Small sail foiling

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Created by

MartyySurf > 9 months ago, 29 Apr 2023

dimacced

176 posts

5 May 2023 2:57pm

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CoreAS said..

dimacced said..

stehsegler said..
Have a look at Ben's technique at 2:16. He was on a 5.0 foil sail with wind about 8 knts . BTW Balz uses a 4.8 Foil Freek... which is a freestyle sail with very small cambers. The advantage of the freestyle / dedicated foil sails is that they are designed for lift.

How can you state there were 8 knts? I once mesured the wind just to understand how much was enough to get going, assuming the wind meter was accurate 8 knts is very very little wind, should not be any gust to give you a chanche I doubt anyone could get flying with a 5.0 in that condition, other than a gorilla weighting 30 kg pumping like hell.
when talking about wind speed we need to talk about ranges, since is quite never so constant, and I bet if we pay right attention in those gusts we have an opportunity to fly ...I doubt anyone could in 8 knts with 5.0... myself not for sure youst to be direct and put the skills in the equation as well. People with skills, even Balz, they speak range...for him light wind is 8-15, but is not to say he gets flying in 8 knts he probably can stay on the foil when there is a 8 knt lull, but the get up he needs more than that expecially with small sails he uses.

Then on measuring wind, 8 knts at sea or on the beach? Onshore or offshore. is that average on what period? Is that the max, the min?Is there swell to help in getting speed?
Since the action of getting airborn is taking place in few seconds and the most important phase is the very first pumps, is that wind we should measure, and is not easy at all, most of our statements on wind strenght are qualitative and inaccurate to drive reliable conclusion on what is the minimum to get flying with a certain kit combo..I know that since I tried, and failed in doing so. Beginning of the season when you are not yet used to wind, a small wind seem more than it is, forward in the season is the opposite, expecially for those that are not sailing that much, so perception play tricks on us as well.

Just sharing my own experience on low wind

cheers

Edoardo

You are correct in saying how can one measure wind accurately because as we know it's a constant variable but if you have been windsurfing a reasonable amount of time (nearly 40 years for me) you know what 10 knots is just from time on water alone.

Will there be 12 knots somewhere out on the water, yes absolutely and if I am foiling by myself and know its super light less than 10 knots and record a video, then someone else comes along 15 mins later and the wind has swung and its more 10-14 knots then we have both recorded a completely different experience and neither of us are wrong but I have ridden 99% in 10 knots and you have ridden in 14 knots.

it is a combination of perfect equipment set up, feet pressure, rig pump, bearing off at right angles etc...once you get the foil to engage you can absolutely foil up in 8-10 knots with a small sail. first video on a 5.0 in 9-12 knots and second video on a 5.8 in 5-10.

I beleieve we are in agreement, the fact that average wind is 10 does not mean you get flying in 10, you still fly in 10, or maybe you used swell energy to get up, there are many things you can leverage on to get up on the foil, then once up is completely different story, I got surprised to be foiling with no wind for 100m before the next puff gets in, so I do believe is possible in average 10 to foil, though not so easy to get up in 10 when there is nothing else to help you as happens some days here in Italy. Mediterranean sea is not the ocen you do not get swell, just wind driven waves and when there is no wind there is nothing else most of the times...maybe there are margins in my technique, but I don't see many others flying either with such small sails.
I am impressed you get flying with 5.8 in 5-10 and you are heavier than I am, for me that is no wind...signs I need to practice more...though I see you used in that occasion a monster foil wing...my biggest is 1000scm, also the PTM926 is @1200+scm is bigger than mine, I guess these wind ranges will still be not accessible to me unless getting those big wings.

One question; I see you are using a full carbon set-up, is that making any difference vs light wind foiling potential? I am using alu mast so far and never tested a carbon one.

Cheers

stehsegler

3557 posts

5 May 2023 4:23pm

Have a look at the video. They get flying because they pump both sail and board onto the plane bringing the foil past its stall speed. Once the board leaves the water you easily will have gone past the stall speed of the foil.

dimacced

176 posts

5 May 2023 8:19pm

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stehsegler said..
Have a look at the video. They get flying because they pump both sail and board onto the plane bringing the foil past its stall speed. Once the board leaves the water you easily will have gone past the stall speed of the foil.

Yea I try to do the same, I designed and built myself a board with that in mind, and I succeed most of the time but stall speed depends on the wing, high aspect typically have higher stall speed, my wing 1000 size is a mid aspect, I would say similar to PTM926 and balz 799 kind of, though to get flying in 5-10 you need either big surface or low stall, big surface means you need low angle of attack for same lift, so you get far from stall but at the expence of manoeuverability, low stall speed overcome the problem at the expence of glide, it is always a compromise. In those condition my wing is too small, under 10 knts with small sails is very challenging...also because I may not be as proficient as Ben Severne or CoreAs of course. At the very root though I don't know how pleasant would be to glide at 5-10, would be very slow and you probably can't do much on the foil rather than going straight, unless you do have swell....then is another story, in that case once you get locked to the wave you almost do not need the sail anymore.
Nevrtheless, I always tend to think that skills make more difference than equipment in most of the sports at our recreational level (professionals are all proficient, so the kit they use may have some relevance)...sot this is for me a stimulus to get better at pumping :-)

jdfoils

435 posts

5 May 2023 10:27pm

Except high aspect pump better and are easier to get up to speed. I foil earlier on a ptm930 (950cm2) high aspect then on ptm926 (1260cm2) mid aspect and both much earlier then the shovel-shaped pfi730 (1456cm2)

dimacced

176 posts

5 May 2023 11:29pm

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jdfoils said..
Except high aspect pump better and are easier to get up to speed. I foil earlier on a ptm930 (950cm2) high aspect then on ptm926 (1260cm2) mid aspect and both much earlier then the shovel-shaped pfi730 (1456cm2)

Hello Jdfoils, I had the same impression coming from the SS76 when moving to the fanatic 1000, though the topic above was on wind strenght, and for both the SS76 and the fanatic 1000 I was needing more or less same wind strenght to get going, but the fanatic was quicjker to get airborn, more pumpable and once in the air was gliding better, more free so to say and on lulls was gliding for much longer distance. I am not able to correlate the two aspects though: how early they get airborn given a certain wind strenght and what is given a sail size the minimum wind that the foil is able to get you airborn being the rider the same, the efficiency would favour the high aspect, but I guess it depends very much on rider ability, you may not need that much pumping to reach minimum flight speed on the low AR, though acceleration is slow and once in the air you are very slow, this I would say intuitively. It is also to be considered that overall resistance is including not only front wing but also mast, fuselage and stabilizer and the board wetted surface, and the mast and board before getting airborn have an important component that may make the higher resistance of the wings less important in the very early phases so that passive riding may favor the low aspect in this very early phase.

jdfoils

435 posts

6 May 2023 1:57am

Yea, no one would classify me as a passive rider

I can tell you what the water looks like when I take off, I can even tell you what the wind meter on the beach says... What I can't tell you is what strength the wind is where I am when I take off - this really is an apparent wind sport.

Cracks me up when people say 10-12; what instruments are they using to measure true wind speed on their board?

CoreAS

923 posts

6 May 2023 11:49pm

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jdfoils said..
Yea, no one would classify me as a passive rider

What's even funnier are folk arguing about wind speed...it doesn't matter how many videos are posted you always get a couple people butt hurt over "how do you know how windy it really is" or "10-15 that its windy in my area"...you can't win

From my experience the ptm930 HA has no early pumping advantage over the ptm926 MA or G900 MA, the ptm930 I found also has roll issues at speed going across the wind and drops significantly earlier than MA foils at stall speeds, it does point upwind and glide off the wind nicely though.

@dimacced, yes the phantasm carbon mast has much better performance in lighter winds than the hover glide mast. However that does not apply to all manufactures. The phantasm is 12k carbon is very stiff so it responds well to pumping the foil.

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