome the bump. Once I feel a good resistance in the sail, I can pump the sail with by bad technique and I take-off fast. Until I don't feel that resistance in the sail, I'm stucked.

I had done back of the envelope calculations that with the 750 cm2 wing I would need to reach something like 6.5 knots to take-off, and with a 1500cm2, it would be more around 4 knots. As I'm not an expert, those figures may be wrong.

JMF

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jmf1 said..
I'm 65kg and sais with either an AFS foil with a 750 cm2 wing.

If it's in the budget and you are more freeride than speed oriented, consider an F800 wing. I adore mine.

So going thru the thread, the question is, do you think there is a threshold where bigger will have too much drag and will be counter productive? What I see in Balz video is, he is mostly prone surfing then use the wing once in a while with the little swell that is coming in, I guess a big front wing must help. But if a dude is less good at pumping the board and the wing, what front wing will be the best for your weight..and is bigger better?

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Paducah said..

jmf1 said..
I'm 65kg and sais with either an AFS foil with a 750 cm2 wing.

If it's in the budget and you are more freeride than speed oriented, consider an F800 wing. I adore mine.

I will "explore" the Moses 683 for a while. Then I will have to choose beetwen the AFS and the Moses. Tough choice. On french windsurfing33 forum, people use to say that the F800 is easy and flies early, but feels "locked" and not so "playful". I use the R800 (now S800) which I find you can drive as you want, with a freerace bias.

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NordRoi said..
So going thru the thread, the question is, do you think there is a threshold where bigger will have too much drag and will be counter productive? What I see in Balz video is, he is mostly prone surfing then use the wing once in a while with the little swell that is coming in, I guess a big front wing must help. But if a dude is less good at pumping the board and the wing, what front wing will be the best for your weight..and is bigger better?

I believe there is such a threshold. For race wings, with Aspect Ratio, surfaces are in the 800-1000 cm2. Low drag to get speed and create relative wind. Good riders don't seem to need more to plane super early. May need to pump longer/better to build speed and take-off. So over that surface is counter productive

The other route is bigger wings with not too much drag, to be popped out of the water and then stay flying "slow".

What is sure is that the benefit is not propotional to the surface.