Hey White, when you say ease in the gusts in 8-25, what sail(s) are you using?

I live near the **very gusty** Columbia gorge. I will be looking at getting sails this coming summer. I need gust-proof sails.

Yes, I have done a lot of studying about no-cam versus cammed sails for freeride foiling. I have both.

Gustproof.
A pilot who can pump well, feather, weight the boom, lean on front foot, and change direction as needed.

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segler said..
Hey White, when you say ease in the gusts in 8-25, what sail(s) are you using?

I live near the **very gusty** Columbia gorge. I will be looking at getting sails this coming summer. I need gust-proof sails.

Yes, I have done a lot of studying about no-cam versus cammed sails for freeride foiling. I have both.

Hahah, in 8-25 knots its either 9.0 Phantom RF 4-cam foilracing sail or 4.9 S2Maui Dragon 4-baten wavesail for me. Either is fine.

In the end its more about trim then about your sail. Just make sure you use enough downhaul, people always think they need less outhaul than standard for foiling but that greatly reduces your range. Really only if you try to push the minimum and the wind is constant enough you might want to reduce downhaul, but that will also decrease acceleration and topspeed, so I'm not a big fan even in light winds. Makes the whole feeling very heavy too. My foilracing sail has quite a lot of loose, and I trim my wavesails the same for foiling as for wave.

Here's why I ask. I am out on the foil, doing just fine, minding my own business, life is good, cruising right along in 15 mph wind with a 6.4 on either my AFS-2 or LP foil in freeriding mode. So far so good.

A sharp and strong gust hits. I hold it in just fine, but the sudden acceleration FORWARD causes the foil to lift QUICKLY. If I am not ready for it, I foil out before I even realize what is happening. This is mostly with sharp and very strong gusts in the gorge. If the gusts are soft, but still strong, no big deal. I can adjust to those. It's those sharp ones that get me.

So, I am looking for advice about sails that tend to "breathe" the crazy sharp gusts more without the massive acceleration and subsequent foil-out.

My old cambered slalom sails work really well for foiling, but they want to accelerate in the gusts. This was fine, and even desirable, for finning on slalom gear, but not so fine for foiling. So, I need sails that tend to keep consistent power in sharp gusty conditions. I think the no-cam sails head in this direction, but the jury is still out for my next foiling quiver. The Goya Fringe is high on the list.

Yes, we get 8-25 mph here, too, with razor sharp gusts. My problem is that I have to just watch that crap from the beach rather than go out and fight it. I'd rather foil it.

Well, 8 - 25 is pretty crazy, but I'm loving my newly aquired Severne Foil Glides (6 & 7m). So effortless to use compared to my race sails.

Back on topic, ever noticed how passers by/ general public have a good look at the board with a foil on it? As if to say, wow, check that out!

Great to see windfoiling taking off (pardon the pun). Are many windfoilers riding strapless? I think with kitefoiling around 30% - 40% are strapless.

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segler said..
Here's why I ask. I am out on the foil, doing just fine, minding my own business, life is good, cruising right along in 15 mph wind with a 6.4 on either my AFS-2 or LP foil in freeriding mode. So far so good.

A sharp and strong gust hits. I hold it in just fine, but the sudden acceleration FORWARD causes the foil to lift QUICKLY. If I am not ready for it, I foil out before I even realize what is happening. This is mostly with sharp and very strong gusts in the gorge. If the gusts are soft, but still strong, no big deal. I can adjust to those. It's those sharp ones that get me.

So, I am looking for advice about sails that tend to "breathe" the crazy sharp gusts more without the massive acceleration and subsequent foil-out.

My old cambered slalom sails work really well for foiling, but they want to accelerate in the gusts. ThisSegler was fine, and even desirable, for finning on slalom gear, but not so fine for foiling. So, I need sails that tend to keep consistent power in sharp gusty conditions. I think the no-cam sails head in this direction, but the jury is still out for my next foiling quiver. The Goya Fringe is high on the list.

Yes, we get 8-25 mph here, too, with razor sharp gusts. My problem is that I have to just watch that crap from the beach rather than go out and fight it. I'd rather foil it.

Segler, I had the same problem as yourself using my beloved North/Duotone Warps, foiling. (SB Race foil) I recently purchased a dedicated foil sail and it has been a game changer for me. (Loft Skyscape 8.0) Unlike a slalom race sail they don't generate anywhere near the same lift. The center of effort is further forward and a gust hitting (or sheeting in) normally results in the nose of the board (and foil height) dropping down. I've found it so much more manageable in general and the wind range much broader. I was hesitant to spend the money on a foil sail but I'm so glad I did. Slalom and foil sails are really "chalk and cheese".

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DukeSilver said..
Great to see windfoiling taking off (pardon the pun). Are many windfoilers riding strapless? I think with kitefoiling around 30% - 40% are strapless.

Strapless windfoiling happens (<10% IMO) but is less common than in kitefoiling.

Many windfoilers only use the front strap though.

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segler said..
Here's why I ask. I am out on the foil, doing just fine, minding my own business, life is good, cruising right along in 15 mph wind with a 6.4 on either my AFS-2 or LP foil in freeriding mode. So far so good.

A sharp and strong gust hits. I hold it in just fine, but the sudden acceleration FORWARD causes the foil to lift QUICKLY. If I am not ready for it, I foil out before I even realize what is happening. This is mostly with sharp and very strong gusts in the gorge. If the gusts are soft, but still strong, no big deal. I can adjust to those. It's those sharp ones that get me.

So, I am looking for advice about sails that tend to "breathe" the crazy sharp gusts more without the massive acceleration and subsequent foil-out.

My old cambered slalom sails work really well for foiling, but they want to accelerate in the gusts. This was fine, and even desirable, for finning on slalom gear, but not so fine for foiling. So, I need sails that tend to keep consistent power in sharp gusty conditions. I think the no-cam sails head in this direction, but the jury is still out for my next foiling quiver. The Goya Fringe is high on the list.

Yes, we get 8-25 mph here, too, with razor sharp gusts. My problem is that I have to just watch that crap from the beach rather than go out and fight it. I'd rather foil it.

If my board goes up in gusts first thing i do is shift my lines back. I see many people riding their lines full 10cm further forward when foiling compared to normal sailing, that makes your sail very backhand heavy. Every gust then gets transformed into backhand power, which has to be compensated by back foot power (otherwise you'll get pulled over the board), which causes the board to rise.

With the same sailtrim, for foiling your lines should be about 1-2cm further forward maximum when foiling, if you crank the outhaul like a lot of people do (also helps with handling gusts) your lines should be pretty much at exactly the same place for foiling and normal windsurfing. Helps heaps in gusty weather.



I think most sails will do, my Dragons are relatively stiff sails, those balloony sails really dont do well in gusty weather, because the center of effort is all over the place. I personally prefer no cam sails in higher winds, and actually prefer wavesails over foilsails because they are designed to have a way wider windrange compared to a no cam/2cam foilsail, albeit a little less efficient for early flight.

I think 6.5 is really big for that windrange, half the time you could be normally planing with it (with my 88kg and a 115 freeride board I'd be going off with it 15 knots up). Thats why I go around 4.5 if its that kind of weather. You'll get through the lulls anyway, handling the gusts is the problem! Rig for the gusts, dont go for something in the middle, you're on a windfoil!



Lastly, just pull enough downhaul in your sail. Minimal loose leech is really only good for maximum light wind potential, and even then it makes sailing really heavy. I see a lot of windfoilers riding around with their battens sticking all the way round their mast and 0 loose leech. That will mean that every gust becomes power. You want to pull equal loose as you would freeriding, if you think you're gonna be overpowered in gusts, just trim for high wind, same as normal windsurfing. I personally don't crank the outhaul, maybe 1cm more than neutral max, where neutral is the point where I can pull the sails clew to between two fingers. This pretty much goes for all my no cam sails. If you have really balloony sails (freestyle sails for example) that might be different.

For my racing sails I crank the outhaul upwind, but thats just when the sails work best upwind, plus sometimes we are talking winds where 3.8 would also be enough to fly when I'm on 9.0.



If I'm on my freeride kit and an especially big gust hits and I have to reach I just hook out and put my backfoot in the middle/further forward and feather the sail. But thats more chickenness than necessity. I was out with 3.0 on the foil yesterday, wind from 20 to 37 knots in the biggest gust. Sometimes you'll just be a little out of control, but I suppose thats to be expected.



If you're riding a really big board (mine is 70x180), there's also the problem with rake becoming more prominent. A bad rake on the foil can really mess up your stability in gusts. People always stop talking to me when I go into rake so I just don't do that anymore..

Whiteofheart -- "If you're riding a really big board (mine is 70x180), there's also the problem with rake becoming more prominent. A bad rake on the foil can really mess up your stability in gusts. People always stop talking to me when I go into rake so I just don't do that anymore.."

What do you mean by "bad rake on the foil"? (Nose of the board pointing slightly down?)

Thanks

Spend an hour trying to wind foil ... get your first 50 meters of flight ... and then watch this video... and you won't need to ask what awesome about foiling:

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dejavu said..
Whiteofheart -- "If you're riding a really big board (mine is 70x180), there's also the problem with rake becoming more prominent. A bad rake on the foil can really mess up your stability in gusts. People always stop talking to me when I go into rake so I just don't do that anymore.."

What do you mean by "bad rake on the foil"? (Nose of the board pointing slightly down?)

Thanks

Nose too high you go flying in the gusts, too low and you drop in the gusts + the board sticks and if its more than a degree or so off that results in many catapults!

Rake just right and you just go bang on straight through all the gusts. Thats the one big secret to stability when foilracing with a big sail in a lot of wind.

Big gust, stay hooked and sheeted in, head upwind and sink the windward rail hard with front foot.
Upwind direction mitigates the gusts.

I used to race formula a lot. Rake mattered there, too, believe it or not.

My rake is fine for the two boards I foil with: 100x160 formula board, and 75x135 dedicated freeride foil board. (I presume the numbers are width x volume.) The sweet spot for me is the 75x135 board with a 6.4 3-cam in 15 mph not-so-gusty winds. Such days happen often enough out in the eastern Washington state desert that I can call them the sweet spot.

I had a day at the Event Site last summer where the wind was light-ish, but so crazy and sharply gusty (5 gusting 30) that I couldn't even get half way across the river in one piece. No fun. 4.5 no-cam sail. Arm-sailing off the harness. I guess such days call for watching the carnage from the beach.

So, per White, if you have the rake just right, and a sail that pushes down on mast track in gusts, you have it made. Sounds good.

My freeride board is 70x180 in width x length, 105L.

Sometimes its just no fun to go out, those days happen and there's really no one who can make anything of it. A windfoiler will always still have more ease in those conditions than a regular windsurfer tho.

Nope.
A 2 year windsurfer who's hungry has as much fun as you in 3-25.
A 37 year veteran of ws with a year in foiling hates that wind either sport, but goes out anyway to gain experience and complains afterward anyway.

Windfoilers are newbies.

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segler said..
I had a day at the Event Site last summer where the wind was light-ish, but so crazy and sharply gusty (5 gusting 30) that I couldn't even get half way across the river in one piece. No fun. 4.5 no-cam sail. Arm-sailing off the harness. I guess such days call for watching the carnage from the beach.

That's funny. Yeah, I'm a guy who will go out in ugly conditions, get thoroughly spanked, keep going out of sheer stubbornness, come in smiling, then still complain about it all.

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stehsegler said..
Spend an hour trying to wind foil ... get your first 50 meters of flight ... and then watch this video... and you won't need to ask what awesome about foiling:

Nice

What's awesome about foiling... the comradery at the "Australian Windfoil Championship 2020 - at RQYS"

New WWF video from Casey Treichler who has finally set up a web site for his boards (N.A. only for the moment) www.reefwarriorsboards.com/foilboard

Res Ipsa loquitur

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dejavu said..
Res Ipsa loquitur

The music had me thinking I was watching a Rob Rock (whom I adore) video there for a bit.

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dejavu said..
Res Ipsa loquitur

So good!

Do all race foilers do the footswitch during or just before the sail flip?

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stehsegler said..
Spend an hour trying to wind foil ... get your first 50 meters of flight ... and then watch this video... and you won't need to ask what awesome about foiling:

Hell yes. Great vid.

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thedoor said..

dejavu said..
Res Ipsa loquitur

So good!

Do all race foilers do the footswitch during or just before the sail flip?

Its a crap shoot. I found in the earlier stages that flipping the sail before you switch works better (consistent flights). But I've also done some simultaneously and switch feet first. Sorry, this really doesn't answer your question.

What's awesome about foiling? You're not tempted to do this!

rancisco Javier Collados that day we had gusts around 70kn and average 50kn 3.3 fair powered up! Those storm happen quite often in the swiss winter months ????

Foil stoke? Hell yes. I love the feeling of flying over water, very quiet; reminds me of a jet fighter hauling ass just above the water. And I'm getting in 3x the days the slapper sailors are.