Saw a guy yesterday try wing foiling for the first time, was 9-12 knots, he had windsurfed for 20 years and kiteboarded since 1998, but only once kitefoiled for one run. He never got up, and was only trying by kneeling. And was exhausted to boot! Unless you have a harness line on the wing and hook in, it has to take a lot more energy than windfoiling hooked in in the same conditions.

Wing needs steady 15 to learn.
Gotta stand up to clear the wing to stay upwind.

I have 37 years shortboard experience, can loop both directions on kite, have windfoiledfor 2 seasons, now with 9 days on wing.......and still never foiled on wing.
6 of those days were 2-10, one 20+ bit no foil.
Gotta have the right conditions.
Like learning to windsurf in 2-25, very hard.

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LeeD said..
Wing needs steady 15 to learn.
Gotta stand up to clear the wing to stay upwind.

Exactly!!

Wingfoiling is lighter than windfoiling and quite easy to learn, if you have the right conditions! Steady 15 is best, 14-20 is acceptable ;). Below 12 knots is hard to get started for the average joe.

Yes, 2-22 is hard learning conditions.
My 1st day windfoiling started 10-16, gradually deteriorating to 1-23.
Could fly until lulls of 10 at first. Impossible for my low level in gusts over 21.
Need decent steady breeze to start any wind powered sport.
Now, 150 days later, cannot fly in 8 and struggle in 23+, same foil and same 5.2 sail. Struggle means hard upwind in gusts and racing downwind angles to get back to launch.

And the water conditions play a huge part, 15 knots in an open bay or ocean is going to be extremely difficult. But get 15 knots blowing over a sheltered spot from the chop and things are a lot easier.

Majority of people learning to wing use too small of a board because its cool and trendy, so the learning curve is an absolute ass ache

If we thought windsurfing marketing made small is cool thing difficult over 2 decades, the wing kit has already managed it in less than a year.

The funniest is listening to kiters as they think a big board is 4' 8" and wonder why they are swimming around the whole time.

90 kg/200 lbs with a 6.4 wing, board over 6' 2" around 120-130 liters, low aspect foil will easily wing in 10-15 mph

Cool.
I was hoping a 6 meter wing would fly my 75 kgs with a 1220 wing and 122 liter board.
That wind is also perfect for windfoil.....

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LeeD said..
Cool.
I was hoping a 6 meter wing would fly my 75 kgs with a 1220 wing and 122 liter board.
That wind is also perfect for windfoil.....

Why not get a bigger wing and make everything easy for yourself (winging)? You can always sell it later if you decide to only use the 1220.

I windfoil with a 600 sq cm wing.....no need for bigger.
Hopefully, double that is enough to wing.

Winging for me (10 sessions, foiled at least briefly in all but one) is harder physically than wavesailing. Windfoiling isn't physically hard at all, if it was any easier it would be kiting.

I'm just barely scratching the maneuver potential on the wing. Specifically the ability to ride toe side and even tack on the foil seems to open up the ability to ride swell and even breaking waves almost entirely like a foil SUP but without the paddling.

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LeeD said..
I windfoil with a 600 sq cm wing.....no need for bigger.
Hopefully, double that is enough to wing.

Well I was comparing your claim with the conclusions of the AC75s as a result of their multimillion dollar research budget.




The rules limit the span to 4 metres, they look to average a little less than 0.5 metres in chord, so that's about 1.5 square metres. 15,000 sq cm. For 7.5 tonnes. That's 2 sq cm per kilogram. But they aim for speeds of 15 to 50 knots where windfoilers aim for 7.5 to 25 knots. Loading at optimum angles of attack goes up with the square of velocity so to be in the sweet spot as calculated by American Magic we should go best with a wing loading of 8 sq cm per kilogram. So if rider and gear comes out at about 90 kg that's 720 sq cm going on AC75 reckoning.

You're close to the mark LeeD

AC75's have two things that windfoils don't though; adjustable rudder pitch (we can adjust stab angle on most brands but not during flight) and flaps on the main foil. In racing terms this gives them a range of adjustability that is not available to us. This leads windfoils (race kit) to basically make a compromise and that compromise is usually for best VMG upwind, which is why most race foils have a super high lift high aspect 900 or 1000 front wing. This is actually way to much for downwind as anyone who races foils can testify that off the breeze they can be a handful. I have actually experimented with smaller main wings. I heavily modified a wing to about 730cm^2 but it's still super high aspect and wide. It's as you would expect very fast off the breeze but it just loses too much VMG upwind compared to the bigger wing setup to be faster around a race course. Of course if it had flaps and in flight adjustable stab pitch this would be a very very different story...so basically a moth then

So basically yes that size is probably optimal....but it's complicated. In my opinion Leed would be far better off with a bigger wing as it's far easier to use in almost all situations and the number of days he mentions vs progression indicates that. I can foil in very similar conditions with the 730 vs the 900 race foil wing (even a 550) but in almost all wind strengths bar super windy it's far far easier on the bigger wing, it flies with far less effort and is way more stable both in pitch and laterally.

RE winging I found it relatively easy to learn, IE I was foiling along in a straight line no problems after a few minutes in flat water and 15kts or so. But I reckon if you don't have a windfoil background it's going to be a lot harder to learn. I'd also say kiters will find it harder to learn than windsurfers and someone who has never done either sport, or even sailing is going to have a very hard time.

Like learning anything you have to make it as easy as possible, as the others have mentioned above. Nice constant 15kts or so, bigish board and flat water. Complicate any element and it's going to be that much harder.

I find the 600 is much easier than the 1220.
Less drag, more predictable, easier to feel speed, jibes precise.
Yes, low end at 7-13 is lacking, but top end control in 15+ winds is way better.
We almost never get steady 15 mph winds. Usually it dies below 7 or comes up to 20.
My very few foiling jibes were all done with the 600. Counting maybe my 50 best tries, maybe a handful with the 1220.
I've used both wings about the same # of days at the end of our season.
Disagree, for me, the bigger wing is easier in most conditions.

For winging the most common sizes I see here are around 1800cm2 for low aspects and 1500cm2 for higher aspect wings. Bigger and they are too slow to pump properly (without wingpower), smaller and they lack power to get going with the wing. The overall tendency is towards higher aspect wings at the moment, but nowhere near as high aspect as found in windfoiling. I believe around 6-6.5 aspect ratio!

My brand (F-One) has HA (Phantom line) wings in 980,1080,1280,1480 and 1780, and i think 1080 and 1480 would be the best combo for most, maybe 1280 and 1780 if you're 100+kg (220+lbs). This goes for both lake freeriding / freestyle and downwinders at sea. Low aspect is not my cup of tea, but honestly I know no wingfoilers who prefer the low-aspect (4.6AR for 1800) Gravity line of foilwings for winging after having tried the Phantom, except maybe for the initial learning phase to get acquainted to the speed.

My first sessions 2 years ago were on a foilsup (no wing specific boards available back then and the wing was a prototype), 124L and 7'11". My favorite board now is 5'10" and 105L, but I'm not that good yet. Only did it a handful of times although flying jibes are no issue. Might go down in size to 5'4"/75L or maybe even the 4'8"/48L if I do it more often, but would have to learn to waterstart first ;)! (I'm 92kg btw)

Makes sense.
1080-1480 for 92 kg rider.
I'm 75 kg, always use smaller sails than anyone nearly my size. Also smaller boards.
Couple of racers use 90cm super hi aspect wings, maybe 800 sq cm, by Zaicheck, for their wing experience.
Unless wind is 7-15, which almost never happens, I fine.
In sub 15, I'd rather windfoil than wing because we always have a 200 yard slog to anywhere near the windline.

A few variables, but I thought it worth noting that windfoilers and AC75s, at the opposite end of the foiling spectrum, are still on the same page when it comes to foil sizing.

Moths use front wings of about 1000sq cm for the same weight and speeds. Flaps and a fully adjustable 8 sq metre sail, although they can't pump as effectively.

Freeriders tend to avoid adjustable outhauls though. Would your 92 kg freerider be better off with 1080 and an adjustable outhaul rather than a 1480 foil?

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Ian K said..
A few variables, but I thought it worth noting that windfoilers and AC75s, at the opposite end of the foiling spectrum, are still on the same page when it comes to foil sizing.

Moths use front wings of about 1000sq cm for the same weight and speeds. Flaps and a fully adjustable 8 sq metre sail, although they can't pump as effectively.

Freeriders tend to avoid adjustable outhauls though. Would your 92 kg freerider be better off with 1080 and an adjustable outhaul rather than a 1480 foil?

An adjustable outhaul doesnt make that huge of a difference in the bottom-end, thats more of a top-end thing. Letting off your outhaul a lot distorts the sail profile, your sail was designed to sit in a certain way, which is with some outhaul tension. In the top-end the difference is quite large because adding outhaul stabilizes the preassure point of the sail.

To be clear, the 1080 - 1480cm foil sizes are what I see used for winging, not windfoiling! In windfoiling most people around here have 800 - 1100cm2 (for freeride). Bigger wings (eg I76) seem to lose popularity here for windfoil (NL, but more generally in Europe aswell), it was already quite low in popularity compared to AU and USA, but recently I see people using those foils for windfoil (wave / freemove type foilers) switching to wingfoiling a lot, with more freerace & faster type windfoilers generally sticking to the windfoil. I think it is due to the speed sensation for wing and windfoil with those big wings is similar, but winging offers even more freedom in terms of manouvrability and use in waves!

I was using adjustable outhauls quite a bit at one point (6.4 to 7.8) you could really bag the sail to get pumping and trim the sail nicely when powered through a gust, so they work very well!

Its a good job there are many choices for foils and wings, the higher aspect are good for top end speed, race course and mowing the lawn etc.

For our local patch the low aspects wings win, the holes are bigger than the coast, and turn better in the swells and so the i76 and i84 keeps you motoring for both winging and wind foiling.

CoreAS -- we need you to do a review of the Slingshot Dart wind wing.

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dejavu said..
CoreAS -- we need you to do a review of the Slingshot Dart wind wing.

I will at some point when I get one! The design is pretty radical looking and I'm not sure I'm skilled enough yet to push it through its paces.

I have a new wing board arrived this week the Takuma TK110 carbon (6' x 27'), looks the business, and we have wind the next few days so I can test it.

"There's probably about 10 - 12 guys already in the team who've got this stuff"

Paul Goodison the American Magic wing trimmer.

Paul Goodison is the current nautical "Voice of Reason". He is clearly heard in the American Magic post crash analysis advising the Helmsman that the left gate option was a difficult manoeuvre.

(That Kiwi PPC surge wing looks pretty tidy as far as wingdings go.)