Hi, upwind/downwind course racing on big foiling gear, like iQFoil, or 100 CM wide board, 9m sail, 1000 f.wing

I'm doing ok, good speed, railing the board to windward, flat sail, but still there are a few guys who point higher (they don't talk too much, to give tips for the rest)

But i can see they sometimes cross the sail a bit from the centerline (to windward), oversheeting while going upwind

What are your thoughts about this?
Is it a regular stance, or just a tool to point higher on certain circumstances?

And the other thing is harness lines.
I'm getting used to have them long, but it seems on cr?tical conditions (8-10 knots) that using them shorter going upwind Is better.

Thanks any help or feedback appreciated!

High boom, short lines, vertical stance, grab the uphaul in extreme light wind. Want to keep the sail vertical and powered, not at an angle.

I'm still working on it.

They will often shim up for more upwind power, at least last time I talked to them.

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aeroegnr said..


They will often shim up for more upwind power, at least last time I talked to them.

This here^^^ is the critical bit to pointing upwind well, I've found. The trick is learning to deal with the lift you need for upwind, when going downwind. I wouldn't be trying to oversheet the sail. You won't gain anything from it. Keep the back leg locked straight (generally aim to keep both legs straight) and swing up on lifting gusts when they happen.

keep in mind that maximum upwind angle isn't necessarily the quickest way to the top mark (if you're actually racing.). If they're oversheeting to keep the angle they're on, then they're more than likely sacrificing a lot of speed. It's about finding the middle ground where you've got a good amount of speed and angle. Not lots of speed but low angle, nor crazy good angle but low speed.


I find it beneficial to shorten the lines up upwind in lighter winds too, but I'm finding longer lines work well in all directions as soon as the rig gets powered up.

It's hard to say what shim to try without knowing what you're running and what you're weight is?

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Subsonic said..

aeroegnr said..


They will often shim up for more upwind power, at least last time I talked to them.

This here^^^ is the critical bit to pointing upwind well, I've found. The trick is learning to deal with the lift you need for upwind, when going downwind. I wouldn't be trying to oversheet the sail. You won't gain anything from it. Keep the back leg locked straight (generally aim to keep both legs straight) and swing up on lifting gusts when they happen.

keep in mind that maximum upwind angle isn't necessarily the quickest way to the top mark (if you're actually racing.). If they're oversheeting to keep the angle they're on, then they're more than likely sacrificing a lot of speed. It's about finding the middle ground where you've got a good amount of speed and angle. Not lots of speed but low angle, nor crazy good angle but low speed.


I find it beneficial to shorten the lines up upwind in lighter winds too, but I'm finding longer lines work well in all directions as soon as the rig gets powered up.

It's hard to say what shim to try without knowing what you're running and what you're weight is?

Is it fair to say in light wind go for the biggest shime you can ride and maintain your stance and control

Thanks for the tips!

Yesterday I was with the -2.0 shim, cause I have the old tail wing, thats -3.5? so I was like going on the -0.5 shim from the new one.

It seemed to be 16 knots and it was pretty much around 10-11, so this could be a good reason why I had a hard time pointing upwind.

Oh and I'm 82 kg. Around 176 cm height.
Boom really high (like it there)

Also my mastbase was back, but not far back all the way, around 3-4 cm from the square hole.

Have to play more with theese settings....

Run your mast base at the back, put at least +1* shim in the rear stabiliser, keep the rig upright and push your back leg hard, especially in a gust and point up into the breeze when over powered.

If I have plenty of wind, say 10 knots is the minimum with gusts to 12, then I use really short lines 23.5" lean over and forward and head hard upwind. But in 8-9 max wind gusts was slogging between gusts, so I let the Sailworks Quiktune lines all the way out so I can slog hooked in and not have to hold the 8.0 sail with my arms. Then when a gust hit me and I got up I was just holding boom with arms because the lines were so long, but I started moving my hips lower and found with my Dakine Reflex seat harness I could keep tension on the lines in flight, but could not go upwind that much, just cross wind and I could not lean out either, but was fast and fun. The short lines help me pull the sail over and go hard up wind, but in 8-9 knots max short lines do not work for me, just not enough wind pressure to support the pulled over sail and me leaning out.

a bit older now but some good close-ups of light wind upwind stance & technique from the French team

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bel29 said..
a bit older now but some good close-ups of light wind upwind stance & technique from the French team

I've been watching this for years and still amazed about how light the wind is and how they all bang the line so close together. Interesting how relatively flat the boards are in light wind.

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Paducah said..

bel29 said..
a bit older now but some good close-ups of light wind upwind stance & technique from the French team

I've been watching this for years and still amazed about how light the wind is and how they all bang the line so close together. Interesting how relatively flat the boards are in light wind.

The flatter board is something the OP might want to work on (they mentioned railing). That requires an upright rig plus long lines.
Railing seems to work best in higher wind, possibly by using the nose of the board to help control lift?

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Grantmac said..

Paducah said..

bel29 said..
a bit older now but some good close-ups of light wind upwind stance & technique from the French team

I've been watching this for years and still amazed about how light the wind is and how they all bang the line so close together. Interesting how relatively flat the boards are in light wind.

The flatter board is something the OP might want to work on (they mentioned railing). That requires an upright rig plus long lines.
Railing seems to work best in higher wind, possibly by using the nose of the board to help control lift?

All I know is I have a really hard time railing the board in light winds. I can feel and see the change in a gust as I rail up, and turn around and see the kink in the foil wake. It's easier with race gear and a big 9.0, not so much with slower camless freeride gear

Hi Manilo

Here is an older thread on upwind racing.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Upwind-technique-top-tips-please-

There are some older threads on racing technique if you haven't seen them.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Index-of-All-Technique-Threads?page=1

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aeroegnr said..

Grantmac said..

Paducah said..

bel29 said..
a bit older now but some good close-ups of light wind upwind stance & technique from the French team

I've been watching this for years and still amazed about how light the wind is and how they all bang the line so close together. Interesting how relatively flat the boards are in light wind.

The flatter board is something the OP might want to work on (they mentioned railing). That requires an upright rig plus long lines.
Railing seems to work best in higher wind, possibly by using the nose of the board to help control lift?

All I know is I have a really hard time railing the board in light winds. I can feel and see the change in a gust as I rail up, and turn around and see the kink in the foil wake. It's easier with race gear and a big 9.0, not so much with slower camless freeride gear

For clarity I by railing I mean putting the windward rail down.
The opposite of railing a raceboard/flying the fin on slalom.

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Grantmac said..

aeroegnr said..

Grantmac said..

Paducah said..

bel29 said..
a bit older now but some good close-ups of light wind upwind stance & technique from the French team

I've been watching this for years and still amazed about how light the wind is and how they all bang the line so close together. Interesting how relatively flat the boards are in light wind.

The flatter board is something the OP might want to work on (they mentioned railing). That requires an upright rig plus long lines.
Railing seems to work best in higher wind, possibly by using the nose of the board to help control lift?

All I know is I have a really hard time railing the board in light winds. I can feel and see the change in a gust as I rail up, and turn around and see the kink in the foil wake. It's easier with race gear and a big 9.0, not so much with slower camless freeride gear

For clarity I by railing I mean putting the windward rail down.
The opposite of railing a raceboard/flying the fin on slalom.

Yeah you lean to Windward and use the foil lift to push you upwind. Definitely feels more natural to me than railing on a fin because I have much less experience with that.

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berowne said..
Hi Manilo

Here is an older thread on upwind racing.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Upwind-technique-top-tips-please-

There are some older threads on racing technique if you haven't seen them.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Index-of-All-Technique-Threads?page=1

Thanks as always, sending the perfect links and advice !! It's so cool you're around this forum

Lets see how I do in the first races this weekend. The forecast shows 15-20 knots with a 0.8-1.0 meter chop/waves.

It's gonna be fun!!

Subsonic says above: "It's about finding the middle ground where you've got a good amount of speed and angle. Not lots of speed but low angle, nor crazy good angle but low speed."

This is what is called velocity made good, or vmg.

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Manilo said..
Hi, upwind/downwind course racing on big foiling gear, like iQFoil, or 100 CM wide board, 9m sail, 1000 f.wing

I'm doing ok, good speed, railing the board to windward, flat sail, but still there are a few guys who point higher (they don't talk too much, to give tips for the rest)

But i can see they sometimes cross the sail a bit from the centerline (to windward), oversheeting while going upwind

What are your thoughts about this?
Is it a regular stance, or just a tool to point higher on certain circumstances?

And the other thing is harness lines.
I'm getting used to have them long, but it seems on cr?tical conditions (8-10 knots) that using them shorter going upwind Is better.

Thanks any help or feedback appreciated!

I have the 1000 wing, 8.5 m freerace foil sail but a much narrower board (76 cm). What I have been doing the last few sessions is to point upwind and unhook. When unhooked, I play with my stance and the sail rake, arms position, etc. I am noticing that sometimes the configuration while using the harness is not optimal for pointing upwind so unhooking helps me find that perfect set up (and I poi t upwind higher without losing speed). Most likely this happens to me because I am still working on my ideal trim. I am sharing it as suggestion because it helped me to learn more about my trim.

I've found railing to increase control, but not necessarly upwind angle or speed. My key tips would be to extend to the maximum, especially shoulders back (7-stance), and pivot the board upwind instead of carving/railing it in light wind.

FWIW I was told recently that a lot of the IQ guys are running +0.5 shim (on the -2deg rear) regularly. I had been using the 0 shim for a long time, took about a half year break to work on other skills and just started trying that shim today. Kind of a bust today on wind but I did feel quite a bit different with that little tweak in power. Supposedly they don't bother much with the zero shim like I was running? Still lots of stance and technique for me to work out but before I took that break I was struggling a lot more to deal with extra lift.

That only leaves another half a degree to go to the largest stock +1 shim, and then moving the mast base further back for even more power. There were guys at one point moving their foot straps back with all those adjustments to get more upwind power but I don't know the specifics of the conditions.

There are now how many generations of the plus plus fuse? I see the 115++, evolution 120, and now mkII 120, all of which push the front wing even further forward than the 115+/115, so people are wanting the extra power for course racing. Just haven't encountered them in person because people on race gear here are almost always on IQ gear or slalom foil.

Yes, but iQ racers tune/train for specific formats, mainly reaching starts and broad reaches/downwind-type slalom courses in "low" wind, and up/downwind course racing in "more" wind. May not be what you want to do the whole time, so a different setting might still make sense for you (apart from all the other variables )

Well, after 8 races done on the weekend (12 min each), I learned some things.....

The 800 wing (Starboard) is not a good choice unless it's 20+ wind. I also rigged a 7.8 (slalom sail) instead of the 9.0 HGO which was terrible mistake (saturday only). I was too confident of the forecast.

Regarding upwind. I had good speed in general, but not the best angle. I mean there are moments I can trim the stance right, rail the Board, ride a little higher to get the windward rail without smashing the big chop.... But I couldn't mantain it, just for some moments.

I think one of the tips you gave me Is to straighten the legs, specially the back one. And not so sure I did it right

We were about 9 boards, with 3 of them just starting so the fleet was really 6.
I finished 3rd.... the last few races I was a bit closer to the top 2 guys, who were faster upwind

Settings for sunday:
1000 wing
-2 shim (remember I have the old tail wing that's 3.7?)
9.0 sail
Mast base back
82 kg

Wind around: 15 knots
Big chop

Maybe the best shim for the conditions was a -1.5 or -1.0
Downwind I had no trouble, I can go fully powered sending it ;)

Now back to training, and some gym too! (I'm pretty tired)

here's a google photos album (there are mixed categories)
photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNhYUXnUkSZWlZfIzqb2_N_nqUXDLHVgd6oBjX0i6a9Uup1Hm2T8jUf7KUCsAQ0zA?key=M2V3Zms5Mm0yRDlvX1VjNjZKUW91MWZQMDBfdTZnhttps://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNhYUXnUkSZWlZfIzqb2_N_nqUXDLHVgd6oBjX0i6a9Uup1Hm2T8jUf7KUCsAQ0zA?key=M2V3Zms5Mm0yRDlvX1VjNjZKUW91MWZQMDBfdTZn

Rather than opening a new topic I'll shoot my question here. Here's a video of mine from a few days ago in perfect conditions for upwind practice. I'm trying to do lots of "pinching" upwind sacrificing speed for angle and that was the point of this run. The reason I'm posting this is the crash at the end. This is a recurring problem for me and it's not a consistent one that I can replicate.

At the end of the footage you can see what I can only describe as the windward side of the front wing ventilating, the leeward side holding its flow and the board being pivoted to windward resulting in a crash. Sometimes I can recover from this and when I look back to see my trail there's lots of air/foam at that spot. Sometimes it happens even when I'm just cruising upright but really rare during downwinders. I'm inclined to think it's not the mast ventilating because that is usually more of a vertical drop as opposed to the pivoting feeling, might be wrong there. Help?

streamable.com/80j80u

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Dishpet said..
Rather than opening a new topic I'll shoot my question here. Here's a video of mine from a few days ago in perfect conditions for upwind practice. I'm trying to do lots of "pinching" upwind sacrificing speed for angle and that was the point of this run. The reason I'm posting this is the crash at the end. This is a recurring problem for me and it's not a consistent one that I can replicate.

At the end of the footage you can see what I can only describe as the windward side of the front wing ventilating, the leeward side holding its flow and the board being pivoted to windward resulting in a crash. Sometimes I can recover from this and when I look back to see my trail there's lots of air/foam at that spot. Sometimes it happens even when I'm just cruising upright but really rare during downwinders. I'm inclined to think it's not the mast ventilating because that is usually more of a vertical drop as opposed to the pivoting feeling, might be wrong there. Help?

streamable.com/80j80u

I've had the similar issue. My stance isn't great (still working on it), and I seem to have much less margin for ventilation when railing. WoH had an interesting comment above.

Anyway, here's an onboard video of it I captured, slowed down and what that looks like. Not a lot of margin to ventilation with wide boards when you start railing to windward.

@aeroegnr Yeah that's exactly what's going on. Great footage and recovery, gave me second-hand ptsd. The inconsistency of the thing is what's driving me crazy.

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Dishpet said..
@aeroegnr Yeah that's exactly what's going on. Great footage and recovery, gave me second-hand ptsd. The inconsistency of the thing is what's driving me crazy.

I don't have an answer but I'll play with more front toe pressure and harness weight forward to flatten out the board when riding high.

I think if you rail you risk ventilating the whole foil. You can see on zoomed in video that the bubble attaches and kills the lift. I can tell that I have heel pressure from that video on the front vs. toe pressure that would flatten it and keep the nose down.

Maybe sand the foil to prevent ventilating?

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FormuIa said..
Maybe sand the foil to prevent ventilating?

Maybe, it's hard to say. I think that Nico's video was specific to ventilation down the mast at high speeds. In the upwind case where a wing tip breaches, maybe it could help? I haven't wanted to sand the IQFoil set though as they are very strict about that vs. PWA.

I know the foilstyler guys and foil pump guys will carve with a tip out, some played around with wing fences to keep the bubble from progressing further inboard on the wing.

I've felt/heard small tip breaches and recovered but I try to avoid them. This particular one was so big so fast that I lost a lot of lift anyway due to klutzy piloting

For instance, see 1:05. I was playing around with stance to see if it helped my top speed more downwind (it didn't) and when I carved upwind I lost the tip due to a breach but kept the speed up and kept flying. Similar thing as 0:50 but the breach was less visible and I was trying to extend as far as I could to get higher.

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FormuIa said..
Maybe sand the foil to prevent ventilating?

afaik, the IQFoil rules are pretty limiting on what you can sand. In the meantime, make sure that all your surfaces are clean and free of oily spots, finger prints, tefgel, etc. Just a few touches from a fingers with tefgel will make a wing ventilate a lot more readily.

Heard a story of a world class foiling A-cat guy who would go ballistic any time someone even put a finger on his foils. Probably an over reaction but ...

Had another 3 hour session today. The issue persists, most times happening while going upwind. I've talked to fellow foilers at the beach after the session and none report these issues. I'm wondering if our local IQers might have something to add, I'll ask and post once I get to them.

I've just looked at the last youtube video....
It looks like there's a frontwing or fuselage ventilation, I can see an air bubble coming from the front of the foil.

Any scratches or tiny holes/spaces?
Or maybe a loose wing?

I used to have similar issue but in the rear wing, the shim was a bit broken, and there was some air space between the shim and the fuselage, causing strange movements at some speeds while riding

Check every detail of your foil, wings, etc.
It's pretty rare cause your foil is all in the water.....

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Manilo said..
I've just looked at the last youtube video....
It looks like there's a frontwing or fuselage ventilation, I can see an air bubble coming from the front of the foil.

Any scratches or tiny holes/spaces?
Or maybe a loose wing?

I used to have similar issue but in the rear wing, the shim was a bit broken, and there was some air space between the shim and the fuselage, causing strange movements at some speeds while riding

Check every detail of your foil, wings, etc.
It's pretty rare cause your foil is all in the water.....

Check it out in slow motion. One the tip comes out and ventilates, the other looks like I got almost the entire left wing out.

If there is a kosher way to deal with any nicks in the wing that may help but around here there are weeds that will get caught and do the same or worse.